Skip to comments.The Obama Birth Certificate
Posted on 05/05/2009 5:25:04 AM PDT by IrishMike
Under Hawaiian law, it is possible (both legally and illegally) for a person to have been born out of state, yet have a birth certificate on file in the Department of Health. Somehow, you know its coming. That OMG moment is just around the corner. You can feel the inescapable reality creeping up on you. Something will leak. Someone will spill the beans. "For nothing is hid that shall not be made manifest, nor anything secret that shall not be known and come to light." Luke 8:17
It isn't hard to imagine the gnawing anxiety that AKA OBAMA (Also Known As: an acronym used to describe suspicious persons who use more than one name) lives with, day in and day out. Much has been written about AKA OBAMAs behavior that reminds mental health experts and others of NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder.) A frequent manifestation of such a disorder is The Narcissist, as Liar and Con-man.
This disorder is frequently misunderstood as "self-love." A more accurate understanding is love of a reflection of ones self. Abused, abandoned and neglected children will compensate for damaged egos by creating an ideal reflection of themselves that they then embellish and vigorously defend. A person with NPD is quite capable of a mind twisting position like, "I have nothing to hide, but I am hiding things anyway." AKA OBAMA certainly fits the model of having such a childhood. While I am not in the position to deliver an official In Absentia diagnosis of a full strength NPD case, many of the indicators are present.
If AKA OBAMA were not in a position of public trust, most of us would probably overlook such deception and secrecy. For those of us who care about our Constitution and the rule of law, the issue becomes clear in this article that appeared in online Pravda by international columnist Mark S. McGrew, "The Mysterious Shadow: Code Name Obama." Most Americans do not want their president to be secretive about his past. However, if one is living a lie to preserve the ego-compensating, idealized reflection of self, one will go to great lengths to hide things that most would routinely reveal.
For the person who has NPD tendencies, the lies used to create the reflection become so numerous that eventually the man in the mirror cracks, and so does the real human being hiding behind the reflection.
A useful tool in evaluating things that are not known with certainty is Occams razor. When multiple competing hypotheses are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the hypothesis that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood. I condense this to the simple question: what is most likely? In our discussion of the documents which AKA has hidden, most of this article is an examination of which explanation is most likely.
For example, which is most likely:
(a) AKA OBAMA is hiding documents that are innocuous?
(b) AKA OBAMA is hiding documents that are damaging?
What we know with certainty is that AKA OBAMA is not practicing the virtue of full disclosure.
The biggest question, and the biggest reason for asking more questions, is the fact Obama has enlisted law firms across the nation to battle every attempt to access, among other documents, his birth, schooling, immigration or passport records. New Jersey attorney Mario Apuzzo.
There are so many potential sources that can end AKA OBAMAs Presidency that it is impossible to keep them all quiet. Its just a matter of time. As columnist Davvy Kidd says, "IMPOSTOR PRESIDENT OBAMA: VICTORY WILL BE SHORT LIVED." First, lets think of all the lawyers and support staff involved in keeping the birth certificate issue quiet. Isn't it likely that some of them know what they are hiding? Isn't it likely that several people at the Hawaiian Department of Public Health know what is, or is not, on the original birth certificate that AKA OBAMA refuses to release? Did you know that there is a one million dollar reward offered for AKA OBAMAs Hawaiian birth certificate?
Please get this straight: Hawaiian officials have not validated AKA OBAMA's place of birth. What they have said is that they "have the original document" on file. They haven't offered a clue as to what information is in that document. They cannot legally validate what is on that document without a court order or permission from "our" Chicago con-man.
Laws of the Territory of Hawaii ACT 96 To Provide For The Issuance Of Certificates Of Hawaiian Birth was in effect from 1911 until 1972 and allowed someone who was born outside the Hawaiian Islands to be registered as though he were born in Hawaii. Under that law, someone simply would have presented herself to the Hawaiian authorities and declared that the child was born in Hawaii. The person could have sworn under oath and presented witnesses and other evidence. If the authorities accepted it, that was the end of it. The only way to know where AKA OBAMA was actually born is to view AKA OBAMA's original birth certificate from 1961 to see what kind of birth certificate it is, and to examine what corroborating evidence supports what it says about AKA OBAMA's alleged place of birth. If the birth was in a hospital, as AKA OBAMA has maintained, such evidence would be the name of the hospital and the name and signature of the doctor who delivered him.
The Certification of Live Birth that was published on AKA OBAMA's campaign web site is not a Birth Certificate. It is easy to tell the difference between the two types of documents. It is very likely that the COLB used by AKA OBAMA's campaign is a fraudulent document. Several forensic document examiners have carefully scrutinized the COLB and declared it suspicious or an obvious forgery. The best evidence presented so far is from Ron Polarik, PhD. Dr. Polarik writes:
There are laws on the books in Hawaii and the Federal Statutes that clearly spell out exactly what constitutes forgery, and in both Hawaii State Law and the Federal Statutes, the act of altering an official government document even if it is just a facsimile of that document constitutes forgery. The bogus COLB that Obama created is also considered to be a "false identification document, a felony forgery."
Dr. Polariks evidence is preserved online. There is also a YouTube video summary of the evidence.
Forensic document examiner Sandra Ramsey Lines, a Former Federal Examiner with a long history of expert testimony in state and federal courts, has testified in an affidavit that states, in part:
I can state with certainty that the COLB presented on the internet by the various groups, which include the "Daily Kos," the Obama Campaign, "Factcheck.org" and others cannot be relied upon as genuine. Dr. Polarik raises issues concerning the COLB that I can affirm. Software such as Adobe Photoshop can produce complete images or alter images that appear to be genuine; therefore, any image offered on the internet cannot be relied upon as being a copy of the authentic document.
Sandra Ramsey Lines summary is posted at U. S. Law Blog.
As long as we are on the subject of falsified documents, it seems that AKA OBAMA never registered for the draft, as required by Selective Service laws. When his career began to be noticed by the public, suddenly draft registration records appeared. Unfortunately for AKA OBAMA these documents have also been exposed as forgeries.
Another piece of information that many fail to realize is that in the birth certificate cases, all that is needed is for the case to be heard. This case will be over in the "Discovery" phase. Before a trial starts, both sides are required by the court to put all their cards on the table to avoid "trial by ambush." The judge orders all evidence to be presented by both sides. Since this case is about discovering documents that are hidden, the case will be decided by court-ordered presentation of all relevant records. Lawyers in birth certificate cases don't need to win a trial; they only need to get a trial.
Enough on the hidden birth certificate and forged documents.
For those of you who think ridicule and name calling are effective debate tactics, I refer your kool-aid drenched, tin foil protected brains (a dose of your own medicine) to this article from American Thinker: "Why the Barack Obama Birth Certificate Issue Is Legitimate."
What about the legal team that is keeping AKA OBAMAs college records hidden? Several people probably know what they are hiding. The best guess as to what is so secret isn't likely to be bad grades. More likely his admission papers will say he was a foreign student, or that he was receiving financial aid as a foreign student. How many people do you estimate already know what is on AKA OBAMA's college documents? Those records were handled routinely for more than 20 years. How many personnel in the registrar's offices of Occidental College, Columbia University, and Harvard University have seen AKA OBAMA's records and know what is in them? How many of those people would be willing to talk about it, or maybe even "leak" just one sheet of paper that would put even more cracks in AKA OBAMA's mirror? Is that number likely to be zero? Do you think that AKA OBAMA worries about how many people know something that could destroy his career? Fear of being "found out" is an obsession for NPD types.
So far we have only talked about the original birth certificate, supposedly locked up in Hawaii, and AKA OBAMA's draft and college records. Already the potential sources for leaks are numerous. And you can bet that AKA OBAMA and his lawyers are concerned about many more possible leaks than these.
There is a long list of vulnerability points for leaks, and there is a story behind every one of them:
Soetoro adoption records Punahou (Indonesia) School records Passports records Any INS (Immigration & Naturalization Services) or port of entry documentation which may have been generated in his infancy or childhood Selective Service Registration (Released, but is possibly an altered document) Harvard Law Review articles (None, maybe 1, not signed) University of Chicago scholarly articles (None) Law practice client list Illinois State Senate records (locked up to prohibit public view) Illinois State Senate schedule (Lost. All other Illinois State Senators' records are intact) Baptism certificate Medical records
International columnist Mark S. McGrew sums it up succinctly:
With all of Obama's different names, with his documented long-term relations to convicted criminals, with his active efforts to prohibit us from knowing where he was born, with his active efforts to keep us from seeing his credentials, with his documented registration to practice law, professing to have only one name, with his being an ex-attorney not authorized to practice law, but representing himself as such, with his non-existent "Office of The President Elect," with the dozen or so lawsuits against him to determine his citizenship status, with the various promises he made to voters and on which he has since reneged, with his documented lack of respect to America, with his refusal to salute the American flag with others on stage or even to stand at attention, and his other disrespectful actions, with his many millions of dollars in campaign funds suspected to be from foreign sources, with campaign donations accepted from possible terrorists groups . . . Obama has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he can not in any way, shape or form be trusted.
I would ask the reader to accept the premise that there are many potential leaks from those things that are being kept hidden by a man who promised transparency in government. But there are other problems from sources that are not hidden.
AKA OBAMA himself has made it known that his father was from Kenya.
We know that records indicate that AKA OBAMA's biological father was Barack Obama Sr., a Kenyan native, and a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.'s offspring. We know that the geographical location of AKA OBAMA's birth is not considered by British law. Who the father was determines citizenship, not where you are born. Had AKA OBAMA been born in Tokyo or Texas he would still be a citizen of the United Kingdom under The British Nationality Act. A similar practice governs who is considered a citizen in several countries. Judaism is matrilineal, meaning that your mother's lineage determines whether you are a Jew. That is why Jews from all over the world can claim Israeli citizenship.
British Nationality Act of 1948 (Part II, Section 5): Subject to the provisions of this section, a person born after the commencement of this Act shall be a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by descent if his father is a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies at the time of the birth.
In other words, at the time of his birth, AKA OBAMA might have been a U.S. citizen (by virtue of his allegedly being born in Hawaii) and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (the UKC) by virtue of being born to a father who was a citizen of the UKC.
Obama's British citizenship was short-lived. On Dec. 12, 1963, Kenya formally gained its independence from the United Kingdom. Chapter VI, Section 87 of the Kenyan Constitution specifies that:
1. Every person who, having been born in Kenya is, on 11th December, 1963 a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies or a British protected person shall become a citizen of Kenya on 12th December, 1963 . . .
2. Every person who, having been born outside Kenya is, on 11th December, 1963 a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies or a British protected person shall, if his father becomes, or would but for his death have become, a citizen of Kenya by virtue of subsection (1), becomes a citizen of Kenya on the 12th of December, 1963.
As a citizen of the UKC who was born in Kenya, Obama's father automatically received Kenyan citizenship via subsection (1). So given that Obama qualified for citizen of the UKC status at birth and given that Obama's father became a Kenyan citizen via subsection (1), it follows that Obama did in fact have Kenyan citizenship after 1963.
So we know for sure that, if OBAMA Sr. is in fact his legal father, then AKA OBAMA was a citizen of the United Kingdom and then Kenya. Given all the efforts to keep his birth certificate hidden, it is reasonable to assume that he is not a citizen of the United States, but even if he were born in downtown Denver he would still have triple citizenship, and is thus ineligible to hold the office of President.
There is a similar problem with AKA OBAMA's possible Indonesian citizenship. School records have surfaced that clearly indicate AKA OBAMA was listed as a "Muslim" with "Indonesian" citizenship.
So AKA OBAMA has been a citizen of the UK, Kenya, and there are inconclusive documents indicating that he was also a citizen of Indonesia. The missing birth certificate may be a false clue that leads away from the big crime. Even if Obama were born in Hawaii he would still be ineligible to serve as President because of his dual (perhaps triple) citizenship. (AKA OBAMA has spent Six Hundred and Eighty-Eight Thousand Dollars ($688,000.00) on legal fees defending against lawsuits claiming that he is not eligible. Why would AKA OBAMA spend that much money to hide a $10 Birth Certificate?)
Pay attention to this next quoted paragraph:
Don't be distracted by the birth certificate and Indonesian issues. They are irrelevant to Senator Obama's ineligibility to be President. Since Barack Obama's father was a Citizen of Kenya, and therefore subject to the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom at the time of Senator Obama's birth, then Senator Obama was a British Citizen "at birth," just like the Framers of the Constitution, and therefore, even if he were to produce an original birth certificate proving he were born on US soil, he still wouldn't be eligible to be President. Leo C. Donofrio
The facts are clear, and the law is clear. All it will take is for a judge to issue a ruling. Do you think AKA OBAMA and his lawyers fret about this? They certainly are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to fight this issue. So far, no court or judge has issued a ruling on the merits of any legal case against AKA OBAMA. Cases have been dismissed on legal technicalities, but no actual case has yet been heard.
There are other potential leaks that come from AKA OBAMA's international history. If Obama was born in Kenya, there should be a record of that birth in UK records. There are probably people in England and Kenya who already have information that would put cracks in AKA OBAMA's distorted reflection of himself, and there is other information that can be mined from archives. The same is true for Indonesia.
In the unlikely outcome that none of the people talk, and none of the documents surface, would AKA OBAMA than be free of obsessive fear of being found out? No, even if none of his secrets are revealed and none of his lies are exposed, he will continue to remain vulnerable.
Because of the way AKA OBAMA ran his campaign; donations from Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse, donations from illegal foreign sources, and ACORN's crimes, etc, he is subject to criminal violations of the Internal Revenue Code, federal campaign finance laws, and laws against voter registration fraud, according to a memo by Cleta Mitchell, co-chairman of the Republican National Lawyers Association.
You may have noticed that the usual role of the media in ferreting out high jinks in high places has not been mentioned. There is no "All the President's Men" movie in the making. No one is being considered for a Pulitzer Prize for investigating AKA OBAMA. Is journalism dead in America? Well no, not quite.
Somebody, a major news outlet executive, has done the Pulitzer research. On his To The Point News website, Dr. Jack Wheeler said he will, "Let the source of the information reveal it, in his own time . . . the details of what he told me are for him to reveal when he chooses, not me. I can tell you it is OMG wild."
So get ready folks. One of these days I will be asking all of you AKA Obama fans to, "All together now, say OMG!"
My conclusion: Obama will be indicted and charged very soon. Keep in mind that the role of a grand jury is to determine if enough evidence exists to refer a case to the courts for trial. Can any objective person review information like that presented above and reject the premise that this case needs to be referred to the courts for prosecution?
It is very likely that the American Grand Jury effort will result in an indictment by a conventionally impaneled Grand Jury.
The American Grand Jury was designed in a unique and very creative manner. Bob Campbell, the Founder of American Grand Jury, wanted to find a way to impanel a grand jury that was convenient, available free of charge to all citizens, and had maximum impact. He came up with a brilliant plan!
From across the nation, citizens can collectively examine and discuss the evidence, make a decision whether to indict, and then act with the full power of the U.S. Constitution to present the indictment to local, state and federal authorities. American Grand Jury will also empower individual representatives to act on behalf of American Grand Jury Members and make presentments of evidence to jurisdictions anywhere in the United States. These representatives will be sworn in and subject to an oath similar to the American Grand Jury Members, and will then be authorized to make presentments to such authorities as Sheriffs, County, State and Federal Prosecutors.
Even if the American Grand Jury were ignored, and deemed legally impotent, we can still expect a powerfully awakening increase in awareness and outrage on the part of the citizens. There are many potencies beyond the legal system.
However, it is highly unlikely that not even one jurisdiction will take action on the indictment. All we need is one jurisdiction to order "Discovery." The case against AKA OBAMA is unique because it will be over in the Discovery phase, as the first step in a criminal complaint. The goal of the project is to discover what AKA OBAMA doesn't want us to know, and why he doesn't want us to know it. Our goal will be achieved without a trial.
Our goal is to present indictments in every jurisdiction of the union: 50 States 3,007 entities named "County" 16 Boroughs in Alaska 11 Census Areas in Alaska (for areas not organized into Boroughs by the State) 64 Parishes in Louisiana 42 Independent Cities (1 in Maryland, 1 in Missouri, 1 in Nevada, and the remainder in Virginia) 1 District - the Federal District or District of Columbia.
For a total of 3,191 opportunities to bring criminal charges against offending politicians.
Even if an independently convened grand jury is mistakenly seen as merely people assembling to exercise their Constitutional right to "redress their grievances," that is no small thing. Hundreds of people in such "assemblies" will be examining evidence and presenting the results of their investigations to appropriate county, state, and federal authorities, some of whom will almost certainly form more conventional Grand Juries to indict AKA OBAMA. Can one honestly surmise that there is not one prosecutor or judge in the entire nation who questions AKA OBAMA's eligibility to be President?
Once the American Grand Jury presentments are made, it is likely that many prosecutors and judges will want a copy of the evidence.
The American Grand Jury organization with which I am affiliated is using recognized expert witnesses with a long professional history of forensic testimony. The guiding principles for the project are the usual protocols of epistemology, scientific methodology, and rules of evidence. Any prosecutor or judge who ignores such evidence and testimony is at risk of being seen as acquiescent.
Great job, Mike! (Check out my tagline.)
Obama was sworn to uphold the US Constitution and the laws of the land and has ignored them at all turns. Would any of us be surprised if we learned he was not legally able to serve as POTUS?
I’m happy this birth certificate issue has not gone away. We need to know the truth.
A beauty....Kenya tell me where Obama was born?
Well can you ?
Just out of curiosity, what name is on his marriage documents?
Recently I read that under the FIA, Colgate College released some of BO s financial aid records. It shows him getting foreign student aid under the Indonesian citizenship. This means he either falsely claimed to be a foreign student to get aid or he was a foreign student eligible for aid.
self ping for later
Not going away.
If a foreign power has the proof, we will never know. They certainly won’t bring it forward. They will just use it to blackmail Barry.
That’s exactly why I believe none of his university records are available. I believe he registered for school as a foreign national and either, 1) is not a US citizen, or 2) registered falsely to get scholarship consideration.
Here is a picture of it....
Therefore, The Majority Of The Amrican People® will never read it.
I believe Oboma thinks he was personally chosen by Allah himself to lead the nations. Oboma won't be the one who cracks. It'll be those associated with him.
The democrats know they have but little time, and having great rage because of it, are doing all the damage they can while they can. The grasshoppers want to feed - again - but they've outnumbered the ants. Someone has to starve.
The ants can live without the government manna. It's the democrat base who can't.
Without the promise of free manna, the democrat base has nothing, and will eventually become well aware of it. It was the democrats who put them in the position they 'll find themselves in.
There will be a great awakening.
For example, which is most likely:
(a) AKA OBAMA is hiding documents that are innocuous?
(b) AKA OBAMA is hiding documents that are damaging?
...uhhh, B! Probably both.
1. Occidental College records — Not released
2. Columbia College records — Not released
3. Columbia Thesis paper — “Not available”
4. Harvard College records — Not released
5. Selective Service Registration — Not released
6. Medical records — Not released
7. Illinois State Senate schedule — Not available
8. Your Illinois State Senate records — Not available
9. Law practice client list — Not released
10. Certified Copy of original Birth certificate — Not released
11. Embossed, signed paper Certification of Live Birth — Not released
12. Record of your baptism — Not available
Oh and one more thing Senator, I can’t seem to find any articles you
published as editor of the Harvard Law Review, or as a Professor at the
University of Chicago. Can you explain that to me Sir?
There will be a great awakening.
Here’s hoping that’s pretty soon.
My wife, the other day, said it must be something else.
She said it must be that he was born in the USA but that the BC listed him as “White” or the BC had “Muslim” on it somewhere.
That’s why the fight to keep it covered.
If it were just the birth certificate I could write it off as a fluke but this man has a whole string of missing or manipulated records.
Colgate? I've read he attended the University of Hawaii, then transferred to Pepperdine (or Occidental?) thence on to Columbia, from there to Harvard for his law degree. There seems to be some confusion as to what schools he attended (no one at Columbia, for instance, remembers him) & now Colgate is thrown into the mix.
For ignoring this travesty, the entire US Supreme Court should be tarred, feathered, run out of town on a rail, and sent to prison for deriliction of their sworn duty to uphold the Constitution.
Other than Obama slurpers and lovers, how can anyone have faith, trust or respect for the Supreme Court for allowing this injustice to continue?
This is the first I’ve heard of Colgate AND Pepperdine.
No wonder hussein is in a hurry to fill the courts with his people.
If this happened, and his defenders attempted to keep him in office by a number of ways, could very well begin a civil war in this country.
This is more serious than many acknowledge. This is why these documents will be vigorously defended from going public.
We will probably find out he was not a natural born citizen well after his time in office....about 20 years or so.
Think about all the documents that were sealed in regards to Clinton or JFK.
The government knows dern well the ramifications of such an act against our constitution, they will do everything in their power to keep it secret.
My lil ol opinion.
On April Fool’s Day there was an article floating around alleging that Obama’s college records showed he was registered as a foreign student. I’ve seen no mention that Obama attended Colgate.
Liberals, partisan obama supporters and others are quick to label us as "birthers" while dismissing us and this issue with nothing more than a few insults and a reference to the document obama had posted on KOS. It would be interesting to hear their tortured defense of obama's eligibility while refuting this article.
These first 100 days or so have been quite a ride and not in a good way. But sooner or later, perhaps in these next 100, we have the potential to witness something quite extraordinary. For obama's sake, it would be best if we birthers are wrong and he is just playing us all by not releasing his records. For the sake of the Republic, which we love, support and many of us would die for as so many Americans have in her defense, he'd better do it soon.
After having crushed hopes and expectations during Clinton’s Administration that the truth would prevail, I wish Obama and his past would be unveiled for all to see. I doubt it will happen.
How can a coverup be so massive? It’s the question that the 9/11 conspiracy gang fails to answer, and the same question I ask here:
With all that potential for leaks, why hasn’t there been one yet?
It is a sad day for liberty to see how many judges have zero appetite to move any of these lawsuits to discovery.
Thanks for keeping on top of this issue!
Now what about it, Chief Justice Roberts?
Colgate College released some of BO s financial aid records.
Colgate? I’ve read he attended the University of Hawaii, then transferred to Pepperdine (or Occidental?) thence on to Columbia, from there to Harvard for his law degree. There seems to be some confusion as to what schools he attended (no one at Columbia, for instance, remembers him) & now Colgate is thrown into the mix.
I find it interesting that we have never and will never see his transcripts, yet when I apply for teaching positions EVERY SINGLE TRANSCIPT FROM EVERY SINGLE COLLEGE I HAVE ATTENDED ARE REQUIRED - even if a degree was not the purpose of attending a class.
Associates - community colleges (PGCC and Howard)
Humanities credits (xfer to Col) - University of Maryland
BSBA - Columbia
MBA - Webster
MAT - Lindenwood
UMSL - computer programing
And if I miss one, all hell breaks out. They think I am hiding something from them.
Best article I’ve seen! I do NOT understand why this has gone nowhere in the last year......the only thing that gives me a little doubt is this: don’t you believe that if there was anything to be found, the Clinton machine would have found it during the campaign? Or...maybe they did and are holding it over his head for a payoff (SCOTUS appt.for Bill or Hill??) W’s very old dui was blasted all over the press, but this issue is not mentioned. The other thing that I don’t like is that Rush, Hannity, or O’Reilly or any other conservatives are not talking about this. Savage has had Berg on his show and here in the Bay area Brian Sussman has as well, but the rest of the biggies are not touching it. Why?
Yesterday, FR had an article from the “Arizona Sentinel” that claimed that Obama’s Occidental College records had been released because of a court order from the Superior Court of California. The records indicated that Obama (then known as Barry Soetoro) had received financial aid as an Indonesian student while at the College. FR pulled the thread rather quickly. Why did FR do that?
Sadly, I think it was debunked as an April Fool’s joke.
The press is the institution with the power to force this issue into mainstream focus. The courts themselves do not have the courage to do their job independently... and yes I mean SCOTUS. Once the courts have been given approval by the press to pursue this (presuming it happens before they are stacked with Obama appointees), we will have our OMG moment.
Here is my prediction....
It will take a national disaster... great loss of life which will turn the press against their messiah.... but make no mistake... Obama will be betrayed by one of his own.
This is a point that very few understand and is exactly right. Under law the State of Hawaii cannot divulge any kind of information present on his documents without BHO's permission. They can only verify they have documents.
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