Posted on 05/10/2009 8:21:43 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
In The Bible, Rocks and Time (IVP Academic), geologists and Reformed Christians Davis Young and Ralph Stearley try to convince young-earth creationists (YECs) to abandon their position. First, they argue that the Creation account in Genesis 1 need not be understood as a historical narrative documenting the creation of the universe and its inhabitants in six normal (rotational) days. Second, they argue that the data from geology point unwaveringly to a planet of exceedingly ancient age.
I particularly appreciated Young and Stearley's historical overview of church beliefs on Genesis and Creation. Their careful documentation puts to rest the claims of other old-earth proponents that the church fathers held views compatible with an ancient earth. They likewise present the origins of modern geology well, particularly within the broader historical backdrop of Christian influences on scientific thought.
But BR&T is essentially a negative critique. Theologically, the authors seek to show that Genesis 1 need not be understood as describing six rotational days. But if so, which competing view should we adopt? They clearly dislike the "ruin-reconstruction theory" or "gap theory" (there was a large gap of time between the first and second verses of Genesis), and display reservations about the day-age view (the six days were much longer periods). The authors favor some kind of allegorical view (e.g., the "framework hypothesis"), but are steadfast that they will not make a positive case for any of these.
(Excerpt) Read more at christianitytoday.com ...
This reformed Christian (me, for those of you in Rio Linda) holds to the young age earth. I'm not going to try to argue it; geology isn't my specialty. I just find other arguments trying to explain why the Bible shouldn't be taken literally in Genesis 1 to be linguistic gymnastics.
The key word is NOT “reformed”. I am reformed and I believe the Bible is inerrant in the original autographs, inspired by the Holy Spirit and profitable for reproof, doctrine, training in righteousness. I believe in the virgin birth. I believe in salvation by faith in Christ alone. I believe in the physical death and bodily ressurection of Jesus Christ. He will return in the body and gather those who are alive with Him, those dead in Christ having preceeded.
Reformed Christians do believe in the Bible as God’s Word.
Yahweh = Loki?
[[First, they argue that the Creation account in Genesis 1 need not be understood as a historical narrative documenting the creation of the universe and its inhabitants in six normal (rotational) days.]]
First I will argue that they’re arguemtns are wholly irrelevent to God’s TRUTH- Second I’ll argue that they MUST Deny whole portions of God’s word in order to come to hteir twisted ideology- Third I’ll argue that these peopel are NOT endowed with the truth, nor with intellectual honesty
They are NOT Christians- they only claim to be- They are not ‘reformed Christians’ they are apostates- those hwo have tasted of the truth, but who turn just before accepting the truth, and now are set agaisnt the Church of God-
Don’t be fooled by these folks- many many will claim to be God’s own, but Few will actually be His, and hte bible tells us how to spot these charlatans/apostates- their4 actions reveal their hearts true motives
Shadow Dance
My faith is a guttering candle,
The shadows dance on the wall,
The wind is howling at the door,
And the house beams creak in the hall.
But the words on the page do not waver,
All steady and strong do they stand,
In the quivering light of my candle,
They are firm in the ramparts they’ve manned.
In my life I have stood in the forest,
I have thrown out my leaves in the sun,
I have watched as the winters descended,
To burn with their ice what I’d done.
The cold is the foe that has fought me,
This flame is my warmth as my shield,
With these words as my army in darkness,
Never, while they stand, can I yield.
NicknamedBob . . . . . May 10, 2009
bkmk
And one of my favorite questions, if God didn’t create in six days, why on earth do we have the 4th commandment, remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy?
One thing you may want to think about: did sin and death enter the world when Adam fell? Or was there all sorts of dying going on prior to Adam’s fall?
It would seem to me that assuming thousands of years or what have you prior to Adam’s fall would involve a lot of dying, so if that were the case, death did not enter when Adam fell after all.
The consequences of that change in doctrine I’m sure you can figure for yourself.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day...
...14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Apparently, Mr. Paine got his days mixed up; God created the sun, moon and stars on the fourth day, not the third one. A very unscientific thought is that He created light/Day, separating it from darkness/Night, as a general phenomena in the universe, but that He didn't create self-generating and light-reflecting celestial bodies for this solar system until Day 4 which were then assigned to marking time here. Until we get to ask Him, there will be those who will accept these passages literally (such as I) and those who will accept them as indicating ages.
Nice work.
Oh, I’ve had Him dictate specific words, phrases, sentences to share to counseling clients as well as to groups.
And, by contrast, I’ve had Him give me impressions and inferences to struggle with putting into words that fit His meaning and intent.
I don’t think we have sufficient info to speak to a lot of these
—assertions
—assumptions
—extrapolations
—inferences
We only have SUFFICIENT information
to understand our present world
—our present contingencies
—our present realities
—our present authorities
—our ‘present history’
—our present ‘laws’
—our present and future destinies
—our present requirements
—our present expectancies
—our present duties
—our present assignments
—our present responsibilities
—our present opportunities
. . .
SUFFICIENT for us to establish an ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD BY HIS GRACE, CHRIST’S BLOOD AND SPIRIT
TO BE MAINTAINED, FURTHERED, PERFECTED BY HIM as we cooperate with HIM in that maturing walk . . .
and thereby to end up reigning with Christ eternally.
Love God wholly
Love others as self
Do unto others as you’d have them do unto you.
Therein is Scripture sufficient to land us on Heaven’s shores. All else is details . . . occasionally important details . . . yet, already covered, details.
Much else is chaff—utter chaff.
Pontifical inferences, imaginings, extrapolations on what was before “BEFORE” . . . are mostly vain pontifical exercises in mental masturbation.
Pontifical inferences, imaginings, extrapolations on what meager phrases in early Genesis about early realities precisely were—relative to our time/space dimension, continuum . . . are mostly vain pontifical exercises in mental masturbation.
They do not add to my Salvific understanding and relationship with God.
They do not add anything significant to my loving God unsurpassingly.
They do not add anything to my loving others as myself.
They do not add anything to my doing unto others . . .
They are essentially vain distractions.
It is my conviction that every word of Genesis is true.
It is my belief that every word of Genesis—certainly virtually every word (99.99%?)—will turn out to have been literally true.
Lots of things in Scripture are puzzle pieces that don’t fit within the boundaries of the puzzle AS WE HAVE CONSTRUED THEM.
So?
Therefore?
So what?
Doesn’t shake God in His Heaven, in the least.
By the same token, ascribing to God convoluted mental gymnastic impossibilities such as “Can God create a rock so big He can’t move it?” . . . is an exercise in ascription vanity-to-the-max. God is unbounded, except by His Nature. He’s also not into nonsense.
He’s also not bound by our notions of linear logic.
Yet HE IS TRUTH, THE FOUNDATION OF TRUTH AND ALL TRUTH—ALL TRULY TRUEST TRUTH. And, I believe that eternity will show that HIS TRUTH is BEYOND “reality” as we . . . from that future perspective “knew it.”
From that future perspective, our understanding of truth will not appear convoluted . . . but instead . . . thoroughly clear and simple. God can be paragon complexity. Yet, I think, at His pinnacle of perfection (as though anything about Him was not His best! LOL), He’s simplicity personified.
As Corrie ten Boom used to illustrate with her bit of tapestry . . . on the underside, the chaos of tangled threads and colors is an ugly nonsensical tangle. Yet the top is a beautiful masterpiece.
We truly, TRULY see through a glass darkly, dimly, clumsily.
God can state truths unhampered by our myopic, constricted, extremely finite tunnel vision.
God understands eternal truths unhampered by our finite cogitations and mental capacities and mental boundaries.
Sometimes, I think He enjoys teasing us . . . with tantalizing bits here and there . . . to watch us play with the puzzle pieces . . . and to see WHETHER OR NOT we will UTTERLY TRUST HIM with 100% of ALL—particularly 100% of ourselves . . . as well as we, by His Grace are able . . . or not . . . but also with 100% of reality—past, present and future . . . TRUST . . . by FAITH . . . for without FAITH, it is impossible to please God.
I suppose BereanBrain, that I end up slightly the other side of center . . . feeling that the young earthers have slightly more explaining to do.
Sadly, it seems to me . . . that they do their faith a disservice by too often too easily and too wholesale making that faith appear absurd along side a long list of demonstrable facts.
I’m not at all averse to SOLID BIBLICAL FAITH APPEARING absurd to darkened minds and spirits. That’s the way the cookie crumbles.
However, to render faith unnecessarily to appear as absurd and thereby hinder earnest seekers . . . is to me . . . dangerous foolishness.
PLK, I think your point about . . . the point of Genesis is well made and well taken by discerning, perceptive folks.
Optimist . . . I agree that Deception is the enemy’s realm. I think the enemy’s deception is rooted in a destructive, arrogant heart motive, purpose and goal.
Scripture does speak, however, of God hiding some truths for man to dig out . . . Is gift-wrapping a gift, a puzzle a ‘deception?’ . . . and,
I think satan was deceived in some sense about Calvary.
SeekAndFind; I think it is important to hold Genesis along side other significant Scriptures that may bear on the realities involved.
There is, EVIDENTLY,
at least
a sense
in which sin, death and destruction entered, not only this world, but all creation
at Adam’s fall.
Did that PRECLUDE death prior thereto?
I don’t think we have enough info in terms of the
‘does all death = sin-generated death and destruction?’
issue to be overly vainly pontifical.
The death and destruction Adam is associated with evidently causes ALL CREATION TO GROAN EXPECTANTLY, YEARNING EAGERLY for the manifestation of the sons of God . . . evidently because that will also presage all Creation being delivered of the ravages of sin, death and destruction in at least some key senses, respects.
Yet, there’s a LOT we are guessing vainly at with very little info.
For what purpose?
Oh many a peer of England brews
Livelier liquor than the Muse,
And Malt does more than Milton can
to justify God’s ways to man.
So you’re suggesting I’ll understand better if I drink more.
You’re not the only one who has recommended that.
If Heaven is filled with such as these,
Then Lord, please lift me from my knees,
And set my course for drink and sin,
'Cause if that's Heaven, I don't want in!
One *could* take Housman’s line to mean that poetry *requires* drinking more ;-).
The current theory regarding writing has it beginning as highly stylized hieroglyphs in Sumer. From there it spread to Egypt and China.
Sumerian scribes were the Internet gurus of their day and could draw high wages anywhere.
Once writing got to Egypt (in the form of hieroglyphs and a syllabary) it was "copied" by the Phoenicians and rendered into the basis of another syllabary which became an alphabet. That alphabet spread around the Mediterranean.
In more recent times scribes working for Bill Gates have reintroduced stylized hieroglyphs as well as Chinese style ideographs to what we call writing. Again, the Internet gurus draw high salaries.
In the Old Days, writing was used for worthy purposes like keeping accounting records, but now ...
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.