Posted on 05/08/2009 7:49:44 AM PDT by reaganaut1
THE Environmental Protection Agency is preparing to make an important and far-reaching decision this year that will affect more than 500 million gasoline engines powering everything from large pickups to family cars to lawn mowers: whether to grant the ethanol industry’s request to raise the maximum amount of ethanol that can be added to gasoline.
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Specifically, ethanol producers are asking that the maximum ethanol content in the most common blend of gasoline be increased from 10 percent — a limit set about three decades ago — to as much as 15 percent. The blend the industry hopes will become common is known as E15, but the E.P.A. could approve a blend between E10 and E15.
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54 ethanol manufacturers asked the [EPA] for a waiver of the Clean Air Act so that more ethanol could be added to gasoline.
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The ethanol manufacturers contend that the increase is necessary because of the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007. That act includes a renewable fuels standard that requires a steady increase in the use of biofuels in the United States — to 36 billion gallons in 2022 from 11 billion gallons this year. To meet the goals, refiners must add biofuels to gasoline.
The industry has been meeting the requirements. In 2007 , it was required to use 4.7 billion gallons of ethanol and it actually used 6.85 billion, according to the petroleum institute. Last year, when the requirement was 9 billion gallons, the industry used 9.6 billion.
But Americans are now buying far less gasoline than was expected when the law passed. That decline has the industry worried that as early as 2011 or 2012 it will be impossible to meet the renewable fuels standard with a 10 percent limit, Mr. Greco said.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
The article says ethanol quotas may not be met in the future because people are driving less. If that is the problem, reduce the quotas or set them as fractions of overall consumption. Better yet, eliminate them.
If this gunks up car engines as badly as fuel blending has ruined many boat engines- then obama has solved the problem of getting people to buy Chrysler’s new obamobiles
Ethanol costs taxpayers money to produce (above its retail price).
Ethanol creates more emissions than gasoline.
Ethanol is harmful to gasoline engines.
Ethanol produces lower fuel economy than gasoline.
So, the ethanol industry wants the taxpayers to subsize a product that is more harmful to the environment, more harmful to our automobiles and delivers lower fuel economy.
STOP THE INSANITY!
Ethanol reduces the mileage per gallon so increasing the contamination level with this crap without dropping the price makes no sense.
More ethanol, worse car gas mileage, hey why not raise the price by increasing gallon demand by lowering the mileage.
Whats worse is the Corn Lobby has commercials daily telling us how cool ethanol is. Well tell the truth. We pay good money to keep you in business and you stuff ain’t that good.
As I remember, more then 10% ethanol can cause problems with older fuel systems.
My current truck has a flex-fuel engine that will run on E85 or higher. My next truch will be a diesel. I’m not letting the Gov keep me home.
Yahbut this isn't a free country anymore.
Too many did too little for too long, and now you get to enjoy the result. America -- a great idea, didn't last.
Next time you have your car serviced, have the shop run an alcohol content test on the contents of the fuel line just prior to the injectors.
2 weeks ago, mine was 14% and I buy only “brand” (Shell, Phillips) fuel.
Hmmm, time to open a business that specializes in rebuilding engines......
Yep, but Opossum is going to give vouchers to those who trade these “clunkers” in on his new car from Chrysler, the Folks’ Wagon!
I know that tractor engines can run on low-octane gas, but how does having the octane bump from ethanol hurt? I recall stories about running AvGas in car engines and related reduction in valve life - something like that? I always figured it was due to some design difference (sodium-filled aircraft exhaust valves, or something similar).
You'd have to re-jet the carburetor to richen the mixture a bit (the higher the ethanol percentage, the more this would be needed). I think fuel system parts (carb gaskets, floats, fuel line, fuel pump) would be the biggest concern. Companies that make restoration parts for antique and classic cars are already using new materials for the fuel system parts - to do otherwise is increasing the risk of a fuel leak and fire.
The higher they push the ethanol content, the worse it is for old 2-stroke engines as well (which they want killed off, naturally).
Yup, folks who really are average intelligence (at best) are going to regulate energy policy.
I wish that all those who really want this would also have to accept brain surgery from these same flakes.
correct...this from wayyy back in 2001:
“Conserve Gas: Scrap the Ethanol Program”
http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=3578
from the article...”After all, if ethanol were less expensive, would we need a state law mandating it?”
Didn’t they try this back in the 1980s only to have peoples’ engines crap out?
A good question will be if it’s possible to get better mileage out of higher ethanol gasoline by adding even more additives.
That is, the extremely controversial practice of adding up to 3 oz. of pure acetone for every 10 gallons of gasoline blend.
Importantly, this is *not* done to raise the octane level of the fuel, but to break up the surface tension of the gasoline, resulting in better combustion.
Allegedly, more is *not* better, because if you add more than 3 oz per 10 gallons, it will raise the octane rating, and actually *lower* your mileage.
But gasoline has very irregular molecules, which is why it is explosive, by the way, but this molecular homogeneity gives it a much stronger surface tension, making it harder to vaporize with air, and resulting in less complete combustion.
By breaking this high surface tension, some people are claiming to get as much as a third greater efficiency from the same amount of gasoline. Finally, since most fuel systems today are made from synthetic rubber, there is no risk of damage from the acetone.
As I said, it’s a highly controversial practice, and discussing it often turns to bitter acrimony, so I’m just mentioning it, not advocating it. More than anything else, if it *is* true, it would truly annoy the federals, because it would mean they would get even less money in gasoline taxes.
You are right. Ever wonder why ethanol blends never took off.
Higher octane delays ignition. A tractor engine under load won’t tolerate this for very long. Av gas in a car engine is not a good idea.
More mileage? That'd be quite a trick, since it contains fewer btus per unit volume than regular gasoline. The fuel-air ratio is tuned pretty fine by today's computer-managed fuel injection systems (but some aftermarket tuners are exploring mods to add a "lean cruise" mode).
You can certainly build an engine to make more horsepower on the stuff, but higher compression won't increase fuel economy by 30%.
Ach du lieber! Hass der Furher approwed zis Wolksvagen?
Not to mention taking up VAST quantities of FOOD!
>> Higher octane delays ignition. A tractor engine under load won’t tolerate this for very long. Av gas in a car engine is not a good idea. <<
What kinda tractor we talkin’ about, a regular 4cylinder or better, or one of those ol’ Johnny popper 2 cylinder Deers?
I know the 2 cylinder johnny poppers can run on basically anything that is somewhat flammable, my dad told me during the depression some farmers setup their own stills to make alcohol to run them off of, that and they also used kerosene.
“It’ll destroy older gasoline tractor engines. Refiners will have to reduce octane in gasoline to accommodate 15 percent alcohol...”
Good point pulling a plow is a constant load like a truck full of dirt going up hill all day. Low compression and the slow burn is asking for trouble and the valve seat damage from this crap.
So we're talking about an incomplete fuel burn under load? With possible after-burning in the exhaust system?
High octane prevents pre-ignition and damaging ping/knock conditions, and you may have to advance your ignition timing to account for that. Generally, more problems are seen due to octane levels that are too low.
Just curious, because I had an uncle who used nothing but that Amoco 100-octane "white gas" in his tractor, lawnmower (a huge Yazoo) and his '64 Chevy pickup (with the "Stovebolt Six"). None of those engines needed high octane, but it sure didn't hurt them, either. My cousin still has the truck, tractor and mower, thirty years later. He's never had the engines apart - and they all run well.
Can’t we just buy the corn and dump it in a hole someplace? It would be a heck of a lot cheaper, and it wouldn’t screw up everybody’s engines...
Many of the cars on the road today are not equipped to burn high-ethanol blends. So if I am forced to buy alco-gas, I expect a personal Obama bailout.
Hell, let's just switch to 100% ethanol, and then I will have one less store to stop at before I get home.
The ignition would occur after the normal compression stroke, so the blast would either push out the head gasket or punch a hole in the top of the piston.
This will be unusable in many engines, especially older outboards, stationary and off road engines where the maximum is typically E-10. This is nothing but government investing in further failure of the ethanol industry.
If the industry can’t stand on their own when oil was at 150 a barrel, let them fail.
Lawsuits need to be filed. This is that idiot Wesley Clarke’s group.
I read all the various commentaries on this thread, and on previous threads concerning the Ethanol topic, and note how many people know about the costs, the consequences ie; damages to engines, more pollution, etc.
If we know here at FRee Republic all the consequences of using Ethanol, then it’s a good bet the Government, and the Government agencies involved know as well. Like DUH!
Another thought: The fact this abuse of the constituencies continues, and expansion of the abuse is to be considered says Political Organizations that solicit funding from we constituents to fight Big Government abuse aren’t doing the job they promise. We should keep our funding for our fuel tanks.
sounds like an FDR program.
I thought the big push was to eliminate ethanol? E10 gets about 15 percent less mileage than straight gas, how much less efficient will E15 be? This is a blatant attempt by ethanol producers to increase sales. IMO ethanol needs to be stopped yesterday.
You forgot about the impact on the price and availability of food products.
Ethanol causes real problems in Idaho. The fuel gels in the cold weather and jams fuel filters and carbs. It is hygroscopic as well. The water attracted to the ethanol promotes rust in the gas tank.
A long thread of Yamaha VStar 650 owners complained of problems with ethanol gumming up the carbs in that model of motorcycle. The universally recommended fix was the addition of a product called SeaFoam. It scavenges the deposits left by ethanol and helps remove ice/water in the fuel. Some applications include feeding it into the carb throat of the running engine. I put a little SeaFoam into the gas of my Yamaha XT250, TW200 and Suzuki DR650SE when I started up the engines this Spring. The TW200 idle was much improved. The DR650 ran smoothly as well. The XT250 hasn't been out for any serious riding yet.
I certainly don't want to see 15% ethanol. That would just make the problems worse and further degrade mileage and power.
While I agree with you, that point has been contested here on FR. That is why I left it out.
You don't want to drink 100% ethanol. The water+ethanol azeotrope boils off at 95%. To get the last 5% of the water out, the typical technique is to add benzene. That's not good for your liver.
I don't do benzene.
The goal is to get people out of cars and into public transportation and centralized “urban center” skyrises.
Smarth growth = Socialism.
Yeah that’ll work, in CA, the stinking DEMONS and envornazis have prevented the development of mass transportation here for years. And all they talk about is building a high speed train to frisco. Who the hell wants to go there?
100LL avgas is good for valve seats as far as lead goes. It is called “low lead” but has lots of lead compared to everything else. Of course, it doesn’t have other additives that highway gasoline does. I am probably going to run my motorcycles and 2 cycle outboard on a gas-avgas mix this season.
I can't remember the exact octane rating but I do remember it being the most expensive stuff at the Amoco station - and it came out of regular fuel pump, right next to the regular grade (separate pumps back then, remember? And no "mid-grade".)
I always saw white gas in drums with a hand pump attached, in the back of the Amoco (Standard Oil of Indiana)grease rack/garage. It was “unleaded gas” before it was mandated for everyone. I guess the demand wasn’t strong enough where I grew up for the product to be made available at the service island.
It makes no sense to burn corn, the word’s food, in our cars, and ignore the petroleum under our feet.
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