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Darwin’s Sad Legacy (evolution invented to give death and suffering a positive explanation?)
AiG ^ | April 14, 2009 | Dr. Tommy Mitchell

Posted on 04/15/2009 10:52:09 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts

The common thread throughout Darwin’s life was his continual struggle with the issue of death and suffering. He was never able to reconcile the existence of death, disease, and struggle with the character of a loving God:

I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice.[1]

Darwin was unable to understand why a loving Creator God would allow the horrible things he witnessed in nature and everyday life. Animals fed on one another; creatures ripped each other apart; women died in childbirth, etc. The world seemed heartless and cruel. Darwin’s eventual expansion of the concept of evolution seemed to provide a somewhat positive purpose for the suffering and death he could not explain.

Two of Darwin’s biographers went so far as to imply that...

(Excerpt) Read more at answersingenesis.org ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: answersingenesis; creation; darwin; evolution; goodgodimnutz; happiness; intelligentdesign; joy; moralabsolutes; oldearthspeculation; purpose; religionofatheism; science
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1 posted on 04/15/2009 10:52:09 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: DevNet

This one’s for you, DevNet.


2 posted on 04/15/2009 10:53:15 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
evolution invented to give death and suffering a positive explanation?

I thought that's why God* and religion were invented. . .

/shrug
3 posted on 04/15/2009 10:54:30 AM PDT by Filo (Darwin was right!)
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To: GodGunsGuts; Filo

See my tagline.

God did not invent death and evil.


4 posted on 04/15/2009 11:00:15 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: Filo

Actually, according to the Bible, we were once perfect, and then rebelled against God, resulting in sin, suffering, degeneration, and death. Evolution, has it completely the other way around. We start from pond-scum, and godless random processes, shaped by suffering and death, slowly build us toward perfection.


5 posted on 04/15/2009 11:01:03 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: fishtank

Good one!...and oh sooooo true!!!


6 posted on 04/15/2009 11:01:40 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: fishtank

Then who did.


7 posted on 04/15/2009 11:03:41 AM PDT by DevNet (What's past is prologue)
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To: GodGunsGuts

That which is perfect can not fail.


8 posted on 04/15/2009 11:04:13 AM PDT by DevNet (What's past is prologue)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Get over evolution already - it’s as real as the earth orbiting the sun or the expansion of the universe. None of that means anyone’s faith in God or religion should be abandoned - I know plenty of 13 year olds who are mature and secure enough in their faith to grasp that concept.


9 posted on 04/15/2009 11:08:57 AM PDT by PC99
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To: GodGunsGuts
Actually, according to the Bible, we were once perfect, and then rebelled against God,

If we were perfect, how could we make the error of sinning against God? A perfect being would never make that error now could he?
10 posted on 04/15/2009 11:09:10 AM PDT by Kozak (USA 7/4/1776 to 1/20/2009 Requiescat In Pace)
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To: DevNet

I should have said that God did not invent rebellion against Him.

God subjected creation to the curse of death, but the evil of Lucifer preceded God’s cursing.

God invented the first life and also invented the rebirth of life that was demonstrated by the Rez.


11 posted on 04/15/2009 11:16:20 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: GodGunsGuts

“The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.”

Too many political conservatives don’t understand that truth. Rush Limbaugh being one of them.


12 posted on 04/15/2009 11:17:42 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: Kozak

It’s called free will.


13 posted on 04/15/2009 11:18:12 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: editor-surveyor; metmom; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; GourmetDan; MrB; valkyry1; DaveLoneRanger; ...

Ping!


14 posted on 04/15/2009 11:19:03 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: PC99

==Get over evolution already - it’s as real as the earth orbiting the sun or the expansion of the universe

Wrong. Darwin’s ToE is a materialist fairytale, based on zero evidence (other than a few minor variations between finches), and was invented steal credit from, and ultimately take the place of, God’s creation account in Genesis. And guess what, it’s not working...the HMS Beagle is going down, despite being subsidized by the government, and despite our courts banning the teaching of the other side in our public schools and universities. Even the Evos are abandoning the HMS Beagle in search of a new God-denying evolutionary ship!


15 posted on 04/15/2009 11:32:18 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: editor-surveyor; metmom; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; GourmetDan; MrB; valkyry1; DaveLoneRanger; ...
Do you suppose the following has anything to do with Ichy's screenname?

"I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice.

16 posted on 04/15/2009 11:35:09 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: Kozak

A being who is created perfect has a perfectly free will and is perfectly free to choose between good and evil actions.


17 posted on 04/15/2009 11:39:41 AM PDT by B-Chan (Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?)
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To: GodGunsGuts
Actually, according to the Bible [...]

When you start quoting from a book which combines fiction with oral histories and colloquial wisdom you've already lost the debate. . .
18 posted on 04/15/2009 11:42:15 AM PDT by Filo (Darwin was right!)
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To: GodGunsGuts
Darwin’s ToE is a materialist fairytale, based on zero evidence that I can understand.

Fixed it for ya.

In reality the evidence supporting Evolution is overwhelming.
19 posted on 04/15/2009 11:44:10 AM PDT by Filo (Darwin was right!)
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To: Filo
Oh please, if it's so overwhelming, then why was Darwood forced to write Origins as nothing more than a long argument, devoid of data? How come they Evos are publishing articles with such titles as "What Darwin Didn't Know" or "Darwin was Wrong" or "Darwin Must Die So Evolution Can Live"??? Let's face it, the Evos are on the run, and about the last person to realize it is you. LOL
20 posted on 04/15/2009 11:49:40 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: PC99; GodGunsGuts
"Get over evolution already - it’s as real as the earth orbiting the sun or the expansion of the universe. None of that means anyone’s faith in God or religion should be abandoned - I know plenty of 13 year olds who are mature and secure enough in their faith to grasp that concept."

Oops.

I know some scientists who were/are a bit older than 13 years old who acknowledge the equivalence of the geokinetic and geocentric models.

“Can we formulate physical laws so that they are valid for all CS [coordinate systems], not only those moving uniformly, but also those moving quite arbitrarily, relative to each other? […] The struggle, so violent in the early days of science, between the views of Ptolemy and Copernicus would then be quite meaningless. Either CS could be used with equal justification. The two sentences: “the sun is at rest and the earth moves” or “the sun moves and the earth is at rest” would simply mean two different conventions concerning two different CS.”

Einstein, A. and Infeld, L. (1938) The Evolution of Physics, p.212 (p.248 in original 1938 ed.); Note: CS = coordinate system

“The relation of the two pictures [geocentricity and heliocentricity] is reduced to a mere coordinate transformation and it is the main tenet of the Einstein theory that any two ways of looking at the world which are related to each other by a coordinate transformation are entirely equivalent from a physical point of view.... Today we cannot say that the Copernican theory is ‘right’ and the Ptolemaic theory ‘wrong’ in any meaningful physical sense.”

Hoyle, Fred. Nicolaus Copernicus. London: Heinemann Educational Books Ltd., 1973.

"...Thus we may return to Ptolemy's point of view of a 'motionless earth'...One has to show that the transformed metric can be regarded as produced according to Einstein's field equations, by distant rotating masses. This has been done by Thirring. He calculated a field due to a rotating, hollow, thick-walled sphere and proved that inside the cavity it behaved as though there were centrifugal and other inertial forces usually attributed to absolute space. Thus from Einstein's point of view, Ptolemy and Copernicus are equally right."

Born, Max. "Einstein's Theory of Relativity",Dover Publications,1962, pgs 344 & 345:

"People need to be aware that there is a range of models that could explain the observations,” Ellis argues. “For instance, I can construct you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its center, and you cannot disprove it based on observations.” Ellis has published a paper on this. “You can only exclude it on philosophical grounds. In my view there is absolutely nothing wrong in that. What I want to bring into the open is the fact that we are using philosophical criteria in choosing our models. A lot of cosmology tries to hide that.”

Ellis, George, in Scientific American, "Thinking Globally, Acting Universally", October 1995

Here is another scientist who is a bit older than 13 years old who may not be convinced that the expansion of the universe is as 'real' as you think either.

You are exactly correct that evolution is not any more 'real' than geokinetics and the expansion of the universe, but not in the way that you first thought.

21 posted on 04/15/2009 11:50:14 AM PDT by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
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To: GodGunsGuts
Oh please, if it's so overwhelming, then why was Darwood forced to write Origins as nothing more than a long argument, devoid of data?

There is plenty of data in Origins, but as the initial theory it is, by nature, going to be fairly sparse.

How come they Evos are publishing articles with such titles as "What Darwin Didn't Know" or "Darwin was Wrong" or "Darwin Must Die So Evolution Can Live"???

Making stuff up doesn't really do much to support your argument. But still, Darwin was wrong about some facts and there was lots he didn't know. Regardless he still came to the correct conclusions about how species came to be even if he got some of the finer details a bit wrong.

Science, unlike religion, is not dogmatic. If facts change then the theories adopt to them.

Plenty has been discovered that has refined various aspects of Evolution over time. Different branches, different origins for particular species, different sources for functional elements, etc. None if it, however, has undermined the basic premise of evolution. Not once. Nor will it ever.

Evolution deals with very large systems and minute bits of data. What's most astounding about it is how consistently it all lines up. Let's face it, the Evos are on the run, and about the last person to realize it is you.

Not even close. Evolution is solid science and nobody is on the run except the desperate bible-thumpers and their irrational ilk.

Reality bites. Refusing to understand reality? That's something to LOL over.












22 posted on 04/15/2009 12:09:53 PM PDT by Filo (Darwin was right!)
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To: GodGunsGuts
Hello, my good friend. May God continue to bless you.

There are indications in the Bible that man was created to redeem creation.

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who are the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. (Romans 8:20-23 ESV)

It's not a hill I would die on, but I believe that part of Adam's original purpose was to redeem creation that had already been corrupted by Satan. Satan had already sinned, fallen from glory, and was waiting to deceive Adam and Eve not terribly long after they were created.

When was creation subjected to futility? And who subjected it to futility?

For those who believe that God could not have created animal death as part of the original creation, Satan's earlier fall and corruption of the earth explains very well the fact that God initially placed humans in a special place, the Garden of Eden, where at least some normal rules of nature did not apply. When Adam and Eve sinned, they were banished from the special place called Eden and forced into the outside world. While it is true that God cursed creation because of man, he spoke of making it more difficult for men to make their living and more difficult for women to bear children -- not to cause T. Rex to stop being a vegetarian and begin eating meat.

Again, this is mostly speculation. Other than the verse I cited and a few other verses, the Bible has little to say on the subject.

23 posted on 04/15/2009 12:13:41 PM PDT by DallasMike
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To: Filo
"Science, unlike religion, is not dogmatic. If facts change then the theories adopt to them."

Science, like religion, is absolutely dogmatic. Facts may change and theories may change but philosophical naturalism is always assumed 'a priori'.

"Plenty has been discovered that has refined various aspects of Evolution over time. Different branches, different origins for particular species, different sources for functional elements, etc. None if it, however, has undermined the basic premise of evolution. Not once. Nor will it ever."

That's correct. The basic premise of evolution is philosophical naturalism. Since that is assumed 'a priori', nothing can ever undermine that assumption.

"Not even close. Evolution is solid science and nobody is on the run except the desperate bible-thumpers and their irrational ilk."

Uh oh. You used the 'ilk' word. That automatically makes you 'the winner'. No evolutionist has ever been desperate or irrational enough to fake evidence.

"Reality bites. Refusing to understand reality? That's something to LOL over."

It sure is. LOL!

24 posted on 04/15/2009 12:23:04 PM PDT by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
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To: Filo
What's most astounding about it is how consistently it all lines up.

Evolution is solid science...

(Nothing) has undermined the basic premise of evolution. Not once. Nor will it ever.

Wow, that's powerful stuff! You've convinced me.!

I'm switching sides!

25 posted on 04/15/2009 12:26:15 PM PDT by Cedric
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To: Filo
==There is plenty of data in Origins, but as the initial theory it is, by nature, going to be fairly sparse.

Ok, this is the one and only graph in , pray tell, where is the data to back up those data points on Darwood's so-called "Tree of Life"???

==Making stuff up doesn't really do much to support your argument

See also:

Darwinism Must Die So That Evolution May Live - NYTimes.com

See also:

And now that the have discovered that the genome is at least 93% functional (as opposed 97% "junk" as the Evos predicted), that is going to throw all the Evo's phylogenetic trees that supposedly show common ancestry into complete disarray. Indeed, that is one of the reasons the Evos themselves are finally being forced to cut down darwood's tree (just as creationists have been predicting all along). LOL!!!

26 posted on 04/15/2009 12:28:18 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

And a “perfect” man would choose the correct answer given his free will. Therefor according you we were created with flawed judgment.


27 posted on 04/15/2009 12:30:48 PM PDT by Kozak (USA 7/4/1776 to 1/20/2009 Requiescat In Pace)
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To: GodGunsGuts
Oh please, if it's so overwhelming, then why was Darwood forced to write Origins as nothing more than a long argument, devoid of data?

Thats science. You look for evidence, formulate a theory, and test it against the evidence. Latter scientists add confirmatory evidence, or refute it with contradictory evidence and a new theory. Starting with a religious text is called "religion" and not science. Something you cretins don't seem to get.
28 posted on 04/15/2009 12:34:49 PM PDT by Kozak (USA 7/4/1776 to 1/20/2009 Requiescat In Pace)
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To: Kozak
"Thats science. You look for evidence, formulate a theory, and test it against the evidence. Latter scientists add confirmatory evidence, or refute it with contradictory evidence and a new theory. Starting with a religious text is called "religion" and not science."

What you refuse to recognize is that 'science' is based on the assumption of philosophical naturalism; that is the assumption that the natural world is all that exists. Given that 'a priori' assumption you cannot return any answer other than a 'natural' one. Unfortunately, assuming philosophical naturalism is a philosophical choice, not an empirical one.

"Something you cretins don't seem to get."

Take a look in the mirror on that one.

29 posted on 04/15/2009 12:41:59 PM PDT by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
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To: Kozak

That’s the point. Darwood couldn’t find any evidence to back up his lame attempt to completely reinterpret the entire history of biological. He started with the conclusion, couldn’t find any evidence to back it up, and published his conclusion anyway—and the “unfulfilled” atheists and agnostics of his day drank it up like Kool-Aid on a hot summer day.


30 posted on 04/15/2009 12:44:55 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: Kozak
Starting with a religious text is called "religion" and not science. Something you cretins don't seem to get.

Consider someone finding a diary that purports to be a record of the movements of the Continental Army by a soldier in it during the Revolution. Would you consider using it to interpret archaeological field data to be a "religious" exercise? Of course not. But that is what you are doing when you assume there is something "religious" about using historical documentation like Genesis to interpret field data. The fact that it has religous implications does not mean it is a "religious" exercise.

31 posted on 04/15/2009 12:46:38 PM PDT by Liberty1970 (Democrats are not in control. God is. And Thank God for that!)
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To: GourmetDan

Great tagline!


32 posted on 04/15/2009 12:48:23 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
"Great tagline!"

You'd almost think that God was omniscient and in control, huh? ;-)

33 posted on 04/15/2009 12:51:14 PM PDT by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
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To: Kozak
"Darwin’s Sad Legacy (evolution invented to give death and suffering a positive explanation?)"

Actually, evolution was invented to give nasty, spiteful, passive-aggressive nerds something to do after high school.

34 posted on 04/15/2009 12:52:42 PM PDT by Cedric
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To: GodGunsGuts

sure sounds liek it- sounds liek he’s hiding behind another screen name perhaps


35 posted on 04/15/2009 1:07:11 PM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: CottShop

Is his old screenname no longer among us?


36 posted on 04/15/2009 1:10:23 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: Kozak

[[Starting with a religious text is called “religion” and not science.]]

Mmmm Yes- A ‘religious text’ such as ‘Nature did it- Nature was capable of violating several key scientific laws, and nature invented information’ - Yup- you’re right- that’s NOT science!


37 posted on 04/15/2009 1:15:20 PM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: Cedric

[[Actually, evolution was invented to give nasty, spiteful, passive-aggressive nerds something to do after high school.]]

Lol- perfect! Spot on


38 posted on 04/15/2009 1:17:08 PM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: GodGunsGuts

I dunno- I haven’;t seen him post in a long time- and it’s not beyond folks to have two screen names so they can bash others while kepping hteir main screen name ‘secure’ and ‘reputable’ I’ve seen soem do this a few times on various forums- they a’ct professional’ with hteir main screen name, and then sign in under a different one, and really let hteir ugly side show- but more often then not, their terminology and writing style gives htem away


39 posted on 04/15/2009 1:20:27 PM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: GodGunsGuts

What history of biology? The Bible? That’s your scientific basis? Fine for RELIGION. Not Science.


40 posted on 04/15/2009 1:36:16 PM PDT by Kozak (USA 7/4/1776 to 1/20/2009 Requiescat In Pace)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Fools.


41 posted on 04/15/2009 1:37:03 PM PDT by Glenn (Free Venezuela!)
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To: GourmetDan
Science, like religion, is absolutely dogmatic. Facts may change and theories may change but philosophical naturalism is always assumed 'a priori'.

Not assumed - proven.

That's correct. The basic premise of evolution is philosophical naturalism. Since that is assumed 'a priori', nothing can ever undermine that assumption.

Exactly. The fact that things are rational, predictable and provable is assumed much like the sum of 2+2 is "assumed."

That's a far cry from attributing that which we don't (or, in some cases, can't) understand to the great ugga bugga in the sky.

Uh oh. You used the 'ilk' word. That automatically makes you 'the winner'. No evolutionist has ever been desperate or irrational enough to fake evidence.

The difference is that if they do they are eventually found out and the results corrected as happened with the Piltdown man hoax.

The biblical hoax hasn't been fixed yet. . .
42 posted on 04/15/2009 1:38:54 PM PDT by Filo (Darwin was right!)
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To: Cedric
Wow, that's powerful stuff! You've convinced me.!

I wasn't trying to convince you. You'd have to be convinced to read some books and I'm quite sure that's not gonna happen. . .
43 posted on 04/15/2009 1:39:49 PM PDT by Filo (Darwin was right!)
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To: Glenn
I know! You would think the Temple of Darwinistic Materialism would realize that their fanciful creation myth is just a sad attempt to put a positive spin on suffering and death. Duh!
44 posted on 04/15/2009 1:40:32 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: Filo
I wasn't trying to convince you.

Ya, I know. You're trying to convince yourself.

45 posted on 04/15/2009 1:43:35 PM PDT by Cedric
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To: GodGunsGuts
Ok, this is the one and only graph in , pray tell, where is the data to back up those data points on Darwood's so-called "Tree of Life"???

There is plenty of other observational data. Not all data is graphical.

Funny thing, dearth of "evidence" aside - Darwin was still right!

And which of those articles that you pictured but clearly didn't read debunked Evolution and "proved" or even supported creationism?

And now that the have discovered that the genome is at least 93% functional (as opposed 97% "junk" as the Evos predicted), that is going to throw all the Evo's phylogenetic trees that supposedly show common ancestry into complete disarray. Indeed, that is one of the reasons the Evos themselves are finally being forced to cut down darwood's tree (just as creationists have been predicting all along). LOL!!!

Which, again, does nothing to disprove Evolution - even with your falsifications.
46 posted on 04/15/2009 1:48:19 PM PDT by Filo (Darwin was right!)
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To: Cedric
Ya, I know. You're trying to convince yourself.

No need there. I already know the truth and I also know how to identify those who will never understand it.
47 posted on 04/15/2009 1:49:07 PM PDT by Filo (Darwin was right!)
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To: Filo
Dearth of "evidence" aside - Darwin was still right!

If I pay for the bumper sticker will you put it on your Volvo?!

48 posted on 04/15/2009 1:53:50 PM PDT by Cedric
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To: Cedric
If I pay for the bumper sticker will you put it on your Volvo?!

I wouldn't drive a POS like that, but I'll be happy to put it on my Olds (right next to my "Preserve Freedom - Kill Liberals" bumper banner.

Sorry, but no bumper stickers on the 'Vette.

Of course your misrepresentation above is par for the course with 'thumpers.
49 posted on 04/15/2009 1:56:23 PM PDT by Filo (Darwin was right!)
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To: Filo

So now you admit that Darwood was faced with a “dearth of evidence” when he dishonestly decided to push forward with his materialist creation myth. If I didn’t know any better I might think you’re starting to make some progress. But then you had to go against your own better judgment and declare that Darwood was “right” anyway. Ok, I’ll bite, give me the top three reasons why you think Darwood was “right”, despite the “dearth” of supporting evidence, and despite the mountain of falsifying evidence to the contrary.


50 posted on 04/15/2009 1:58:06 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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