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Vanity: KC gun show, request for help/info
Me | Today | Me

Posted on 04/25/2009 1:36:34 PM PDT by wafflehouse

Today and tomorrow, theres a pretty cool gun show going on here in Kansas City. I was thinking of buying an AR-15, but there are apparently a lot of options. What is the difference, CMMG, DPMS, Olympic, Bushmaster, Colt? Is there anything specific I should look for while comparing these? I was thinking of the .223 chambered variant because there is at least some of that ammo available here. CMMG, DPMS and Olympic are about the same, right at a grand.. Bushmaster is about 1200-1400 and Colt is just straight out of my price range, 1600-2000. Any helpful advice on how to pick the best weapon would be greatly appreciated. Are there magazine capacity restrictions or any legal issues I should be aware of? I dont know a lot about rifles. Im an army veteran though, so I have put quite a few rounds through an M-16. There is just no ammo available for handguns around here on a constant basis or I might get something in addition to the .380 Bersa I have now. There are some cheap shotguns but I have never shot one before, and dont know anything about them.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; US: Missouri; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: ar15; bang; banglist; gunshow
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1 posted on 04/25/2009 1:36:34 PM PDT by wafflehouse
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To: wafflehouse

Some are chambered for .223 and 5.56.. can you buy military 5.56 for these?


2 posted on 04/25/2009 1:38:56 PM PDT by wafflehouse (RE-ELECT NO ONE !)
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To: wafflehouse

Nothing like buying on the hype side, that way you get the best deal!!!!


3 posted on 04/25/2009 1:40:19 PM PDT by org.whodat (Auto unions bad: Machinists union good=Hypocrisy)
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To: wafflehouse

Probably go with Bushmaster.

Here is another nice choice in .308:
http://www.dsarms.com/STG58-Austrian-FAL/products/9/


4 posted on 04/25/2009 1:42:35 PM PDT by Frantzie (Bumper Sticker idea: "Remember when Bush was President & Americans had jobs?")
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To: wafflehouse

You better be first in line when the doors open; from what I’ve seen at a couple of shows the AR-15s are ALL gone within ten minutes.

Actually, based on the gun shows I’ve been to lately, you are better off buying from a local dealer or online.


5 posted on 04/25/2009 1:42:38 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wafflehouse

Boy are you gonna “PAY”


6 posted on 04/25/2009 1:42:56 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: wafflehouse
I've been going to gun shows for 20+ years.....with the hype and hysteria today, you'd be better off finding a good reputable gun store and watching prices over 2-3 months.

An example, I have a reissue of a Colt 1911 (earlier model) that I paid about $950 for. I've been thinking about another one and a store I've visited frequently had one for sale about $985 three years after I bought mine.

At the local gun show, I saw one for 'sale' at $1300. You tell me. These show hawkers are out to make a quick buck. And believe you me, the local population was out in sucker town that day (Sunday)....people buying up guns/ammo at outrageous prices.....

Bide your time, visit a few long term gun shops and think about what you buy.

7 posted on 04/25/2009 1:44:12 PM PDT by Gaffer
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To: Frantzie

I saw some DSA ARs a few months back in the $700 range


8 posted on 04/25/2009 1:44:16 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: mylife

Armalite makes IMHO the best ARs. However, you can get an AK for about half. Just doesn’t have the “sex appeal” of an AR. Getit in .223, easy to shoot.

Good luck and happy shopping.


9 posted on 04/25/2009 1:44:47 PM PDT by rstrahan
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To: wafflehouse

.223 cal. is US inches vs 5.56mm in Euro mm measurement.

Same thing.

Be sure to get 62 grain bullets if you have a 1:7 twist for the barrel

If you get an older “SP1” type Colt, you’ll need 55 grain bullets for the quicker 1:14 twist inside the barrel.


10 posted on 04/25/2009 1:45:08 PM PDT by DCBryan1 (Arm Pilots&Teachers. Build the Wall. Export Illegals. Profile Muslims. Execute child molesters RFN!)
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To: wafflehouse

They are all about double in price what they should be. They are built basically the same, some have tighter fits than others. It also might depend whether you want the basic model or a suped up job with all the bells and whistles. I have a GSE (Gunsmoke enterprise) which is well built and quite accurate. Ammo will be fun trying to get.


11 posted on 04/25/2009 1:45:58 PM PDT by JamesA (He who hesitates is lost.)
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To: Gaffer

Sound advice.


12 posted on 04/25/2009 1:46:04 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: Frantzie

DSA also makes their own AR line:

http://www.dsarms.com/DS-AR-Rifles/products/10/

Their FAL’s are nice but start at $1700. According to one FR person here - DSA sold out production for two years post 9/11 because spec ops guys were buying their FALs. I never verfied the story and have no idea if it is true. They seem to get good review. Their AR’s start at $1,050.


13 posted on 04/25/2009 1:46:14 PM PDT by Frantzie (Bumper Sticker idea: "Remember when Bush was President & Americans had jobs?")
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To: wafflehouse

It will cost you a buttload...but try to keep 5,000 rounds per battle rifle....and be sure to save every peice of brass you drop.


14 posted on 04/25/2009 1:47:09 PM PDT by DCBryan1 (Arm Pilots&Teachers. Build the Wall. Export Illegals. Profile Muslims. Execute child molesters RFN!)
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To: wafflehouse
Save your money and take yours are someone’s kid fishing.
15 posted on 04/25/2009 1:47:13 PM PDT by org.whodat (Auto unions bad: Machinists union good=Hypocrisy)
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To: rstrahan
I have one in .223 ☺ and an AR ☺
16 posted on 04/25/2009 1:47:18 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: wafflehouse
You can safely fire .223 ammo from a rifle chambered for 5.56 mm. The reverse is NOT true.

If you can make sure the one you purchase is chambered for 5.56mm NATO.

I checked out a lot of brands before I bought and I chose the Rock River Arms. Your mileage may vary.

L

17 posted on 04/25/2009 1:47:39 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: wafflehouse

There’s an explanation about .223 vs 5.56 on the web somewhere (I forget)....supposedly, the 5.56 chamber has a slightly longer ‘leade’, which is a lengthened chamber taper at the slug end of the chamber for ‘military’ rounds.....one can imaging if a military 5.56 cartridge is fired in a .223 chambered rifle that overpressure, etc. could occur...I’ve not seen this mentioned in any of the manufacturer’s manuals I have, however....


18 posted on 04/25/2009 1:48:43 PM PDT by Gaffer
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To: wafflehouse

I would get me a good shotgun, unless you are made out of money. The prices have gone through the roof locally.


19 posted on 04/25/2009 1:49:06 PM PDT by Tarpon (You abolish your responsibilities, your surrender your rights.)
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To: DCBryan1
Same thing.

They most assuredly are not.

This from Winchester.

L

20 posted on 04/25/2009 1:49:37 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: wagglebee

Good advice. Try to find a good local store known for good prices. Go there before any show. Another option is buying direct from the companies like DSA or Bushmaster just need a local tranfer person.

I remember during Clinton that gun shows were like semi-hysteria when Clinton butted heads with the NRA and lost big time. My guess is the hyseria now is probably 3x Clinton - for good reason.


21 posted on 04/25/2009 1:50:03 PM PDT by Frantzie (Bumper Sticker idea: "Remember when Bush was President & Americans had jobs?")
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To: mylife

Any idea what they are like? I had read that the DSA FAL’s are very good. I know Bushmaster’s stuff is good.


22 posted on 04/25/2009 1:51:50 PM PDT by Frantzie (Bumper Sticker idea: "Remember when Bush was President & Americans had jobs?")
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To: Frantzie

Its crazy. Some guys just bought like 15k of ammo the other week and headed to the Tulsa gunshow to jack up the prices.

My local dealer has taken to rationing some calibers to keep people from hoarding


23 posted on 04/25/2009 1:53:07 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: Frantzie

I dont know. Mine is a High Standard and I love it!


24 posted on 04/25/2009 1:54:07 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: DCBryan1
(SP1s are generally 1:12 and it's a slower twist than 1:7...)
25 posted on 04/25/2009 1:55:42 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: mylife

Yeah it is like a stock market bubble. Remember when Freon was being banned. Guys were buying it and filling warehouses with freon to store it.


26 posted on 04/25/2009 1:56:42 PM PDT by Frantzie (Bumper Sticker idea: "Remember when Bush was President & Americans had jobs?")
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To: wafflehouse

I would go for a Saiga .223 it is an AK47 reciever but instead of it being chambered for the 7.62 it is chambered for the .223 If yu are familiar with AKs you know they are a breeze to strip and clean and can be done with no hand tools.


27 posted on 04/25/2009 1:57:24 PM PDT by LukeL (Yasser Arafat: "I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize")
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To: DCBryan1

A 1 in 14 inch twist is slower than a 1 in 7 inch twist.

5.56 is not the same as .223. The specs for the 5.56 are military and the specs for .223 are SAAMI specs.
You can safely shoot .223 in a 5.56 chamber, but cannot safely shoot 5.56 safely in a .223 chamber.


28 posted on 04/25/2009 1:58:41 PM PDT by ExpatGator (Extending logic since 1961.)
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To: wafflehouse

Before prices went nuts ARs were like $750~$1200.

Most Manufactures make good AR’s (I dont know about Olympic)
STAG,High Standard;and DPMS all make fine AR’s


29 posted on 04/25/2009 2:00:16 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: wafflehouse
"... Some are chambered for .223 and 5.56.. can you buy military 5.56 for these?"

Yes, it's fine to shoot 5.56mm in an AR15 that's marked .223 Remington.

General rule of thumb is not to use military surplus 5.56mm in old bolt-action rifles marked '.223 Remington' that were manufactured long ago when the cartridge was relatively new for sporting use. Same thing goes for 7.62x51 NATO/.308 Winchester.

These would be bolt-action rifles from the 1950s-1960s I'm talking about here.

30 posted on 04/25/2009 2:00:39 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: Frantzie

My favorite local shop got caught up in the hysteria and I will never buy from them again. I was looking for an inexpensive 22 rifle for my nephew to shoot, the shop told me they had a few used Marlin 60s, I went up there and they were asking $200 each for them, I told them they were insane and picked a new one up at Walmart for $150.

If someone is looking for an AR-15 and wants it soon they are probably better off looking at GunsAmerica or Gunbroker. The local shops I’ve seen either don’t have any or they are selling them for $500 over list. I found a local FFL who will do transfers for $30 and that’s probably what I’ll do from now on. I’m mainly glad that I bought plenty of ammo last year.


31 posted on 04/25/2009 2:02:01 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wafflehouse
I've seen good prices and not-so-good prices at gun shows. Haven't been for over a decade, though.

If it's a big show, you'll probably have a good selection of dealers to choose from. If it's a small show, well then, maybe not so true (on price competitiveness)?

How big is the show?

32 posted on 04/25/2009 2:02:46 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, John 11:25, 14:6, 1 Tim 2:5, John 3:17-18, John 20:31, 1 John 5:13, John 6:69)
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To: Tarpon; wafflehouse

“I would get me a good shotgun”

I absolutely agree with Tarpon on this. Get yourself a good pump shotgun. An 870 seems to be a popular choice, although Mossberg seems to be a good choice too.

Buy a magazine extension for it so you can load it with 8 or more rounds. Ammo is still available for it.

If I could only have one gun, this would be it. You can hunt anything from squirrels to bears with it, and loaded with 00 Buck its a real man stopper. The only disadvantage is 35 yards is about its maximum range for self defense.

Buy one of these and you will still have money to eat with!


33 posted on 04/25/2009 2:03:51 PM PDT by EEDUDE
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To: ExpatGator

RE: twist: got it reversed...sorry....i do the same thing when i argue with my girlfriend whether black is the absence or the combination of colors.

Re: .223 vs 5.56. I have never EVER had, seen, or known of a FTE, FTF with any AR with either ammo on our range. The only time I have seen an FTF or FTE is when we screw on a suppressor to our full autos.


34 posted on 04/25/2009 2:04:12 PM PDT by DCBryan1 (Arm Pilots&Teachers. Build the Wall. Export Illegals. Profile Muslims. Execute child molesters RFN!)
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To: Gaffer

Just three days ago I picked up a Ruger p89 with four pre-ban mags for $250. I was looking for a pistol caliber carbine (there are zero availble around here) and bought this as a too-good-to-pass-up deal. Grabbed ten boxes of cartridges too. No ammo problem here (at least nines and 00 buckshot).


35 posted on 04/25/2009 2:04:48 PM PDT by wtc911 ("How you gonna get back down that hill?")
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To: wafflehouse
I need some help as well.

Need to know how many grains of powder to use to reload my .40 cal brass, using 180 grain bullets. I'm using Winchester 231 smokeless gunpowder.

36 posted on 04/25/2009 2:05:42 PM PDT by Jerrybob
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To: DCBryan1

How dare you get something wrong on the Internets.


37 posted on 04/25/2009 2:07:46 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: wafflehouse
Buy the DPMS with the 16” barrel(best compromise). Whatever you get though, make sure the receiver mounted hand-grip/site is removable and that these are mounted on a rail system. The rail system will give you the option to use a ton different optics.
FYI: .223 is the American description for the metric 5.56 NATO round.
38 posted on 04/25/2009 2:08:05 PM PDT by Reflex
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To: wtc911

First thing I’d wonder is if the magazine springs were ‘sprung’ Are the mags used?


39 posted on 04/25/2009 2:08:33 PM PDT by Gaffer
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To: Gaffer

That sounds like great advice.. i will look around for gun shops.


40 posted on 04/25/2009 2:09:01 PM PDT by wafflehouse (RE-ELECT NO ONE !)
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To: EEDUDE

Shotguns are one of the few things that haven’t gone crazy price wise, and they are very useful in a variety of scenarios.


41 posted on 04/25/2009 2:09:40 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: LukeL

ive never messed with an AK.. that was one of the main reasons for getting an AR is im familiar with the M-16.
Isnt one of the advantages of an AK using the bigger 7.62 round?


42 posted on 04/25/2009 2:10:38 PM PDT by wafflehouse (RE-ELECT NO ONE !)
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To: Lurker

thanks for the info and link on this


43 posted on 04/25/2009 2:11:06 PM PDT by wafflehouse (RE-ELECT NO ONE !)
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To: wafflehouse
Go over to AR15.com. They're the experts. Most of what I've seen over there is that all of the names you mention above are good brands. As far as .223 vs. 5.56, my man Lurker's post is correct - 5.56 is a hotter, milspec round. Take a look at the link he posted.

From the gun shows I've been to lately, you won't find any bargains there. My local gun shop has AR 15's for reasonable prices, at least given the current market. From the posts I saw on this thread, my experience is a bit unusual. One poster recommended Gunbroker.com or Gunsamerica.com. I don't find the Gunbroker.com prices to be very appealing, but again, I'm somewhat spoiled by the local gunshop, although I would point out that even their prices have gone up lately.

Good luck and good shopping.

44 posted on 04/25/2009 2:12:02 PM PDT by Hardastarboard (I long for the days when advertisers didn't constantly ask about the health of my genital organs.)
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To: wagglebee

Good post. yeah I mentioned people can go to DSA or Bushmaster direct and buy. Both companies have web sites and you can buy direct. I have not been to Bushie for a while but DSA is quoting their AR’s for $1050.

I really want one of their STG 58 Austrian FAL’s for $1100 as a back up to my Bushie. I love their FAL’s but they are $1700. I am not sure how good their AR’s are but the company supposedly has a pretty good reputation.

There are a LOT of companies making ARs now so people may be able to find web sites to buy direct then ship to your local FFL.

GunsAmerica and GunBroker are another option but some of the inventory listed is pricey due to the hysteria.


45 posted on 04/25/2009 2:12:11 PM PDT by Frantzie (Bumper Sticker idea: "Remember when Bush was President & Americans had jobs?")
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To: wafflehouse

Yes, and like I said they are easier to clean and maintain. Get a little dirt into an AR-15 and it might jam, pack an AK full of mud and it will still fire.


46 posted on 04/25/2009 2:12:16 PM PDT by LukeL (Yasser Arafat: "I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize")
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To: Frantzie

are FALs better than AKs? whats the difference?


47 posted on 04/25/2009 2:14:47 PM PDT by wafflehouse (RE-ELECT NO ONE !)
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To: Frantzie

Brownell’s has an “AR15 Builder” on their website now where you can pretty much design your own from scratch. I played around with it a while back, you should check it out.


48 posted on 04/25/2009 2:15:43 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wafflehouse
Happy to be of service. The .223 vs 5.56 is one of those "FAQ's". I figured I'd give you a link to the ammo manufacturers webpage so you could get your information direct from the people who manufacture both.

When I bought my AR pattern rifle I specified the 5.56mm chamber for just that reason.

I've had excellent luck with my Rock River. It comes standard from the factory with a 2 stage 'match' type trigger. That's usually an option that costs a hundred bucks or so from other manufacturers.

As far as which one's 'best', well that's an argument for a months worth of Sundays. Find one you like that's within your budget. You'll be well served IMO with any of the major makers.

Bushmaster, Colt, Rock River, DPMS, etc. Any should function properly provided you take care of it and fire the proper ammo.

Best of luck to you.

L

49 posted on 04/25/2009 2:18:21 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: F15Eagle
the webpage says 400 tables. its pretty well shoulder to shoulder in there too
50 posted on 04/25/2009 2:18:24 PM PDT by wafflehouse (RE-ELECT NO ONE !)
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