Posted on 05/02/2009 12:54:59 PM PDT by ReformationFan
The Georgia Dome, home of the Atlanta Falcons football team, was recently crowded with cheering fans and adrenaline-filled competitors. A thrilling competition crowned new champions. But this was not a football game. It was a robotics competition for high school students interested in engineering, a program that now attracts about 200,000 student-competitors and nearly 100,000 volunteers.
Known as FIRST (For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology), this program demonstrates that there is no shortage of American engineering minds. Started nearly 20 years ago by Dean Kamen, the inventor of the clever Segway that officials scoot around on, this competition develops future American engineers.
The students are extraordinarily diverse, coming from public and private schools and homeschools, rich and poor, urban and rural, athletic and disabled. Colleges provide up to $10 million in scholarships.
Obviously, there is no shortage of teenage interest and aptitude in engineering. But their prospects for good American jobs are very limited.
(Excerpt) Read more at worldviewtimes.com ...
Agreed.
“An astounding 60 percent of the top science students in the United States and 65 percent of the top math students are the children of immigrants. In addition, foreign-born high school students make up 50 percent of the 2004 U.S.Math Olympiad’s top scorers, 38 percent of the U.S. Physics Team, and 25 percent of the Intel Science Talent Search finalists—the United States’ most prestigious awards for young scientists and mathematicians.”
^ a b Anderson, ‘The Multiplier Effect’, International Educator. 2004.
33% of science and engineering PhD candidates are foreign born. We are not educating and graduating enough American born science and engineering students at the Masters and PhD level. Just drop by a college of engineering and see how many students are born in the USA.
Maybe the H1-B visas are part of the problem, but it isn’t the entire problem. I know too many people who are frustrated by the lack of qualified American candidates for technical jobs. My neighbor works for a geotechnical company and was looking for a geotechnical/groundwater modeling engineer. He showed me the stack of resumes he received. There were only 2 which were American, the other 95 were foreign born.
Could this be part of the reason?
To make matters worse, 2/3’s of all the engineers and scientists in the US are within 5 years of retirement.
Raise wages and you will attract more people into the profession over time. That is the American capitalist way. Further, you have to educate young people to get them into the pipeline for math and science related careers. My kids have had some very fine math and science teachers in their public schools. That isn’t always the case, and my wife and I moved to where we live to get into a good school district. Others who are not so fortunate are going to have to work harder on their own. Cutting the rewards for their efforts won’t encourage them (i.e. higher taxes and or a change in policy that allows for more foreign competition into the country).
Reference, please? I'm not doubting you but I'd like to see it for myself.
In her article, she talks about wages being depressed by 7% compared. Given that the median national salary for an engineering major is $113,000 which is more than three times as high as the median salary in the US, it's hard to argue about salary depression.
|
|
|
|
|
| $98,620 | $113,106 | $129,071 |
The median expected salary for a typical Engineering Manager in the United States is $113,106. This basic market pricing report was prepared using Salary.com's Certified Compensation Professionals' analysis of survey data collected from thousands of HR departments at employers of all sizes, industries and geographies.
Source: http://www.elearners.com/guide-to-online-education/average-salary-for-engineering-degree-holders.asp
Looking at the salaries of recent engineering graduates, they are more than $10,000 over the average for other college majors. So there's obviously some incentive:
| Curriculum | Average Salary Offer |
|---|---|
| Chemical Engineering | $63,616 |
| Computer Engineering | $59,962 |
| Computer Science | $59,873 |
| Industrial/Manufacturing Engineering | $58,252 |
| Aerospace/Aeronautical/Astronautical Engineering | $57,999 |
Source: http://www.naceweb.org/press/display.asp?year=2008&prid=283
And as "ga medic" stated, many of the current engineering graduates are the children of foreigners. Somehow all those Asians dropping their children off at the Kumon Centers are not too worried about outsourcings impact on their children's careers.
Nope. It takes discipline to become an engineer. It's nice to compete in the robotics competition but it takes 4 long years in the science library to actually get the degree.
I R N ENGINEER.
So he has two applicants, he only needed one. Tell him to make his choice.
One can make just as much as a Registered Nurse with far more job security without nearly as demanding an education.
If the foreign born ones are legal immigrants or naturalized Americans, who cares. Nothing wrong importing legal, high skilled or wealthy immigrants into the US who will immediately become producers and taxpayers. Where our immigration policies go wrong is importing poverty and importing people who will can go nuts if someone drew a cartoon of their God. Never import poverty, never import crime, never import terrorism, never import cultural seperatists. If a nation does that, they have no one to blame but themselves or their government they elect.
And the h1b visa thing is a scum sucking joke, to tramp down the wages of American workers. You only need to watch the attorney giving the show on how to screw the program to under stand that.
AS I said the man has two applicants are he is Un-American as they come.
There are places that are ok, but engineering as whole is a shaky field to be in. Most HR managers would rather pay peanuts to five engineers in India than pay for one American.
Afraid I have to agree with you - engineering is not a respected profession in the US. It is a tough grind all the way through to earn a Bachelor’s. What’s taught doesn’t prepare you for the ‘real world’ - if you don’t keep renewing your knowledge base - after 4-5 years - you get dumped for a cheaper graduate just entering the work force. If you want to stay employed, you need to position yourself so you are a direct influence on the company revenue stream. Anyplace else, and you’re overhead and a target when someone cheaper comes along. And, being in IT isn’t going to save anyone - why do you think every vendor is concentrating on ‘process automation’? No one’s sales or marketing literature will say so - but the idea is to get rid of as much dependency on ‘talent’ as possible. Not all of the jobs are going away, but there are far more lucrative and secure professions.
Sure, all of us have to renew our knowledge base, all the time, but it is better to start with a degree in Engineering than social science.
Bernie Sanders of all people has a good idea— auction H1-Bs to the highest bidders to raise money for scholarships to help train Americans in science and math so that H1-Bs aren’t needed as much. We should be transitioning away from them and this is a way to do that and it doesn’t include deficit government spending.
That is what GE is pushing.
I got the 2/3’s figure from the headhunting agency that I use to get me resumes for prospective employees. The past few years have been dreadful for attracting people. Our last opening took almost a year to fill. Because of our contracts with the federal goverment, we can only employ US citizens.
The Navy is desperate for US citizen engineers, and the current ones all seem about 60.
You posted a chart for engineering manager, not major.
Per the same web site, “The median expected salary for a typical Electrical Engineer I in the United States is $58,238. This basic market pricing report was prepared using our Certified Compensation Professionals’ analysis of survey data collected from thousands of HR departments at employers of all sizes, industries and geographies. “
Per the BLS, in 2007, the latest tables I could readily find, the mean annual salary was $ 83,090.
http://www.bls.gov/oes/2007/may/oes_nat.htm#b15-0000
Something doesn’t add up here.
Bernie Sanders is assuming that companies want to hire Americans.
Many companies, as mentioned here would rather hire 5 cheap H-1B engineers who are virtually indentured to them.
This phenomenon is also very common in IT.
The premise of the article is that US born Engineering Majors are somehow being betrayed.
Not one supporting fact.
An example of a fact would be that US born Engineering graduates can't get jobs. Where is that statistic?
The reason so few Americans pursue an Engineering degree is that it is too difficult. Foreign students are willing to put in the effort that is required to get the degree.
Electrical Engineer I in the United States is $58,238 - Starting pay.
Mean annual salary was $ 83,090. - Average pay (say 10 years experience).
Expect $100K to $125K for 20+ years.
Probably Reason #1, imho. From my own personal experience, even a two-year general engineering degree will go a long way in the real world, but even an associate's degree in engineering is a lot of work.
The 2 big rewards are: 1) the opportunity for a job that is generally interesting, well-paying, and has an impact bigger than yourself in some way; 2) the knowledge that the skills learned in obtaining the engineering degree are readily transferrable to almost any job or position. And what I mean by #2 are the problem solving skills that a person obtains, such as learning how to analyze a problem, come up with a solution (or more likely several solutions), and then deciding which solution is the best one for the given situation.
The FIRST Robotics competition is a lot of fun. Also a lot of work. Anyone on FR ever attended one?
I agree. I am a licensed Civil Engineer. After 38 years in the consulting business I will retire next year.
I give my plumber more respect then the government OR private sector gives a Professional Civil Engineer. Folks want public infrastructure for “free”. Since they can’t, they prefer to buy other “products” with their tax dollars like welfare and day care provided by the public school [child care] system. Politicians don’t care much for infrastructure. After all bridges don’t vote, welfare recipients do!
Education of engineers parallels that of the rest of academia —pretty pathetic. Case in point -— the so called global warming scam would be laughed out of the Public Square if a plurality of the electorate had at least a real high school education.
The H1B Visa conduit is about to die from its own dead weight. The Obama depression is killing engineering jobs and the uneducated products of H1B diploma mills in the US are short circuiting the process.
Actually the H1B visa deal is an immigration pipeline. If you are a South Asian. you get your local BS degree, then enroll in a Masters program in a US diploma mill, get a job for low wages here, apply for a visa, get it and then boom you are on your way to a Green Card/citizenship.
I hired two HiB guys last fall. They were incompetent plus the work in the Obama Depression is withering away so I had to let them go. They may now have to go back home to India
I agree with Ms. Schlaffley that FIRST is generally a great activity.
The H1-B Visa situation is complicated - it’s both a cause and a symptom.
My view as an engineering professor as to why not enough students are attracted to science & engineering as a profession: For a generation or more, we have systematically rewarded professions who administer and redistribute wealth over professions who create new wealth. Finance/investement majors generally have lower entracnce requirements, have to study much less hard than engineering students, and receive similar starting salaries upon graduation. The disparity with lawyers is even greater. Both enjoy higher social status.
While we need good honest lawyer, and financial analysts, both of these professions deal fundamentally with redistribute existing wealth in more ‘just’ or ‘efficient’ ways. Students see that people who’ve chosen professions that actually build things end up working harder for less pay, and are often regarded as ‘boring’ or ‘geeky’ for their efforts.
A society that chooses to reward its “community organizers” doesn’t produce as many scientists and engineers as societies that are interested in producing wealth.
(And lest I sound bitter, I am very glad I went into my profession. I could have made more money elsewhere, but I make enough, get to work with intellectually stimulating ideas, and get to interact with smart young minds every day.)
Don't worry...President Obama is helping to extend that.
Hmmmmmm......
I don't know how you figure that the American people are footing that bill, but that's a small point. You can figure that anyone coming here on a student visa is expected to go home (if he's not learning to fly, but not land, jetliners), but H-1B's generally become U.S. citizens.
Phyllis Schlafly is exactly right. We are creating strong incentives for Americans with the aptitude to become engineers to become something else instead, both through H1B visas and through our refusal to protect domestic manufacturing from foreign competition. (That, incidentally, was another reason to provide loans to GM and Chrysler: the American car companies do most of their engineering and research and development here; the Japanese do most of that work in Japan).
“Science and technology is fun, but it is harder than being a DJ or a talk show presenter.”
If it just paid like a talk show host gig...they would be asking for more visa’s to prevent having to pay the wages.
“We are creating strong incentives for Americans with the aptitude to become engineers to become something else instead,”
Law School application’s are on the rise again. This is just what we need...the usual American solution, the non-productive live off of the productive. I’ve never seen a lawyer invent anything but trouble.
“This phenomenon is also very common in IT.”
H1Bs are replete in corporate IT. House them 3 at a time in tiny apartments or homes owned by the corp. Work them to death. Pay them high for a while. Ramp down the project. They’re toast.
I heard tell of an H1B who, on a Sunday night just prior to starting a gig, after having flown in from India, was told not to show as the project was nixed. The guy couldn’t drive. That would’ve been a b)&*$.
That being said, how many people have been told to train their H1B replacements? Hmmmm. Or, had to rewrite code from jump because what was transmitted to the States was crap? Uh huh. Then, there are those US employees encouraged to take 6 month trips to S Asia or parts elsewhere to ‘help.’ Riiighht.
What is it? 6x salary here in the US for someone in a S Asia shop? Makes you all warm and fuzzy.
I used to do talks at local schools for Engineers’ Week. I would always ask the classes (8th graqders) how many were interested in being engineers - got very few hands. They were always scared of the math. The public schools in my area are very poor in math and science - the dozen or so football coaches all seem to end up teaching them, and they suck the life out of them. They teach rote manipulation in math instead of teaching the theories and what the stuff is good for, and they stick to fact memorization in science. Who wants to listen to that?
I wish I'd saved an article from Forbes I found back in '04 or '05. They surveyed the CEO's of the Fortune 1000 to find out what the most common traits were among these captains of industry. One stat clearly stood out from the others. By a large percentage, more CEO's had been educated as engineers than any other field.
In an economy dominated by technology, it shouldn't surprise anyone that this was the case but it surprised me. It makes sense though. People educated in engineering that have a strong business acumen and exceptional leadership skills will make excellent candidates to run industry.
I wouldn't discourage anyone from becoming an engineer. I would also encourage them to gain an MBA to ensure they advance their careers.
It is indeed a wonderful education, but a very high fraction of engineering graduates leave the profession fairly rapidly compared to other careers.
Who in their right mind would ever become an engineer when they can become the engineer’s manager by getting a 6 week certificate such as a PMP???
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
