Taxes & Tyranny [Jonah Goldberg deconstructs the most frequent Leftist complaints about tea parties]

NRO ^ | April 17, 2009 | Jonah Goldberg

[Tolik]

Amidst all of the hooplah, I've heard a lot of complaints from liberals. Here are the most frequent complaints and my responses.

1. All of this tyranny talk is overheated and idiotic.

Well, some of it surely is. But look. According to that reason video I posted below, Americans work an average of 103 days a year just to pay their taxes. If you had to work 365 days a year to pay your taxes, that would be a kind of slavery or indentured servitude, because all of your productive labor would be going to the government. You would have no resources of your own to provide for the life you wanted. Instead the government would provide you not with what you want, but what the government decides you need.

That sounds like a kind of tyranny to me.

And, I think if we had to work 364 days a year it would still be a kind of serfdom (after all, serfs were allowed a little plot of their own). Ditto 363 days, 362 days, 361 days etc. Now, at some point the difference of degree becomes a difference in kind; working one day a year to pay for the government doesn't sound oppressive to me. But it seems to me that it's hardly absurd to think that 103 days a year is too much, or to believe that if that number goes even higher, we're losing something important.

I would also add that it's sort of crazy for liberals to equate government hand-outs (positive liberty, FDR's economic bill of rights and all that) with "freedom" but to equate the desire to keep more of the money you make yourself with greed and oppression of some kind. Money does make all sorts of liberties possible (you have to pay for your megaphone and all that). But government money only pays for the "liberties" the government thinks you should have, and therefore it can determine how you exercise them. That turns liberties into privileges dispensed at the whim of the state.

2. The original tea parties were about taxation without representation, today's spending is the result of Democrats winning elections, so it's taxation with representation.

There's some fairness to this objection. But one response would be that Democrats are tripling the debt, which means that generations of Americans not yet born will be taxed to pay for spending today. That is a kind of taxation without representation.

A second, more political than philosophical objection, would be that today's spending is being achieved under false pretenses. Obama says he's spending this money to fix a crisis, but much of his spending has nothing to do with the crisis but with shopworn liberal action items. However, since Obama campaigned on many of these items, I don't think it amounts to taxation without representation. But it does seem like the sort of duplicity worth a protest or two.

3. These protests are unpatriotic astroturfing by plutocrats.

So much for "dissent is the highest form of patriotism"!

I find it sort of amazing that when groups like ANSWER, a Mos Eisley cantina of America-hating nut cases, take to the streets it's a full-flowering of democracy in action. When ACORN pays their ragamuffins to protest, or when Rainbow/PUSH shakes down businesses through racial extortion, it's the sort of direct democratic action Thomas Paine dreamed of. And when labor unions pay people to protest, it's populist. But when a bunch of independent Americans, talk show hosts and email campaigners organize hundreds of protests around the country, it's astroturfing.

4. Republicans are hypocrites for suddenly caring about deficits.

Well, maybe. But then so are liberals for suddenly not caring about deficits. (That part always gets left out.)

Moreover, I don't get it. Republicans didn't care enough about the deficit when it went up a "little" under Bush (to pay for a war), therefore they can't complain when Obama sends it through the stratosphere (to pay for socialized medicine)? How does that work? If my wife spends too much on a shopping trip, does that mean she can't complain if I lose our house on a trip to Vegas?

5. The populist anger out there is the real face of America's homegrown fascism.

Sigh. While I think Rick Perry's secession talk is idiotic and unfortunate (even accounting for Texas' unique history), I am at a loss as to how any of this stuff smacks of fascism. Even Perry is talking in the context of the federal government doing too much, taking away too much liberty, getting too involved in local communities and interfering too much with the individual.

How do I say this so people will understand? Fascism isn't a libertarian doctrine! It just isn't, never will be and it can't be cast as one. Anarchism, secessionism, extreme localism or rampant individualism may be bad, evil, wrong, stupid, selfish and all sorts of other things (though not by my lights). But they have nothing to do with a totalitarian vision of the state where individuals and institutions alike must march in step and take orders from the government.

If you think shrinking government and getting it less involved in your life is a hallmark of tyranny it is only because you are either grotesquely ignorant or because you subscribe to a statist ideology that believes the expansion of the state is the expansion of liberty.

[Tolik]

Taxes & Tyranny Cont'd   [Jonah Goldberg]

From a reader:

Jonah:

This is about taxes as tyranny, and though I likely won't articulate this as well as I could, I think you'll get the point. When folks equate taxes with tyranny or stealing their productive labor or whatever, they seem to me to be missing a fairly important point; namely, what would be the value of their labor if there were no government or the government were not a democracy? You can argue about how much value having a democratic government adds to your labor, but I don't see how you can argue that the level of that value isn't very significant. For example, what do you suppose the difference in wages would be that you would have been paid or would be paid in a totalitarian government as opposed to the amount of wages that you earn right now? I would guess that the difference is pretty significant and that even if you have to pay 25% of your income for the benefit of the democratic government that we live in, it's well worth it.

Me: While I agree with the basic point, I think the reader steals a couple bases here.

Most libertarians — and all conservatives — aren't anarchists. They believe in some minimal form of government to ensure what the reader calls democratic government. I would have no problem whatsoever paying 25% of my income to ensure democratic government, if that is what it cost. The problem is that democratic government doesn't cost anywhere close to that. It is deeply misleading or dishonest for liberals to argue that we need high taxation to pay for the security of our democratic liberty while that taxation goes to paying for things that have nothing to do with those liberties and, in many cases, goes to pay for things that are inimical to liberty.

Taxes are a necessary evil, but they are an evil. Taxes are tyrannical simply because they are not voluntary. The state takes money from individuals whether they like it or not. (If you prefer, we can say that taxes restrict liberty.)

At the same time, poisons are alwas determined in the dosage. Censoring kiddie porn is a restriction of liberty, but it is a necessary one. Censoring political speech is a restriction of liberty and an unnecessary one. I see nothing wrong with making such distinctions.

Update: From a longtime liberal reader:

Government DOES cost "anywhere close to that"

To what part of the pie do you object? Are you really saying, "We should not have Medicare"? Are you saying, "We should not have Social Security"? Are you saying, "When people are laid off, they should not get unemployment benefits"?

Do you think that's what the pissed off teabaggers are saying? 

If so, please just go ahead and say it. Say that government costs way too much because we have Social Security and Medicare and unemployment benefits and we should get rid of those programs.

Me: Umm, no. When I hear the first reader saying that democratic government costs 25%, I hear him saying that a reliable system of democracy (constitutionalism etc) costs that much. It doesn't. Today's government costs that much (actually it costs far, far, far more, which is why we have such deficits) but generic liberty-protecting "democratic government" costs far, far, far less than what we pay for today.

A minarchist state isn't very expensive. A welfare state is.

Now if these two readers mean to say that "democratic governments" means whatever government program people vote for — or decline to vote to get rid of — that is a different argument and they should be more explicit in what they mean. Moreover, simply because people vote for something doesn't mean it isn't or can't be tyrannical. In a pure democracy, a majority could vote for me to be burned at the stake or to make a certain class of people slaves. It'd be democratic government, but I wouldn't want to pay for it — at any price.

04/17 11:37 AM

[Tolik]

Some resent posts on Tyranny:

Tyranny Grows When Majority Rules The Law
Walter E. Willliams

Got news for the Marxist media. It's not about the Tea, or the Tax. It's the Tyranny, stupid.
Jim Robinson

'Liberty and Tyranny' reviewed
Toney Blankely

"The Tyranny of the Majority" - from Alexis de Tocqueville's "Democracy in America"
Alexis de Tocqueville

Rush Limbaugh Interviews Mark Levin About His New Book "Liberty and Tyranny" - Video 3/25/09
 

Obama volunteers: "We're not looking for a fight. That will come later, when we have an army."

[Nonstatist]

Stop trying to make sense. Youre all a bunch of fascists , and whats more, you’re racist.

[Tolik]

Nailed It!

This ping list is not author-specific for articles I'd like to share. Some for the perfect moral clarity, some for provocative thoughts; or simply interesting articles I'd hate to miss myself. (I don't have to agree with the author all 100% to feel the need to share an article.)

I will try not to abuse the ping list and not to annoy you too much, but on some days there is more of the good stuff that is worthy of attention.

You are welcome to browse the list of truly exceptional articles I pinged to lately. Updated on April 1, 2009.  on  my page.
You are welcome in or out, just freepmail me (and note which PING list you are talking about).

Besides this one, I keep 2 separate PING lists for my favorite authors Victor Davis Hanson and Orson Scott Card.  

[reaganaut1]

I was disappointed with Goldberg’s reply regarding #2, “taxation with representation”. He should have mentioned that a very “progressive” income tax system where only a small fraction of taxpayers pay more than 50% of the taxes effectively becomes “taxation without represenation”.
There is a reason the Founding Fathers wrote a Constitution which did not permit an income tax (a constitutional amendment was needed to impose it).

[Hardastarboard]

Another really good article by Jonah Goldberg. Jonah - if you lurk here, good job. I read "Liberal Fascism", also a great read.

If I may be the critic here, sometimes Jonah pulled his punches a bit in "Liberal Fascism" when calling liberals out as being anti-freedom and ideologically related to Nazis, possibly because he's so used to being set upon by liberal hyenas that he feels compelled to land glancing blows.

The above critique may also just be my own expression of frustration that liberals have far more coming to them than they've gotten. They've certainly earned whatever ills befall them.

[EdReform]

Ping

[Tolik]

Did you read this excellent article by Dennis Prager?  Why Doesn't Communism Have As A Bad A Name As Nazism? (Its Leftist Apologia Stupid Alert), quote:

... 2. Communism is based on lovely sounding theories; Nazism is based on heinous sounding theories.

Intellectuals, among whom are the people who write history, are seduced by words -- so much so that deeds are deemed considerably less significant. Communism's words are far more intellectually and morally appealing than the moronic and vile racism of Nazism. The monstrous evils of Communists have not been focused on nearly as much as the monstrous deeds of the Nazis. The former have been regularly dismissed as perversions of a beautiful doctrine (though Christians who committed evil in the name of Christianity are never regarded by these same people as having perverted a beautiful doctrine), whereas Nazi atrocities have been perceived (correctly) as the logical and inevitable results of Nazi ideology.

This seduction by words while ignoring deeds has been a major factor in the ongoing appeal of the Left to intellectuals. How else explain the appeal of a Che Guevara or Fidel Castro to so many Left-wing intellectuals, other than that they care more about beautiful words than about vile deeds?

... 6. There is, simply put, widespread ignorance of Communist atrocities compared to those of the Nazis. Whereas, both Right and Left loathe Nazism and teach its evil history, the Left dominates the teaching profession, and therefore almost no one teaches Communist atrocities. As much as intellectuals on the Left may argue that they loathe Stalin or the North Korean regime, few on the Left loathe Communism. As the French put it, "pas d'enemis a la gauche," which in English means "no enemies on the Left." This is certainly true of Chinese, Vietnamese, and Cuban Communism. Check your local university's courses and see how many classes are given on Communist totalitarianism or mass murder compared to the number of classes about Nazism's immoral record.

... 2. Communism is based on lovely sounding theories; Nazism is based on heinous sounding theories.

Intellectuals, among whom are the people who write history, are seduced by words -- so much so that deeds are deemed considerably less significant. Communism's words are far more intellectually and morally appealing than the moronic and vile racism of Nazism. The monstrous evils of Communists have not been focused on nearly as much as the monstrous deeds of the Nazis. The former have been regularly dismissed as perversions of a beautiful doctrine (though Christians who committed evil in the name of Christianity are never regarded by these same people as having perverted a beautiful doctrine), whereas Nazi atrocities have been perceived (correctly) as the logical and inevitable results of Nazi ideology.

This seduction by words while ignoring deeds has been a major factor in the ongoing appeal of the Left to intellectuals. How else explain the appeal of a Che Guevara or Fidel Castro to so many Left-wing intellectuals, other than that they care more about beautiful words than about vile deeds?

... 6. There is, simply put, widespread ignorance of Communist atrocities compared to those of the Nazis. Whereas, both Right and Left loathe Nazism and teach its evil history, the Left dominates the teaching profession, and therefore almost no one teaches Communist atrocities. As much as intellectuals on the Left may argue that they loathe Stalin or the North Korean regime, few on the Left loathe Communism. As the French put it, "pas d'enemis a la gauche," which in English means "no enemies on the Left." This is certainly true of Chinese, Vietnamese, and Cuban Communism. Check your local university's courses and see how many classes are given on Communist totalitarianism or mass murder compared to the number of classes about Nazism's immoral record.

[Lorianne]

Great article. Thanks for posting!

[expatpat]

Americans work an average of 103 days a year just to pay their taxes. If you had to work 365 days a year to pay your taxes, that would be a kind of slavery or indentured servitude

We are serfs, not slaves.

[WOSG]

“1. All of this tyranny talk is overheated and idiotic.

Well, some of it surely is. But look. According to that reason video I posted below, Americans work an average of 103 days a year just to pay their taxes. If you had to work 365 days a year to pay your taxes, that would be a kind of slavery or indentured servitude, because all of your productive labor would be going to the government. You would have no resources of your own to provide for the life you wanted. Instead the government would provide you not with what you want, but what the government decides you need.”

Most serfs did NOT have to work 365 days for their Feudal Lords, nor did the lord’s own or get all of their production.

Likewise, sharecroppers got a portion and had a portion given to the landowner.

Of course, these are landowners, not Govt. What is Govt *providing* to make it worth it to stay?

[YankeeReb]

Whereas, both Right and Left loathe Nazism and teach its evil history, the Left dominates the teaching profession, and therefore almost no one teaches Communist atrocities.

Don't forget the left in this country was pretty much OK with Hitler during the days of the Hitler/Stalin pact dividing up Poland. The left became anti Nazi only after Hitler attacked Stalin.

[JENINMO]

I have always admired Jonah Goldberg, but I found his arguments lame and apologetic.

[Lucky Dog]

... very “progressive” income tax system where only a small fraction of taxpayers pay more than 50% of the taxes effectively becomes “taxation without represenation”.

You are correct, but should have added the word, proportional in front of "representation." At some point that proportion becomes effective, or de facto, "disenfranchisement." When that point is reached your statement stands as true without modification.

No one should be able to "buy" more votes that anyone else. However, no one should be forced to "pay" more for a vote than any one else, either.

[mjp]

"I've heard a lot of complaints from liberals".

Sorry liberal commies, but rationality and justice is earning what you get and keeping what you earn, and not being forced to give it away to parasites out pity, guilt, and so called "need".

[SunkenCiv]

NY Times Gives Tax Day Tea Parties the Kiss-off
Boycott The New York Times | April 17, 2009 | Don Feder
Posted on 04/17/2009 10:31:02 AM PDT by AIM Freeper
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2231605/posts

[Marmolade]

bfl

[Billthedrill]

Fascism isn't a libertarian doctrine!

Well, no, it isn't. Nor is it a conservative doctrine. Fascism is a progressive, utopian doctrine that is totalitarian in nature. These days it wears a Green face but it hasn't changed.

[WOSG]

While I think Rick Perry’s secession talk is idiotic and unfortunate (even accounting for Texas’ unique history), I am at a loss as to how any of this stuff smacks of fascism. Even Perry is talking in the context of the federal government doing too much, taking away too much liberty, getting too involved in local communities and interfering too much with the individual.”

Nothing Rick Perry said was wrong, idiotic or unfortunate. You give too much ground to
the hypeventilating Left in saying that. Perry has spoken properly of the need to let Texas run Texas.
He defends state sovereignty and is unafraid to mention the 10th Amendment. He never advocated secession.
When Perry says that Texas can handle Texas better than DC can handle Texas, he states a
simple principle of good Government: Government is best when it is closest to the people.
DC politicians should respect this concept or should be fired.

I was at the Austin, TX, rally where Gov Perry spoke. He contrasted Texas success with DCs bailouts.
He was preceded by 10 speakers with a common theme of “Don’t Mess with
Texas”, pointing out successful conservative Texas Governance compared with what is going on in Washington DC,
They explained why we dont need the path of spending money we dont have on programs we dont need to
help people and corporations who dont deserve it.

Yes, there was a guy in the crowd who shouted “Secede!” behind me a few times,
but this was a boisterous crowd with libertarians, activist conservatives, other groups,
non-political agitated taxpayers, etc. It can be taken about as seriously as the few folks in the same crowd
who want to abolish the Fed etc. (good spinkling of Campaign for Liberty / “Paulistinians” in the crowd).
You also had the “Dont Tread on Me” flag and the flag from Texas Revolution (”Come and Take It”).
I felt it appropriate to bring the Texas flag myself, and it fit right in to the rally’s theme.

There was and is no serious secession talk,
... imho, ‘secession’ is another liberal (MSNBC) baiting tactic, to marginalize via
guilt-by-association/isolation technique.

Rather the serious discussion is over how to assert Texas’ right to run our state
without Federal rules and strings attached to their ‘giveaways’, like they put into the stimulus.
We don’t want or need stimulus handout/bailout money.
In reality, Gov Perry has touted how Texas is a great place to work, and just wants to point out that
Texas can take care of Texas:
http://governor.state.tx.us/news/press-release/11797/

[WOSG]

“Fascism is a progressive, utopian doctrine that is totalitarian in nature. These days it wears a Green face but it hasn’t changed. “

Fascism was Benito Mussolini’s idea. He was originally a socialist, then added a Gramscian concept of culture... Italian and German Fascism became Socialism + Nationalism.

As you mention, you can create other variants such as a Green Fascism that combines Socialism + environmentalism.

[jimt]

...Americans work an average of 103 days a year just to pay their taxes.

And seeing as the average work year is 260 days, it means 39.6% of your labor is slavery. Let alone the fact that 50% of the people don't pay income taxes. They're going to vote for your 39.6% to increase so they can enjoy goobermint's largesse on your nickel.

[WOSG]

“Jonah pulled his punches a bit in “Liberal Fascism” when calling liberals out as being anti-freedom and ideologically related to Nazis, possibly because he’s so used to being set upon by liberal hyenas that he feels compelled to land glancing blows.”

Ah... but then it would read like Ann Coulter and people would get confused. :-)

[Hardastarboard]

Thanks, I actually have read that article. How about this thought? By some estimates, roughly 10 billion people have lived since the beginning of human existence, however you characterize that. Various socialist governments killed a documented 100 million people in the twentieth century. Donald J Rummel of the University of Hawaii in "Death by Government", documented that 300 million people have been murdered at the hands of governments throughout history. We're not talking about killed in wars, we're talking about MURDERED by governments.

The above means that socialist governments have killed one percent of every person who ever lived, and did it in the space of less than 100 years. All governments have killed three percent of everyone who ever lived over the course of 6,000 years of recorded history. Which means that while government is one of the most efficient means of murdering our fellowman, socialist governments are the most efficient means ever devised by man to murder each other. Who says government isn't capable of efficiency?

You may use any of the above information as you wish. I use it to justify buying guns and ammo.

[Kenton]

The MSM and the leftwingers in the administration seem to be wavering between the denial and anger stages here... they can't believe what they saw at the Tea Parties, and they're unable to do anything about it but pretend it was all a bad dream...

They really do underestimate us, and that's a good thing.

[muawiyah]

Let’s retake the government and then lay all the taxes on the Leftwingtards. Should be able to force them to work 363 days a year.

[Army Air Corps]

Bookmark

[Army Air Corps]

Bookmark

[Army Air Corps]

Sounds like we need a “Thank the Rich” campaign.

“If you are on welfare, thank a rich person”

“If you are on Medicaid, thank a rich person”

Etc, etc.

[Tolik]

He is Rudy, R.J. Rummel - a champion of Freedom - called himself Freedomist - unfortunately he stopped posting new stuff. But the old one is quite current.

http://democraticpeace.wordpress.com/about/

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/

To add to the numbers you provided, in his own words: “It is true that democratic freedom is an engine of national and individual wealth and prosperity. Hardly known, however, is that freedom also saves millions of lives from famine, disease, war, collective violence, and democide (genocide and mass murder). That is, the more freedom, the greater the human security and the less the violence. Conversely, the more power governments have, the more human insecurity and violence. In short: to our realization that power impoverishes we must also add that power kills. “

[zeugma]

Well said Jonah. To put his last point more briefly, democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what’s for lunch.

[Hardastarboard]

He is Rudy, R.J. Rummel

Thank you. I seem to get his name wrong every time, even though I tried to memorize it.

I always like the analysis I posted (I've done it before) because it provides irrefutable proof that socialism kills. Like liberals / socialists actually care.

[zeugma]

Sounds like we need a “Thank the Rich” campaign.

“If you are on welfare, thank a rich person”

“If you are on Medicaid, thank a rich person”

Etc, etc.

Not a bad idea at all. I was reading a few weeks ago that some 80% or other ghastly percentage of the taxes paid in new york city come from some 15k people, out of a population of millions, 15 thousand keep it all afloat.

[justiceseeker93]

Ping!!!

Important article by Jonah Goldberg!

[SuziQ]

Bump!

[justiceseeker93]

Most of us would think it’s frivolous, but a liberal complaint not mentioned by Jonah Goldberg would be that the Tea Parties were “racist” because the percentage of blacks and other “minorities” participating was too low.

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

generations of Americans not yet born will be taxed to pay for spending today. That is a kind of taxation without representation.

It certainly is. Excellent point.

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

generations of Americans not yet born will be taxed to pay for spending today. That is a kind of taxation without representation.

It certainly is. Excellent point.

We the people of the United States,

in order to . . . secure the blessings of liberty to . . . our posterity,

do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

"Well, some of it surely is. But look. According to that reason video I posted below, Americans work an average of 103 days a year just to pay their taxes. If you had to work 365 days a year to pay your taxes, that would be a kind of slavery or indentured servitude, because all of your productive labor would be going to the government.

Part of the problem is the doubling and tripling up. Federal income plus state, local, property, sales, etc. Then, of course, the absurd "death tax" when you die. No one should be paying more than 25% of what they have. It should only be 10%. The Feds, states,and counties could split it three ways, 3.33% each.

[4Liberty]

Good catch! Jonah’s awesome.

I’d correct (add to) point 2: There IS taxation without representation. Public labor unions are compulsory — and they collect dues which go to “political” activities. That money goes to the Dem Party.
If we had truly FREE labor markets, in which labor unions were entirely voluntary associations, the money could not be taken by force — and given to big dem campaigns, as a condition for employment.

The forced unions laws are slavery. We are forced to pay for a political position, and to finance political campaigns, which which we DISAGREE. That is slavery.

And the result, higher taxation (by dems) is NOT the result of free speech, and free, voluntary campaign contributions. We are forced to pay, to “lobby” to pay for our own tax increases!!!!

[smokingfrog]

When beneficiaries of government policy do not sufficiently overlap the payers of those benefits, we have a governing system of representation without taxation. This type of system is not sustainable long term, but history suggests it may persist for some time under the pretext of ‘economic justice' unless soundly rejected by the American people.

American Thinker: Representation Without Taxation

[Just A Nobody]

The left became anti Nazi only after Hitler attacked Stalin.

Why is it that so few seem to be aware of this little fact?

[sheik yerbouty]

Now you’ve ruined my day!...Bwaaahaaaaa!

[1035rep]

“Moreover, I don’t get it. Republicans didn’t care enough about the deficit when it went up a “little” under Bush (to pay for a war), therefore they can’t complain when Obama sends it through the stratosphere (to pay for socialized medicine)? How does that work? If my wife spends too much on a shopping trip, does that mean she can’t complain if I lose our house on a trip to Vegas?”

My point exactly!

Thanks for the ping justice!