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How Did Government Get So Involved in Education?
The Case for Separation ^

Posted on 05/11/2009 8:06:40 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan

The United States was founded, formed and grew to international prominence and prestige without compulsory schooling and with virtually no government involvement in schooling. Before the advent of government-controlled schools, literacy was high (91-97% in the North, 81% in the South), private and community schools proliferated, and people cared about education and acted on their desire to learn and have their children learn.

 

Mr. Matthew J. Brouillette, President of the Commonwealth Foundation in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania and former Director of Education Policy for the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, wrote:

 

From the outset of the first settlements in the New World, Americans founded and successfully maintained a de-centralized network of schools up through the 1850s...


 

For the first 150 years of America's settlement and the first 50 to 75 years of the nation's existence, government schooling as it is known today did not exist.

 

Today, few people ask how Americans, without the help of government education, came to tame an unsettled continent and eventually establish the freest nation in history.

 

Mr. Brouillette goes on to say:

 

Early America was arguably the freest civil society that has ever existed. This freedom extended to education, which meant that parents were responsible for, and had complete control of, their children's schooling. There were no accrediting agencies, no regulatory boards, and no teacher certification requirements. Parents could choose whatever kind of school or education they wanted for their children, and no one was forced to pay for education they did not use or approve of.


 

Americans were as innovative about education as they were about everything else.  They started private schools, hired tutors, taught their children at home, taught themselves. As the country grew, private schooling of many varieties grew and complemented the many other options.

 

But there were always the reformers, the people who thought they knew better than everyone else and felt they had the right to force their views on others — by law, if no one would cooperate otherwise.

 

From the PBS web site:

 

Public education today is a product of more than a century of reform and revision [mid 1800s to present]. In each era, visionary individuals have taken the lead and transformed the system to meet their ideals.


 

"Visionary individuals" is an overly nice term for people who consider themselves superior enough that they should have the right to force "their ideals" on all others.

 

One of these visionaries was Horace Mann, a lawyer from Massachusetts. He's often referred to as the father of public education because he was such a fervent reformer, but there were others before and after him.

 

Mr. Mann's hometown of Boston was a city of many private schools in the early and mid 1800s — with attendance reported at 96% by a committee commissioned to study the issue.

 

But high attendance was not the goal of school reformers.  Horace Mann helped establish a board of education in 1837, and by 1852, he had his compulsory schools and state schools from elementary through high school.

 

Power is tempting and many reformers and politicians fell to its lure.  One state after another tightened its grip on American education. Parents who refused to comply sometimes found themselves at the sharp end of state militia bayonets.

 

Once the state grabs power in a particular area, it is only natural that unless people fight back the power will grow and freedom will slowly die. That's where we stand today.

 

Albert Shanker, former president of the American Federation of Teachers, said this:

 

It's time to admit that public education operates like a planned economy, a bureaucratic system in which everybody's role is spelled out in advance and there are few incentives for innovation and productivity. It's no surprise that our school system doesn't improve: it more resembles the communist economy than our own market economy.


 

But Americans have not surrendered their freedom altogether.  27,000 private schools serve over six million students in America. Nearly two million students are home schooled. Tutoring services and learning centers number in the thousands. Community groups, churches and charities offer free tutoring. Parents pool their resources to run summer schools and special classes for their children.

 

Much more could be done if parents and students were not trapped in the web of government schooling. As it is, many parents are actually afraid to step into independence. Some are afraid because schools threaten or intimidate them. Some are afraid of the financial responsibility. Many simply are unaware of all the opportunities and possibilities available.

 

It is our goal to not only explain why government involvement in schooling is detrimental to students, families, society and liberty, but to provide families with ideas and resources to aid their path to independence.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; Government
KEYWORDS: academia; arth; bho44; bhoeducation; democrats; education; governmentschools; lping; nclb; publiceducation; publicschools
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The Short Answer:

The Long Answer:

Many people, possibly even most people, think or suspect that it's important for the government to control schools for a number of reasons:

It is certainly true that many of the founders and promoters of government schooling had these thoughts in mind as they petitioned legislators to pass compulsion laws and to levy taxes to support the new method of education. Horace Mann (often referred to as the father of public education) and others had a dream, and they had no qualms about using force to impose their vision of the future on a largely unsuspecting populace.

What most people don't know is specifically what this new dream entailed. Yes, the reformers wanted all children to be educated — to a point. To the point of being useful as citizens and servants of the government and industry, but not to the point of becoming too independent to control. Here it is in some of their own words.


Our schools have been scientifically designed to prevent over-education from happening. The average American [should be] content with their humble role in life...
- William T. Harris, U.S. Commissioner of Education in the late 1800s


The children who know how to think for themselves spoil the harmony of the collective society which is coming, where everyone would be interdependent.
- John Dewey, philosopher and education reformer of late 1800s-mid 1900s


Every teacher should realize he is a social servant set apart for the maintenance of the proper social order... In this way, the teacher always is the prophet of the true God and the usherer-in of the true Kingdom of God.
- John Dewey, philosopher and education reformer of late 1800s-mid 1900s


Only a system of state-controlled schools can be free to teach whatever the welfare of the State may demand.
- Ellwood P. Cubberley, former superintendent of San Diego schools and Dean of Stanford University School of Education (late 1800s-early 1900s)


'Parent choice' proceeds from the belief that the purpose of education is to provide individual students with an education. In fact, educating the individual is but a means to the true end of education, which is to create a viable social order to which individuals contribute and by which they are sustained.
- Association of California School Administrators


We who are engaged in the sacred cause of education are entitled to look upon all parents as having given hostages to our cause.
- Horace Mann, education reformer, abolitionist


And this is just a small sampling of hundreds of similar sentiments from education founders and reformers. But maybe Horace Mann said it best — he believed his cause was sacred, and for that reason, he felt he had the right to force people to sign on. Not all parents handed their children over willingly, especially in Mr. Mann's home state of Massachusetts, where parents refused to comply with compulsory attendance laws and found themselves at the sharp end of state militia bayonets. Mr. Mann's dream had come true — the state would enforce his plans for the future of all citizens.

But the dream has turned into a nightmare for families and society. Even Mr. Mann might be shocked at the results of his win for compulsory state schooling. When push comes to shove, people, and Americans in particular, don't take to force very well. They don't buy the idea that one man or a small group of men can know what's best for everyone. And they certainly don't believe he has the right to use the police power of the state to force his views on others.

But while people are busy working and living and supporting the state, while they're busy creating a successful economy, legislators and reformers are often busy working against the people. By the time the people realize what's happened, it's too late. The shock of finding themselves at the mercy of the state can take a while to subside, and by then the state has dug in its heels and reversing the encroachment of liberty is not so easy. Because people are so busy with life, they often do not have the time or resources to fight back. That is, until they just can't take anymore.

Thomas Jefferson said it best in the Declaration of independence:

...all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government...


Of course, Thomas Jefferson was specifically referring to the British. But he was also making a broad statement about unjust actions of government. People will put up with it for a long time, but not forever. When it finally reaches the point of being unbearable, people will rise up and take back their liberties. And just as the British fought desperately to keep their control, so will all other forms and levels of government when faced with a loss of power.

In the case of government schooling, the move toward freedom has already begun and is gaining steam.
The parents of over eight million students already send their children to private schools or home school them. Many thousands more spend $25-$80 an hour on tutors to supplement or compensate for their children's public school experience.


But the question still remains, why should the government NOT control education? Here is a handful of good reasons to supplement the ones already listed in our "Short Answer" above (some merely elaborate on the points above). You will probably be able to come up with some more of your own.

There is one more reason that needs to be explored the famous (or infamous) problem of government endorsement of a religion.

Consider these things:

So, what lessons do public school students learn about religion? They learn the following, more often because of omission rather than any lessons they are taught in the classroom.

Non-religious students learn all of the above, though some of it does not apply directly to them. In addition, they learn that:

Religious students spend most of their weekdays, nine or ten months out of the year, seeing their beliefs marginalized or dismissed altogether. Non-religious students may avoid this pitfall, but they are encouraged to consider religion a trivial pursuit, rather than to engage in serious and respectful discussion about the one thing that has affected human history more than any other factor.

The only solution for parents who wish their children to grow up with a strong worldview that reflects their beliefs is to choose a form of schooling that is compatible with their faith. It is in private schools and home schools that all faiths can be discussed openly and freely, that the impact of religion on history and the meaning of life can be freely learned and debated.

Whether you are of a religious persuasion or not, the big questions of life -- questions about meaning and purpose, questions about the role of religion in history -- will be important to you, and you will want those questions addressed in such a way that your children will absorb your values and beliefs. It is one more reason, on top of many others, to choose independence from state schools.

1 posted on 05/11/2009 8:06:40 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Bfltr


2 posted on 05/11/2009 8:07:55 PM PDT by mnehring
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To: metmom; Tired of Taxes; wintertime

This is known to most on FR, but the more people here are exposed to this information for the first time, the better.


3 posted on 05/11/2009 8:09:56 PM PDT by Clintonfatigued (The McCain/Palin ticket was like a Kangaroo, stronger on the bottom than at the top)
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To: bamahead

Libertarian ping!


4 posted on 05/11/2009 8:10:21 PM PDT by Clintonfatigued (The McCain/Palin ticket was like a Kangaroo, stronger on the bottom than at the top)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Government being involved in education is a conflict of interest, in a democracy. Because education shapes voters, which shape government.


5 posted on 05/11/2009 8:11:37 PM PDT by coloradan (The US has become a banana republic, except without the bananas - or the republic.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

FDR created the Dept of Ed under pressure from the communist sympathizers & actual operatives working right under his idiot nose.

As early as the 1930’s the dept of ed’s agenda was to indoctrinate kids into socialism.

Most people don’t realize what their kids are learning, esp how much influence Bill Ayers has in “education”:

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/9741


6 posted on 05/11/2009 8:12:18 PM PDT by jazminerose
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

GOVERNMENT SCHOOLS THEN AND NOW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0lR1KQq2-U


7 posted on 05/11/2009 8:12:43 PM PDT by Dick Bachert (IF WE AREN'T WORKING ON 2010 NOW, WE'RE ALREADY LATE!)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
The plea of necessity, that eternal argument of all conspirators
-- President William H. Harrison

8 posted on 05/11/2009 8:12:47 PM PDT by advance_copy (Stand for life or nothing at all)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan; All

9 posted on 05/11/2009 8:13:38 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

We need seperation of school and state.


10 posted on 05/11/2009 8:14:10 PM PDT by BenLurkin
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

It’s fairly simple. Most likely, the Russians launched Sputnik and common people everywhere all were saying “Something must be done!”. Local school boards heard the complaints of the parents and said “Something must be done!”. County commissioners listened to the complaints of the school boards and said “Something must be done!”. Governors heard the complaints from the counties and all said “Something must be done!”. Senators heard what the governors were saying and said “Something must be done!”. The president heard their complaints, then went back to the senators and said “Something must be done!”


11 posted on 05/11/2009 8:17:16 PM PDT by dr_who
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To: coloradan

I’m for our Constitutional Republic...not a democracy, but I understand your point.


12 posted on 05/11/2009 8:18:15 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

In midstate Pennsylvania all education was through parochial schools until the 1850’s.


13 posted on 05/11/2009 8:19:22 PM PDT by lightman (Adjutorium nostrum (+) in nomine Domini.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/pages/book.htm


14 posted on 05/11/2009 8:20:33 PM PDT by uptoolate (Shhh. If you listen real hard, God is speaking to America.)
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To: Clintonfatigued

“Libertarian ping!”


Libertarian Party Platform:

Throw open the borders completely; only a rare individual (terrorist, disease carrier etc.) can be kept from freedom of movement through “political borders”.

Homosexuals; total freedom in the military, gay marriage, adoption, child custody and everything else.

Abortion; zero restrictions or impediments.

Pornography; no restraint, no restrictions.

Drugs; Meth, Heroin, Crack, anything new that science can come up with, zero restrictions.

Advertising drugs, prostitution, pornography; zero restrictions.

Military Strength; minimal capabilities.


15 posted on 05/11/2009 8:21:00 PM PDT by ansel12 (Romney (guns)"instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people")
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

If tomorrow, we increased public school funding a thousandfold, the students who care little about an education, still wouldn’t get one.

If tomorrow, we cut all public education money, the students desiring an education, would still get one.

No matter what we do, it all begins at home.


16 posted on 05/11/2009 8:21:11 PM PDT by umgud (Look to gov't to solve your everday problems and they'll control your everday life.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
How Did Government Get So Involved in Education?

It is the nature of 'government' to control whatever the commoner will allow. It will seek to control every single aspect of our existence and penetrate every orifice of our body that we tolerate.The more liberty we give up, the more it will take.

17 posted on 05/11/2009 8:27:25 PM PDT by paul51 (11 September 2001 - Never forget (July 4, 2009 see you there))
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Shorter answer.

This has been going on a long time.

Now we see the results.


18 posted on 05/11/2009 8:35:15 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (The Last Boy Scout)
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To: ansel12

Well, we need to look at the diffrent brands...there is classical liberalism and then you have the left libertarians and anarchists types. Abolishing borders or open borders essentially means you are abolishing the nation-state and relegating us to a global village...which to me is quite a radical departure and contrary to our founding as a republic. I certianly oppose radical individualism...which is beinjg thrust upon us by cultural marxism and is simply hedonism. I have many libertarian leanings, but I’m no libertine advocating social anarchy, which is why I’m a conservative.


19 posted on 05/11/2009 8:37:29 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Bookmark


20 posted on 05/11/2009 8:41:00 PM PDT by stentorian conservative (I'm tired of being Johnny B. Goode and I'm gonna start being Johnny Reb.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Great post!


21 posted on 05/11/2009 8:42:08 PM PDT by Pessimist
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To: UCANSEE2

The short answer is that involvement in education is the desired result of all that want control of future generations. This has been going on for decades now and the final results are just starting to be understood. (Only by those that actually care it seems...).

Sometimes I wonder just when the desired results of today actually started. Dumb down the public (through public schools) and then start the revolution (wrong kind)... I’m not actually a conspiracy nut (yet), but really starting to wonder what the hell is going on...


22 posted on 05/11/2009 8:44:34 PM PDT by Deagle
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
You could have answered the question - both the short and long answers with one word.

UNIONS


23 posted on 05/11/2009 8:50:07 PM PDT by Red_Devil 232 (VietVet - USMC All Ready On The Right? All Ready On The Left? All Ready On The Firing Line!)
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To: ansel12
Even Mises opposed "open borders" -

"These considerations are not a plea for opening America and the British Dominions to German, Italian, and Japanese immigrants. Under present conditions America and Australia would simply commit suicide by admitting Nazis, Fascists, and Japanese. They could as well surrender directly to the Fűhrer and to the Mikado. Immigrants from the totalitarian countries are today the vanguard of their armies, a fifth column whose invasion would render all measures of defense useless. America and Australia can preserve their freedom, their civilization, and their economic institutions only by rigidly barring access to the subjects of the dictators."--Mises

A Libertarian Argument against Open borders
24 posted on 05/11/2009 8:51:47 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
You can pretend that libertarians are against open borders, libertarians do a lot of that kind of switch and bait but they are now and always have been for totally open borders.

Here is the wording from the 2004 Party Platform

Libertarian Party Platform 2004:

Immigration
The Issue: We welcome all refugees to our country and condemn the efforts of U.S. officials to create a new "Berlin Wall" which would keep them captive. We condemn the U.S. government's policy of barring those refugees from our country and preventing Americans from assisting their passage to help them escape tyranny or improve their economic prospects.

Transitional Action: We call for the elimination of all restrictions on immigration, the abolition of the Immigration and Naturalization Service and the Border Patrol, and a declaration of full amnesty for all people who have entered the country illegally.

25 posted on 05/11/2009 8:57:53 PM PDT by ansel12 (Romney (guns)"instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people")
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To: Clintonfatigued; Abathar; Abcdefg; Abram; Abundy; akatel; albertp; AlexandriaDuke; ...



Libertarian ping! Click here to get added or here to be removed or post a message here!
(View past Libertarian pings here)
26 posted on 05/11/2009 9:03:13 PM PDT by bamahead (Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master. -- Sallust)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Amazing, that link you posted takes one to a FR thread with five posters on it that evidently did not think to look at the party platform.

Out of those five posters, 3 of them have been banned, including the guy that posted the thread.


27 posted on 05/11/2009 9:04:48 PM PDT by ansel12 (Romney (guns)"instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people")
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

bttt


28 posted on 05/11/2009 9:09:22 PM PDT by The Californian (The door to the room of success swings on the hinges of opposition. Bob Jones, Sr.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Good post ping!


29 posted on 05/11/2009 9:17:41 PM PDT by mick (Central Banker Capitalism is NOT Free Enterprise)
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To: ansel12
"As to why I think libertarians are nuts to favor mass uncontrolled immigration from the third world: I think they are nuts because their enthusiasm on this matter is suicidal to their cause. Their ideological passion is blinding them to a rather obvious fact: that libertarianism is a peculiarly American doctrine, with very little appeal to the huddled masses of the third world. If libertarianism implies mass third-world immigration, then it is self-destroying. Libertarianism is simply not attractive either to illiterate peasants from mercantilist Latin American states, or to East Asians with traditions of imperial-bureaucratic paternalism, or to the products of Middle Eastern Muslim theocracies."--John Derbyshire

Closing the open door

Let me caution you...don't say "I'm pretending" when I made it clear there are different strains of libertarianism and I'm simply stating the fact some libertarians oppose open borders and some are fully in support of open borders like the Cato Institute. I would point out that they did change the Libertarian Platform 2006 on immigration: Ensure immigration requirements include only appropriate documentation, screening for criminal background and threats to public health and national security. Simplifying the immigration process and redeployment of surveillance technology to focus on the borders will encourage the use of regular and monitored entry points, thus preventing trespass and saving lives. End federal requirements that benefits and services be provided to those in the country illegally. Repeal all measures that punish employers for hiring undocumented workers. Repeal all immigration quotas.
30 posted on 05/11/2009 9:23:46 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: ansel12

I am pinging myself to this link for further research and study - but it won’t be because of your “libertarian Party Platform ping”


31 posted on 05/11/2009 9:27:23 PM PDT by yorkie
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
"I would point out that they did change the Libertarian Platform 2006 on immigration: Ensure immigration requirements include only appropriate documentation, screening for criminal background and threats to public health and national security."

All they did was conceal some of their agenda and soften the language so that it would give more wiggle room on forums and when trying to win converts.

After using clear language for so many years this is how they word it in the 2008 platform. Using the smoke screen of being able to stop an individual as an argument that they don't support totally open borders.

Immigration: 3.4 Free Trade and Migration

"We support the removal of governmental impediments to free trade. Political freedom and escape from tyranny demand that individuals not be unreasonably constrained by government in the crossing of political boundaries. Economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human as well as financial capital across national borders. However, we support control over the entry into our country of foreign nationals who pose a threat to security, health or property.

32 posted on 05/11/2009 9:33:01 PM PDT by ansel12 (Romney (guns)"instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people")
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To: yorkie

I didn’t ping anyone, I was quoting his ping.


33 posted on 05/11/2009 9:33:49 PM PDT by ansel12 (Romney (guns)"instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people")
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To: ansel12
I'm really getting tired of this - on this thread about "What happened to abolishing the Department of Education?" ... I had to take issue with GovernmentShrinker trying to blame social conservatism for big government and now you are are trying to create a false dispute on this thread that ignores my views, which if you bothered to ask about...on immigration are close to those of Pat Buchanan or Joseph Farah...and the real split between libertarians...all of which is off the topic of the government and whether "How Did Government Get So Involved in Education?"
34 posted on 05/11/2009 9:36:24 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
I'm really getting tired of this -

Wow, you posted at me, I didn't post to you until your second post to me.

35 posted on 05/11/2009 9:42:53 PM PDT by ansel12 (Romney (guns)"instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people")
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Wow - GREAT post!


36 posted on 05/11/2009 9:47:23 PM PDT by Talisker (When you find a turtle on top of a fence post, you can be damn sure it didn't get there on it's own.)
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To: ansel12
Out of those five posters, 3 of them have been banned, including the guy that posted the thread.

Not only that, but if you add up the first letters of each alternate word, it spells "Paul is dead."

Get lost, straw man.

37 posted on 05/11/2009 9:51:04 PM PDT by Talisker (When you find a turtle on top of a fence post, you can be damn sure it didn't get there on it's own.)
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To: Talisker

Get lost yourself, three out of five posters banned on an irrelevant four year old thread that someone linked me to was worth commenting on.


38 posted on 05/11/2009 9:53:45 PM PDT by ansel12 (Romney (guns)"instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people")
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan
How Did Government Get So Involved in Education?

See this link for a good description of how this happened: The Graves of Academe by Richard Mitchell. This is a book that is more relevant each year that passes. And it's all available for free online.
Why can't our nation
read, write, cipher or THINK?
The Underground Grammarian takes on
the American Educational Establishment.


Praised by critics across the nation, The Graves of Academe is Richard Mitchell's angry and brilliant tour through America's bloated public school system--whose mangled, self-serving language and policies would make Orwell wince. Stamped with vintage Mitchell wit and laced with stinging examples from The Underground Grammarian, The Graves of Academe pinpoints the historic sources of the mind-boggling "educationist" bureaucracy and reveals why today's schools are riddled not only with illiterate students but with illiterate teachers and administrators as well.

"Richard Mitchell has done it again. He has loosed his noble lance of hate, fury and wit against the malignant stupidities that infest the world of education. . . . His book should be read by everyone who detests stupidity and who admires that rare virtue called common sense." --Howard Fast

39 posted on 05/11/2009 9:55:41 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: ansel12; Clintonfatigued
"Libertarian Party Platform:

Throw open the borders completely; only a rare individual (terrorist, disease carrier etc.) can be kept from freedom of movement through “political borders”.

Homosexuals; total freedom in the military, gay marriage, adoption, child custody and everything else.

Abortion; zero restrictions or impediments.

Pornography; no restraint, no restrictions.

Drugs; Meth, Heroin, Crack, anything new that science can come up with, zero restrictions.

Advertising drugs, prostitution, pornography; zero restrictions.

Military Strength; minimal capabilities."

Not one of the above was posted in #4's post.

40 posted on 05/11/2009 10:03:34 PM PDT by yorkie
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To: ansel12
...on an irrelevant four year old thread...

1. YOUR comment was topically irrelevent to THIS thread.

2. Neither education nor immigration are even remotely irrelevent TODAY, though the former is the ONLY relevent topic of THIS thread.

41 posted on 05/11/2009 10:03:53 PM PDT by Talisker (When you find a turtle on top of a fence post, you can be damn sure it didn't get there on it's own.)
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To: ansel12
Let me clarify...Conservatism has variants...Libertarianism has variants as well...all I wanted to do was show you that there wasn't a monolithic libertarian position for open borders. You said I was "pretending" when I wasn't trying to do no such thing...and I'm completely opposed to "open borders" and unrestricted immigration. I'm tired of being mired in this conservative versus libertarian conflict....the larger issue of the size and scope of government...there is a lot of overlap. I remember this article by Ann Coulter on her problem with the Connecticut Libertarian Party.

* George Washington, in a letter to John Adams, stated that immigrants should be absorbed into American life so that "by an intermixture with our people, they, or their descendants, get assimilated to our customs, measures, laws: in a word soon become one people."

* In a 1790 speech to Congress on the naturalization of immigrants, James Madison stated that America should welcome the immigrant who could assimilate, but exclude the immigrant who could not readily "incorporate himself into our society."

* In 1802, Alexander Hamilton wrote: "The safety of a republic depends essentially on the energy of a common national sentiment; on a uniformity of principles and habits; on the exemption of the citizens from foreign bias and prejudice; and on that love of country which will almost invariably be found to be closely connected with birth, education and family."

* Hamilton further warned that "The United States have already felt the evils of incorporating a large number of foreigners into their national mass; by promoting in different classes different predilections in favor of particular foreign nations, and antipathies against others, it has served very much to divide the community and to distract our councils. It has been often likely to compromise the interests of our own country in favor of another.

"The permanent effect of such a policy will be, that in times of great public danger there will be always a numerous body of men, of whom there may be just grounds of distrust; the suspicion alone will weaken the strength of the nation, but their force may be actually employed in assisting an invader."

* The survival of the American republic, Hamilton maintained, depends upon "the preservation of a national spirit and a national character." "To admit foreigners indiscriminately to the rights of citizens the moment they put foot in our country would be nothing less than to admit the Grecian horse into the citadel of our liberty and sovereignty."

We are not a nation of immigrants. We are first and foremost a nation of laws. The U.S. Constitution does not say that the paramount duty of government is to "celebrate diversity" or to "embrace multiculturalism" or to give "every willing worker" in the world a job. The Preamble to the U.S. Constitution says the Constitution was established "to provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty."

As our Founding Fathers recognized, fulfilling these fundamental duties is impossible without an orderly immigration and entrance system that discriminates in favor of those willing, as George Washington put it, to "get assimilated to our customs, measures [and] laws."

A NATION OF LAWS by Michelle Malkin

42 posted on 05/11/2009 10:04:48 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: Talisker

I posted to a poster that did a Libertarian Party ping, pay attention.

I didn’t single out the immigration thing, someone else did, pay attention.


43 posted on 05/11/2009 10:06:30 PM PDT by ansel12 (Romney (guns)"instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people")
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To: Clintonfatigued

everyone needs to read The Underground History of American Education by John Taylor Gatto and A Thomas Jefferson Education by Oliver Van DeMille...


44 posted on 05/11/2009 10:09:40 PM PDT by latina4dubya ( self-proclaimed tequila snob)
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To: ansel12

You posted it to me - and I am telling you - pay attention to what you post, and what posts you respond to.

Pay attention - and be courteous - you may learn something. (Or, you may chose not to - your decision.)


45 posted on 05/11/2009 10:10:31 PM PDT by yorkie
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To: coloradan
Government being involved in education is a conflict of interest, in a democracy. Because education shapes voters, which shape government.

I don't know if I can agree with that statement.

Democracy is the precursors to Socialism, which leads then to communism.

So shaping voters seems like a standard goal of democracies.

Constitutionally Republics, like the United States, function in a totally different manner.

The 10th Amendment specifically gives the Federal Government no say in education, it belongs to the state.

46 posted on 05/11/2009 10:13:21 PM PDT by Syncro
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

We weren’t filled up back then, my interest is in revealing to people what the little libertarian party of less than 226,000 registrants really represents since most people don’t know.

People need to learn what the leftist part of the little libertarian party is, meaning they need to see the platform, because libertarians will BS them until the cows come home.


47 posted on 05/11/2009 10:13:50 PM PDT by ansel12 (Romney (guns)"instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people")
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To: ansel12

Well, since you keep referencing me...I’ll respond since I’m that poster...there was a ‘libertarian ping’ by a poster on this thread as a opposed to a ‘libertarian “party” ping’ and you posted about there platform, which included immigration.


48 posted on 05/11/2009 10:17:01 PM PDT by Conservative Coulter Fan (I am defiantly proud of being part of the Religious Right in America.)
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To: yorkie

You posted it to me - and I am telling you - pay attention to what you post, and what posts you respond to.

Pay attention - and be courteous - you may learn something. (Or, you may chose not to - your decision.)


Where did I post to you before 33?


49 posted on 05/11/2009 10:17:55 PM PDT by ansel12 (Romney (guns)"instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people")
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To: Conservative Coulter Fan

Yeah, you jumped in and starting going off about immigration and since you were posting to me I started responding after the second time you pinged me.


50 posted on 05/11/2009 10:19:22 PM PDT by ansel12 (Romney (guns)"instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people")
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