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The Founders on Homosexuality
Apologetics Press ^ | Dave Miller, Ph.D.

Posted on 05/02/2009 3:35:50 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan

Of those living today in America who were alive 50 years ago, few could have imagined, let alone predicted, that homosexuality would encroach on our culture as it has. In fact, it would have been unthinkable. The rapidity with which homosexual activists continue successfully to bully the nation to normalize what once was universally considered abnormal is astonishing. And toleration has not satisfied them. Allowing their views to be taught in public schools has not appeased them. No, they insist that societal endorsement extend to redefining marriage to include same-sex couples.

A pernicious plague of sexual insanity is creeping insidiously through American civilization. Far more deadly than the external threat of terrorism, or even the inevitable dilution of traditional American values caused by the infiltration of illegal immigrants and the influx of those who do not share the Christian worldview, this domino effect will ultimately end in the moral implosion of America. Indeed, America is being held captive by moral terrorists. The social engineers of “political correctness” have been working overtime for decades to restructure public morality.

The Founding Fathers of these United States would be incredulous, incensed, and outraged. They understood that acceptance of homosexuality would undermine and erode the moral foundations of civilization. Sodomy, the longtime historical term for same-sex relations, was a capital crime under British common law. Sir William Blackstone, British attorney, jurist, law professor, and political philosopher, authored his monumental Commentaries on the Laws of England from 1765-1769. These commentaries became the premiere legal source admired and used by America’s Founding Fathers. In Book the Fourth, Chapter the Fifteenth, “Of Offences Against the Persons of Individuals,” Blackstone stated:

IV. WHAT has been here observed..., which ought to be the more clear in proportion as the crime is the more detestable, may be applied to another offence, of a still deeper malignity; the infamous crime against nature, committed either with man or beast.... But it is an offence of so dark a nature...that the accusation should be clearly made out....

I WILL not act so disagreeable part, to my readers as well as myself, as to dwell any longer upon a subject, the very mention of which is a disgrace to human nature. It will be more eligible to imitate in this respect the delicacy of our English law, which treats it, in it’s very indictments, as a crime not fit to be named; peccatum illud horribile, inter chriftianos non nominandum [“that horrible sin not to be named among Christians”—DM]. A taciturnity observed likewise by the edict of Constantius and Constans: ubi fcelus eft id, quod non proficit fcire, jubemus infurgere leges, armari jura gladio ultore, ut exquifitis poenis fubdantur infames, qui funt, vel qui futuri funt, rei [“When that crime is found, which is not profitable to know, we order the law to bring forth, to provide justice by force of arms with an avenging sword, that the infamous men be subjected to the due punishment, those who are found, or those who future will be found, in the deed”—DM]. Which leads me to add a work concerning its punishment.

THIS the voice of nature and of reason, and the express law of God, determine to be capital. Of which we have a signal instance, long before the Jewish dispensation, by the destruction of two cities by fire from heaven: so that this is an universal, not merely a provincial, precept. And our ancient law in some degree imitated this punishment, by commanding such miscreants to be burnt to death; though Fleta says they should be buried alive: either of which punishments was indifferently used for this crime among the ancient Goths. But now the general punishment of all felonies is the fame, namely, by hanging: and this offence (being in the times of popery only subject to ecclesiastical censures) was made single felony by the statute 25 Hen. VIII. c. 6. and felony without benefit of clergy by statute 5 Eliz. c. 17. And the rule of law herein is, that, if both are arrived at years of discretion, agentes et confentientes pari poena plectantur [“advocates and conspirators should be punished with like punishment”—DM] (1769, 4.15.215-216, emp. added).

Sir William Blackstone

Here was the law of England—common law—under which Americans lived prior to achieving independence. That law did not change after gaining independence. To say the least, such thinking is hardly “politically correct” by today’s standards.

How many Americans realize that while serving as the Commander-in-Chief of the Continental Army during the Revolutionary War, the Father of our country was apprised of a homosexual in the army. The response of General Washington was immediate and decisive. He issued “General Orders” from Army Headquarters at Valley Forge on Saturday, March 14, 1778:

At a General Court Martial whereof Colo. Tupper was President (10th March 1778) Lieutt. Enslin of Colo. Malcom’s Regiment tried for attempting to commit sodomy, with John Monhort a soldier; Secondly, For Perjury in swearing to false Accounts, found guilty of the charges exhibited against him, being breaches of 5th Article 18th Section of the Articles of War and do sentence him to be dismiss’d the service with Infamy. His Excellency the Commander in Chief approves the sentence and with Abhorrence and Detestation of such Infamous Crimes orders Lieutt. Enslin to be drummed out of Camp tomorrow morning by all the Drummers and Fifers in the Army never to return; The Drummers and Fifers to attend on the Grand Parade at Guard mounting for that Purpose (“George...,” underline in orig., emp. added).

Images courtesy of Library of Congress, Manuscript Division

Observe that the Father of our country viewed “sodomy” (the 18th-century word for homosexual relations) “with Abhorrence and Detestation.”

Homosexuality was treated as a criminal offense in all of the original thirteen colonies, and eventually every one of the fifty states (see Robinson, 2003; “Sodomy Laws...,” 2003). Severe penalties were invoked for those who engaged in homosexuality. In fact, few Americans know that the penalty for homosexuality in several states was death—including New York, Vermont, Connecticut, and South Carolina (Barton, 2000, pp. 306,482). Most people nowadays would be shocked to learn that Thomas Jefferson advocated “dismemberment” as the penalty for homosexuality in his home state of Virginia, and even authored a bill to that effect (1781, Query 14; cf. 1903, 1:226-227).

Image courtesy of Library of Congress, General Collections

Where did the Founding Fathers and early American citizenry derive their views on homosexuality? The historically unequivocal answer is—the Bible. “Traditional” (i.e., biblical) marriage in this country has always been between a man and a woman. In the words of Jesus: “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?” (Matthew 19:4-5, emp. added). He was merely quoting the statement made by God regarding His creation of the first man and woman (Genesis 1:27; 2:24). God created Adam and Eve—not Adam and Steve, or Eve and Ellen. And throughout the rest of biblical history, God’s attitude toward same-sex relations remained the same (Miller, et al., 2003).

In the greater scheme of human history, as civilizations have proceeded down the usual pathway of moral deterioration and eventual demise, the acceptance of same-sex relations has typically triggered the final stages of impending social implosion. America is being brought to the very brink of moral destruction. The warning issued by God to the Israelites regarding their own ability to sustain their national existence in the Promised Land is equally apropos for America:

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.... Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants. You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations...lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that were before you (Leviticus 18:22-28, emp. added).

Mark it down: THE GOD OF THE BIBLE WILL NOT ALLOW THE ABOMINATION OF HOMOSEXUALITY TO GO UNCHALLENGED AND UNPUNISHED. Unless something is done to stop the moral degeneration, America would do well to prepare for the inevitable, divine expulsion.

REFERENCES

Barton, David (2002), Original Intent (Aledo, TX: Wallbuilders), 3rd edition.

Blackstone, William (1769), Commentaries on the Laws of England, [On-line], URL: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/blackstone/bk4ch15.htm.

“George Washington, March 14, 1778, General Orders” (1778), The George Washington Papers at the Library of Congress, 1741-1799, from ed. John C. Fitzpatrick, The Writings of George Washington from the Original Manuscript Sources, 1745-1799, [On-line], URL: http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/mgw:@field(DOCID+@lit (gw110081)).

Jefferson, Thomas (1781), Notes on the State of Virginia, The Avalon Project at Yale Law School, [On-line], URL: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/jevifram.htm.

Miller, Dave, et al.(2003), “An Investigation of the Biblical Evidence Against Homosexuality,” Reason & Revelation, 24[9]:81, December, [On-line], URL: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2577.

Robinson, B.A. (2003), “Criminalizing Same-Sex Behavior,” [On-line], URL: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_laws1.htm.

“Sodomy Laws in the United States” (2003), [On-line], URL: http://www.sodomylaws.org/usa/usa.htm.



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TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: corruption; culturaldegeneracy; foundingfathers; homonaziagenda; homosexualagenda; moralabsolutes; sodomy
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"This crime, tho repugnant to every sentiment of decency and delicacy, is very prevalent in corrupt and debauched countries where the low pleasures of sensuality and luxury have depraved the mind and degraded the appetite below the brutal creation. Our modest ancestors, it seems by the diction of the law, had no idea that a man would commit this crime [anal intercourse with either sex]. . . . [H]ere, by force of common law, [it is] punished with death. . . . [because of] the disgust and horror with which we treat of this abominable crime."--Zephaniah Swift

Has Homosexuality Always Been Incompatible With Military Service?

1 posted on 05/02/2009 3:35:50 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Ping!


2 posted on 05/02/2009 3:38:18 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
Also fifty years ago, no one really appreciated the substantial role homosexuality played within the fledgling German national socialist labor movement.
3 posted on 05/02/2009 3:39:42 PM PDT by SpaceBar
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

The next domino has fallen. The first several fell when, from 1971 to 2001, over half of the fifty states eliminated their sodomy laws. The next fell on June 26, 2003, when the U.S. Supreme Court struck down all state sodomy laws in their infamous Lawrence v. Texas ruling. Cascading after that, the Supreme Court of Massachusetts declared the issuance of marriage licenses for same-sex couples to be constitutional. The first marriage licenses were issued to same-sex couples on May 17, 2004. Now, less than a year later, the state of New York is following suit. State court judge Doris Ling-Cohan has ruled that the New York City clerk may not deny marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Her rationale? “Under both the federal and New York State constitutions, it is beyond question that ‘the right to liberty’ extends to protect marriage” (“Judge Nixes...,” 2005, emp. added). She further insisted: “Similar to opposite-sex couples, same-sex couples are entitled to the same fundamental right to follow their hearts and publicly commit to a lifetime partnership with the person of their choosing” (as quoted in Kearney, 2005, emp. added). Any dominoes that remain will inevitably fall in March 2005, when a new video will be distributed to 61,000 schools across the nation—a video in which homosexual activists are using popular children’s television characters to urge tolerance and acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle. The inevitable moral implosion of America is happening right before our very eyes.

A pernicious plague of moral insanity is creeping insidiously through American civilization. Far more deadly than the external threat of terrorism, this domino effect will ultimately end in the moral implosion of America. Indeed, America is being held captive by moral and judicial terrorism. Those at the forefront of the attempt to coerce the country into altering its long-standing code of moral values are activist judges. Their tortured “interpretation” of constitutional law demonstrates that they have no respect for existing laws. Instead, they apparently see themselves as the appropriate architects of social change by usurping their constitutional role and legislating from the bench. They have placed themselves at odds with the history of Western civilization. With no regard for American legal history and the body of constitutional law that has remained largely intact from the beginning of the nation until the 1950s and 1960s, they essentially have swept away over 150 years of American judicial precedent with a flippant wave of the hand. They are literally restructuring the American moral landscape with an unflinching vengeance that is unmoved by the widespread national outrage to the contrary.America’s Inevitable Moral Implosion

4 posted on 05/02/2009 3:40:04 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Of course this is true but the fact is that slavery used to be legal and this is often one of the levers used to say that the old laws against homosexuality were just as egregiously wrong. I’m just sayin’ since that’s one of the big arguments you know.


5 posted on 05/02/2009 3:41:20 PM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

It is interesting that the Torys, who sanctioned homosexuality, today align themselves with “Patriotic Liberals”. These liberals of today would have been the Torys of 1776. Those who would have been British Loyalists.


6 posted on 05/02/2009 3:45:49 PM PDT by realcleanguy
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To: SpaceBar
The Pink Swastika: Homosexuality in the Nazi Party
7 posted on 05/02/2009 3:46:52 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Homosexuality in our culture really took off when the DNC first saw them as a voting block.


8 posted on 05/02/2009 3:47:57 PM PDT by umgud (I'm really happy I wasn't aborted)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

bookmark


9 posted on 05/02/2009 3:48:00 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

10 posted on 05/02/2009 3:49:49 PM PDT by Snurple (VEGETARIAN, OLD INDIAN WORD FOR BAD HUNTER.)
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To: Paved Paradise

There is a fundamental difference between the practice of involuntary servitude or treating people as mere property as opposed to people who define their entire lives around their sordid sexual perversions. Granted, people will invoke it, but it is a frivolous comparison.


11 posted on 05/02/2009 3:50:01 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Leviticus 20:13

If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

2 Chronicles 7:14

If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

12 posted on 05/02/2009 3:50:59 PM PDT by Evil Slayer (Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war)
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To: umgud

Indeed. My late Baptist, FDR/Truman/JFK/LBJ supportin’ grandparents would be shocked to see what the Democratic Party they once loved and voted for turned into.


13 posted on 05/02/2009 3:56:06 PM PDT by ReformationFan
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Fantastic post... and more fuel for the fire of the America-haters that now number the ranks of the current administration.

The simple fact is we will eventually be persecuted for our faith and condemned all the more for what we believe. We have to continue, however not only to claim the faith that owns us, but to proclaim it, remembering that God is God...

and God will not be mocked.

Thank you for posting this.


14 posted on 05/02/2009 3:56:55 PM PDT by Gordon Greene (www.fracturedrepublic.com - Jesus said, "I am THE way, THE truth and THE life." Any questions?)
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To: Paved Paradise

One isn’t born gay, one can be born black (which was the basis of slavery in the US, and denial of equal protection under the US laws).


15 posted on 05/02/2009 4:04:05 PM PDT by JSDude1 (DHS, FBI, FEMA, etc have been bad little boys. They need to be spanked and sent to timeout!)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
Interesting, I hadn't really considered Blackstone as a Founding Father before. It would be also interesting to compare the Founders' sayings on letting women and nonwhite people have full political rights as well.

I revere the Founding Fathers as much as anyone here, but they were men of their times, even though they were considerably ahead of their times in the matter of working and fighting for self-government. Thomas Jefferson's words notwithstanding, I'm not going to advocate dismembering homosexuals.

It's not like the Bible, folks, it's not "all right" or "all wrong".

16 posted on 05/02/2009 4:04:28 PM PDT by hunter112 (SHRUG - Stop Hussein's Radical Utopian Gameplan!)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

bookmark for later.


17 posted on 05/02/2009 4:10:01 PM PDT by IrishCatholic (No local Communist or Socialist Party Chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing!)
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To: hunter112

“It’s not like the Bible, folks, it’s not “all right” or “all wrong”.”

Ummmmmmmm, yes it is.


18 posted on 05/02/2009 4:14:25 PM PDT by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
America is being held captive by moral terrorists.
19 posted on 05/02/2009 4:19:25 PM PDT by AKA Elena (Mary, Help of Christians, Pray for us.)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Anyone having had friends, relatives or work mates that are homosexual is painfully aware that it is no more normal than drug addiction, alcoholism or any other self destructive lifestyle.
I believe they have a right as free individuals to ruin their own lives. Their lifestyle should not be used against them unless they engage in illegal behavior. Then they should be treated as anyone else.

I believe parents have a right and a responsibility to inform their children that this isn’t a normal lifestyle and no matter what their school tries to tell them it will bring them only heartache, disease, drug addiction and a life span of up to 25 years less than the average person.

What makes them different is sexual tastes, sexual conduct and sexual partners. Children should not be exposed to indoctrination by homosexual activists any more than drug dealers should be allowed to come to the school and tell children that it’s normal to take drugs.

Someday a whole generation of liberally raised children are going to rise up against their parents and teachers and know them for what they are liars who put their children’s lives in danger by convincing them that they would rather their children were homosexuals than Christians. There will be a day of reckoning for liberals.


20 posted on 05/02/2009 4:20:43 PM PDT by ODDITHER (HAT)
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To: swmobuffalo

My point is, do not apply the same standards that you apply to religious texts to the words of the Founding Fathers. They got much of it right, probably most of it. But they weren’t 100% right on absolutely everything.


21 posted on 05/02/2009 4:28:12 PM PDT by hunter112 (SHRUG - Stop Hussein's Radical Utopian Gameplan!)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

The rapidity with which homosexual activists continue successfully to bully the nation to normalize what once was universally considered abnormal is astonishing.

No its not.
Most Americans have become cowards.
They will no longer stand up for what they believe in.
20 years ago it would have been inconcievable for a Socialist like Obama to become President. Americans have lost their soul. We are just a shell of what our fore fathers were...


22 posted on 05/02/2009 4:29:20 PM PDT by SECURE AMERICA (Coming to You From the Front Lines of Occupied America)
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To: hunter112

HEGELIAN DIALECTICS HAS BEEN EMPLOYED BY EDUCATORS in America since the 1920s to move the educational system from the old concept of moral absolutism and submission to a higher authority to the new philosophy of relativism and constant change. “The collective moulding begins early in life, sustained and refined throughout one’s formal education; a universal curriculum of manipulation can transform and achieve a complete paradigm shift for a whole generation” (Terry Melanson).


23 posted on 05/02/2009 4:29:24 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: GodGunsGuts

*


24 posted on 05/02/2009 4:32:11 PM PDT by SweetCaroline (Dear GOD help us save your babies from the Abortionist.)
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To: ODDITHER

This is a great post. I have had friends, in-laws, and co-workers who were homosexual. I would not like to see them tortured or imprisoned, any more than someone who was bipolar or had another mental illness (unless of course, as you said, they engage in criminal behavior because of it.) I consider it a form of mental illness.


25 posted on 05/02/2009 4:37:58 PM PDT by conservative cat (America, you have been PWNED!)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
There is a fundamental difference between the practice of involuntary servitude or treating people as mere property as opposed to people who define their entire lives around their sordid sexual perversions.

Would you mind explaining that one to me?

Let me qualify that. I understand the difference per se. One is A, the other is B.

Explain this fundamental difference to me- I don't want to read too much into that one post.

26 posted on 05/02/2009 4:45:27 PM PDT by Prodigal Son
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To: conservative cat
I agree, great post. And of course we don't want to see them tortured or imprisoned, nor would that happen. The trouble is, to activists, it is either 100% acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle, marriage, kids, teaching it in schools, banning speaking of it Churches as sin, OR you want them dead, or tortured, or imprisoned, or not allowed to work, or some such nonsense. These people are hateful, vicious, and vile, and will use any manner of intimidation they can come up with to get their way.

They are like children, who always want something more, and will push and push till they get it. When the final result is no, instead of realizing the parent may not have the money, or the item would put them in danger, or any number of real reasons they cannot have what they want, they scream YOU HATE ME!!

27 posted on 05/02/2009 5:01:20 PM PDT by gidget7 (Duncan Hunter-Valley Forge Republican!)
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To: Prodigal Son

Another word for fundamental is basic and I believe I explained the basic difference clearly. There is no comparison between involuntary servitude of Africans in Colonial America/Early America and the moral decay we find ourselves in today regarding homosexuality...degenerate people shamelessly demanding acceptance of their preferred sexual perversion. Only weak-minded people can be shamed and made to feel guilty...thus capitulating.


28 posted on 05/02/2009 5:04:58 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: conservative cat

I remember a 48 Hours story on a 12 year old boy...he shot his grandparents at close range with a shotgun...burnt down the house with a slow burn using candles...stole their vehicle and claimed a black man kidnapped him. His lawyers and family said the anti-depressant made him do it. We need to be careful about just excusing sin by calling it mentally ill.


29 posted on 05/02/2009 5:12:45 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Ok. I guess what I wanted for you to do is say which one is worse.

Homosexuality or slavery?

And like I said, I don’t want to read into your post. The answer to that one wasn’t clear to me or I wouldn’t have asked.


30 posted on 05/02/2009 5:17:23 PM PDT by Prodigal Son
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To: hunter112

Was the American Founding Unjust? (The Case of Slavery) Part 1 of 2

In the infamous Dred Scott case in 1857, the Supreme Court declared that blacks had never been citizens in the United States. In fact, free blacks were not only citizens but voted in most Northern states and in Virginia, North Carolina, and South Carolina. In New Jersey, women, including black women, had the right to vote for 30 years after 1776

1) http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a377e2d151100.htm
2) http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a377e2f80122d.htm


31 posted on 05/02/2009 5:23:10 PM PDT by donna (Air Force One: WHO WAS ON THE PLANE?)
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Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

To: Conservative Coulter Fan; 185JHP; AFA-Michigan; Abathar; Agitate; AliVeritas; Antoninus; ...
Homosexual Agenda Ping

Freepmail wagglebee or DirtyHarryY2K to subscribe or unsubscribe from the homosexual agenda ping list.

Be sure to click the FreeRepublic homosexual agenda keyword search link for a list of all related articles. We don't ping you to all related articles so be sure to click the previous link to see the latest articles.

Add keywords homosexual agenda to flag FR articles to this ping list.

Checkout: http://SilencingChristians.com


33 posted on 05/02/2009 6:14:29 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

great post!


34 posted on 05/02/2009 6:28:43 PM PDT by BonRad (As Rome goes so goes the world)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

More history and truth that is scorned and censored by the Big Government, Far Left, Public School Tsars.


35 posted on 05/02/2009 6:33:50 PM PDT by Old Landmarks (No fear of man, none!)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
A revealing history of Free Republic will reveal something in this same vein.

That is, how often the lying closet leftists on Free Republic will post opposition to a thread like this one by quoting and linking to a site of the far left, such as the Southern Poverty Law Center, or the ACLU, or Norman Lears sham organization, PAW.

This will usually be triggered by any facts that do not line up with liberal revisionist history as shaped by those who fight against our vital and essential conservative Judeo/Christian foundation.

36 posted on 05/02/2009 6:42:56 PM PDT by Old Landmarks (No fear of man, none!)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
Here's a pretty good prayer song
37 posted on 05/02/2009 7:24:40 PM PDT by ckilmer (Phi)
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To: Evil Slayer

Can you really pick and choose from Leviticus? Further wisdom from Leviticus:

“If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people.” (Leviticus 20:18)

“Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.” (Leviticus 25:44-45)

“Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.” (Leviticus 19:27)

“...and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you.” (Leviticus 11:7)

“...do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material.” (Leviticus 19:19)

“But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you.” (Leviticus 11:10)

Are your clothes holy, or a cotton mix ? Pity about all those sinners at the Red Lobster though.


38 posted on 05/02/2009 7:47:41 PM PDT by tlb
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan; Allegra; big'ol_freeper; Lil'freeper; TrueKnightGalahad; blackie; ...
Re: Of those living today in America who were alive 50 years ago, few could have imagined, let alone predicted, that homosexuality would encroach on our culture as it has.

Or those of us alive better than 50 years ago now cannot believe that smokers are looked upon like lepers, junk science would push a scam called Global Warming that will kill our energy economy, the Congress would actually be considering a bill to do away with the secret ballot, elected officials under the guise of the Democrat Party openly score our national heritage, making laws forcing banks to make unsound loans to people than cannot repay them, then blame the lenders as greedy when the mortgages hit the fans, bowing down to the religion of Islam while trashing a beauty queer for her Christian views on marriage and finally the President of these United States refuses to provide a birth certificate while acting as if those exercising their free speech at the Tea Parties are like the Jews in Nazi Germany, something not worth any note or importance.

Remember, Hitler was not a citizen of Germany when elected Chancellor of Germany in 1933.

Yes, my sixth decade will not be enjoyable as I expect our fearless Democrats Leaders to invite the Muslim Terrorists to nuke us at their leisure.

God may forgive these traitorous SOBs, I will not. May the burn in hell!

39 posted on 05/02/2009 8:07:20 PM PDT by Bender2 ("I've got a twisted sense of humor, and everything amuses me." RAH Beyond this Horizon)
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To: Paved Paradise
Of course this is true but the fact is that slavery used to be legal and this is often one of the levers used to say that the old laws against homosexuality were just as egregiously wrong. I’m just sayin’ since that’s one of the big arguments you know.

Gee. Murder and robbery were illegal then, too. Should we legalize them, too? (Just a reasonable response to such nonsense to get them to admit that some of the things which were illegal should stay that way.)

40 posted on 05/03/2009 1:36:53 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: gidget7
The trouble is, to activists, it is either 100% acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle, marriage, kids, teaching it in schools, banning speaking of it Churches as sin, OR you want them dead, or tortured, or imprisoned, or not allowed to work, or some such nonsense.

This is a common liberal tactic. Extrapolate the opposition's position to a hyperbolic extreme and present that as the only (and usually unacceptable) alternative.

Frankly, when social pressure was against open homosexual behaviour, I think there was less homosexuality, and far fewer people being confused by the predators out there.

Some of us remember when normal couples rarely (if ever) kissed in public. Holding hands with your girlfriend or spouse was about as far as it got if you were 'respectable'.

41 posted on 05/03/2009 1:48:10 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: JSDude1
...one can be born black (which was the basis of slavery in the US...

One did not have to be black to be a slave in the US, nor were all blacks slaves. Freemen did not have the same rights, granted, but they were not slaves, and some of them were owners. The issue is far different than the (black) racists present it (primarily in an attempt to justify 'reparations').

In addition, indentured servitude, usually undertaken to work off a debt, was just short-term (usually seven years) slavery, and an apprenticeship little better.

42 posted on 05/03/2009 1:55:13 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: Bender2
Roger That!!!
43 posted on 05/03/2009 5:41:58 AM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist - Obama is basically Jim Jones with a teleprompter)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
My favorite of the Founders quotes* on homosexuality is:

"I just threw up a little in my mouth." - George Washington, May 17, 1983.

*It is entirely possible that I flat made this up.

44 posted on 05/03/2009 5:50:41 AM PDT by Onelifetogive (Check out Puppy News at www.buyingapuppy.com)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Thanks for that great post. Since it opens by discussing how this abomination has manifested in our society during the past 50 years, i think the following is also relevant:

“In 1973 homosexuality per se was removed from the DSM-II classification of mental disorders and replaced by the category Sexual Orientation Disturbance. This represented a compromise between the view that preferential homosexuality is invariably a mental disorder and the view that it is merely a normal sexual variant.”


45 posted on 05/03/2009 6:03:09 AM PDT by Canedawg (Support and defend the Constitution, and fight back against the Idiocracy.)
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To: Smokin' Joe

I am telling you one of the arguments used and it is persuasive. In spite of my understanding that homosexuality is a sin and has serious consequences for a society that not only condones it but glorifies it, I still would not equate it with murder or robbery. These are the reasons we sometimes look like fools. Best not to make equivalencies like that - they don’t work.

In the meantime, many approved of slavery and while slavery was never condemned in the scriptures, it is very clear that the Commandments themselves would prohibit the “owning” of another human, and in particular, the treatment of such as substandard or, even worse, treatment that would not even be humane for an animal. We are commanded to love our neighbor but many seemed to have no issue with slavery.

It is a much more useful argument than yours. While I can hold strong to my views, I am not naive about the positions the other side takes and some of the points that they make and that some of them are, in fact, substantive, and attractive to many who consider themselves equanimous.


46 posted on 05/03/2009 7:38:38 AM PDT by Paved Paradise
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To: Prodigal Son

My apologies, but there is no good reason to answer that question. I don’t need to go down a list of sins a rank them from worse to worser..


47 posted on 05/03/2009 10:46:27 AM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: Bender2

I’m with you, 100%!

Be Ever Vigilant!


48 posted on 05/03/2009 10:55:57 AM PDT by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: tlb; Prodigal Son
"Again, it has been said, the Apostle Paul did not condemn Slavery, for he sent Onesimus back to Philemon. I do not think it can be said he sent him back, for no coercion was made use of. Onesimus was not thrown into prison and then sent back in chains to his master, as your runaway slaves often are--this could not possibly have been the case, because you know Paul as a Jew, was _bound to protect_ the runaway, _he had no right_ to send any fugitive back to his master. The state of the case then seems to have been this. Onesimus had been an unprofitable servant to Philemon and left him--he afterwards became converted under the Apostle's preaching, and seeing that he had been to blame in his conduct, and desiring by future fidelity to atone for past error, he wished to return, and the Apostle gave him the letter we now have as a recommendation to Philemon, informing him of the conversion of Onesimus, and entreating him as "Paul the aged" "to receive him, _not_ now as a servant, but _above_ a servant, a brother beloved, especially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the flesh and in the Lord. If thou count _me_ therefore as a partner, _receive him as myself_." This then surely cannot be forced into a justification of the practice of returning runaway slaves back to their masters, to be punished with cruel beatings and scourgings as they often are. Besides the word [Greek: doulos] here translated servant, is the same that is made use of in Matt. xviii, 27. Now it appears that this servant owed his lord ten thousand talents; he possessed property to a vast amount. Onesimus could not then have been a _slave_, for slaves do not own their wives, or children; no, not even their own bodies, much less property. But again, the servitude which the apostle was accustomed to, must have been very different from American slavery, for he says, "the heir (or son), as long as he is a child, differeth _nothing from a servant_, though he be lord of all. But is under _tutors_ and governors until the time appointed of the father." From this it appears, that the means of _instruction_ were provided for _servants_ as well as children; and indeed we know it must have been so among the Jews, because their servants were not permitted to remain in perpetual bondage, and therefore it was absolutely necessary they should be prepared to occupy higher stations in society than those of servants. Is it so at the South, my friends? Is the daily bread of instruction provided for _your slaves?_ are their minds enlightened, and they gradually prepared to rise from the grade of menials into that of _free_, independent members of the state? Let your own statute book, and your own daily experience, answer these questions.

If this apostle sanctioned _slavery_, why did he exhort masters-thus in his epistle to the Ephesians, "and ye, masters, do the same things unto them (i.e. perform your duties to your servants as unto Christ, not unto me) _forbearing threatening_; knowing that your master also is in heaven, neither is _there respect of persons with him_." And in Colossians, "Masters give unto your servants that which is _just and equal_, knowing that ye also have a master in heaven." Let slaveholders only obey these injunctions of Paul, and I am satisfied slavery would soon be abolished. If he thought it sinful even to _threaten_ servants, surely he must have thought it sinful to flog and to beat them with sticks and paddles; indeed, when delineating the character of a bishop, he expressly names this as one feature of it, "_no striker_." Let masters give unto their servants that which is _just_ and _equal_, and all that vast system of unrequited labor would crumble into ruin. Yes, and if they once felt they had no right to the _labor_ of their servants without pay, surely they could not think they had a right to their wives, their children, and their own bodies. Again, how can it be said Paul sanctioned slavery, when, as though to put this matter beyond all doubt, in that black catalogue of sins enumerated in his first epistle to Timothy, he mentions "_menstealers_," which word may be translated "_slavedealers_." But you may say, we all despise slavedealers as much as any one can; they are never admitted into genteel or respectable society. And why not? Is it not because even you shrink back from the idea of associating with those who make their fortunes by trading in the bodies and souls of men, women, and children? whose daily work it is to break human hearts, by tearing wives from their husbands, and children from their parents? But why hold slavedealers as despicable, if their trade is lawful and virtuous? and why despise them more than the _gentlemen of fortune and standing_ who employ them as _their_ agents? Why more than the _professors of religion_ who barter their fellow-professors to them for gold and silver? We do not despise the land agent, or the physician, or the merchant, and why? Simply because their professions are virtuous and honorable; and if the trade of men-jobbers was honorable, you would not despise them either. There is no difference in _principle_, in _Christian ethics_, between the despised slavedealer and the _Christian_ who buys slaves from, or sells slaves, to him; indeed, if slaves were not wanted by the respectable, the wealthy, and the religious in a community, there would be no slaves in that community, and of course no _slavedealers_. It is then the _Christians_ and the _honorable men_ and _women_ of the South, who are the _main pillars_ of this grand temple built to Mammon and to Moloch. It is the _most enlightened_ in every country who are _most_ to blame when any public sin is supported by public opinion, hence Isaiah says, "_When_ the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount _Zion_ and on _Jerusalem_, (then) I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks." And was it not so? Open the historical records of that age, was not Israel carried into captivity B.C. 606, Judah B.C. 588, and the stout heart of the heathen monarchy not punished until B.C. 536, fifty-two years _after_ Judah's, and seventy years _after_ Israel's captivity, when it was overthrown by Cyrus, king of Persia? Hence, too, the apostle Peter says, "judgment must _begin at the house of God_." Surely this would not be the case, if the _professors of religion_ were not _most worthy_ of blame. But it may be asked, why are _they_ most culpable? I will tell you, my friends. It is because sin is imputed to us just in proportion to the spiritual light we receive. Thus the prophet Amos says, in the name of Jehovah, "You _only_ have I known of all the families of the earth: _therefore_ I will punish _you_ for all your iniquities." Hear too the doctrine of our Lord on this important subject; "The servant who _knew_ his Lord's will and _prepared not_ himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with _many_ stripes:" and why? "For unto whomsoever _much_ is given, _of him_ shall _much_ be required; and to whom men have committed _much_, of _him_ they will ask the _more_." Oh! then that the _Christians_ of the south would ponder these things in their hearts, and awake to the vast responsibilities which rest _upon them_ at this important crisis.

I have thus, I think, clearly proved to you seven propositions, viz.: First, that slavery is contrary to the declaration of our independence. Second, that it is contrary to the first charter of human rights given to Adam, and renewed to Noah. Third, that the fact of slavery having been the subject of prophecy, furnishes _no_ excuse whatever to slavedealers. Fourth, that no such system existed under the patriarchal dispensation. Fifth, that _slavery never_ existed under the Jewish dispensation; but so far otherwise, that every servant was placed under the _protection of law_, and care taken not only to prevent all _involuntary_ servitude, but all _voluntary perpetual_ bondage. Sixth, that slavery in America reduces a _man_ to a _thing_, a "chattel personal," _robs him_ of _all_ his rights as a _human being_, fetters both his mind and body, and protects the _master_ in the most unnatural and unreasonable power, whilst it throws him out_ of the protection of law. Seventh, that slavery is contrary to the example and precepts of our holy and merciful Redeemer, and of his apostles."--Angelina Emily Grimke, 'An Appeal to the Christian Women of the South'
49 posted on 05/03/2009 11:25:21 AM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

However, slavery is an OK alternative to execution or starvation.


50 posted on 05/03/2009 11:30:12 AM PDT by alrea (4% profit on a gallon of gas is obscene but over 15% tax isn't)
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