Skip to comments.Whaddya mean, 'America is not a Christian nation'?
Posted on 05/17/2009 3:59:16 AM PDT by Man50D
While Barack Obama has repeatedly claimed that the U.S. is "no longer a Christian nation," several members of Congress have taken a stand to boldly disagree.
A bipartisan group of 25 members of the House of Representatives earlier this month submitted H.Res. 397, which calls on Congress to affirm "the rich spiritual and religious history of our nation's founding and subsequent history" and to designate the first week of May as America's Spiritual Heritage Week for "the appreciation of and education on America's history of religious faith."
Rep. Randy Forbes, R-Va., specifically challenged the president's claims that America is not a Christian nation in a news conference announcing the bill immediately following last week's National Day of Prayer observance.
"The overwhelming evidence suggests that this nation was born and birthed with Judeo-Christian principles," Forbes told reporters, "and I would challenge anybody to tell me that point in time when we ceased to be so, because it doesn't exist."
(Excerpt) Read more at worldnetdaily.com ...
Nov 4th 2008.
Forbes told reporters, “and I would challenge anybody to tell me that point in time when we ceased to be so, because it doesn’t exist.”
And you said — Nov 4th 2008.
But, I would say that it was from the following Supreme Court decisions and the change that our country made “officially”...
“The Regent’s School Prayer” (Engel v. Vitale, 1962)
“School Prayer” (Murray v. Curlett, 1963)
“School Prayer & Bible Reading” (Abington Township School District v. Schempp, 1963)
Roe v. Wade in 1973
We are *not* a Christian nation and have not been for quite a long time, and it was long, long before Obama ever got here. Obama is the *result* of us not being a Christian nation and *not* the cause of it.
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth. In Witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names
Does anyone disagree & think I'm nuts for thinking so?
After all, who could they have been referring to when they said "Our Lord"....& from whose birth dats are our years numbered by, pray tell???
What have we wrought?
That was “then” — and this is “now”.
We haven’t been a Christian nation for quite a long time now...
If only we could see an honest SCOTUS seated which would go back and rip out all the unconstitutional "Constitutional" decisions made by past "enemies domestic."
The Constitution is usually pretty explicit, they don't need to be "interpreting" it, but rather seeking proper and logical application.
While I do believe that the Founding Fathers (in general) believed in the Lordship of Jesus, the Messiah of Israel — at the same time, I do think you’re “nuts for thinking so” (using your phrase) — from this particular example. Even an atheist would use that phrase at that time... LOL...
It was *merely* — a “conventional way of writing” and nothing more (although, in “general” it did develop from recognition of the lordship of Christ, it was *not used* by everyone as a recognition of that lordship).
Pick some better examples...
For all you'll ever need or want to know about
Wright's "Black Liberation Theology",
see my FR Home page:
"Their founding document [the Weather Underground's] called for the establishment of a "white fighting force" to be allied with the "Black Liberation Movement" and other "anti-colonial" movements to achieve "the destruction of US imperialism and the achievement of a classless world: world communism."..."-Berger, Dan (2006). Outlaws of America: The Weather Underground and the Politics of Solidarity. AK Press, 95.
Outlaws of America: The Weather Underground and the Politics of Solidarity (Paperback) by Dan Berger
From the New York Times, August 24, 2003
"they [the Weather Underground] employed revolutionary jargon, advocated armed struggle and black liberation and began bombing buildings, taking responsibility for at least 20 attacks. Estimates of their number ranged at times from several dozen to several hundred."
Article: Quieter Lives for 60's Militants, but Intensity of Beliefs Hasn't Faded
The bottom line *result* in society — is — prayer and Bible reading taken out of school. Unborn babies killed by the millions since then.
That’s ample proof of the nature of our society. That’s all the proof you need.
If people didn’t agree with those decisions, it simply wouldn’t happen.
Hence, the United States is *not a Christian nation* — but merely a nation with “Christians in it”...
Obama goes today to Notre dame to prove Notre dame is no longer a Christian school.
The bottom line thing to recognize, very simply — is that if the U.S. were a Christian nation — Obama would not have been elected.
Obama (i.e., that he’s “here” and has been elected) is ample proof of the situation which changed “officially” (as I documented in post #3, with those “decisions” and the results from them).
Obama is simply the “outcome” of what happened back then and the “outcome” of the U.S. not being a Christian nation.
Well, the visit of Obama may confirm that, but that also happened long before Obama, too... :-)
A current poll has Americans self-identitying as 51% pro-life.
If people didnt agree with those decisions, it simply wouldnt happen.
The tyranny of the minority. Voters don't think deeply and equate the consequences of their choices. It's usually a popularity contest rather than a true battle of ideology...not to mention voter fraud.
I think Americans looked pretty Christian right after the 9/11 attack. It will happen again.
Although I’m Swedish, I love America.
However, I don’t love the US because everything in America is better than in my my country. Actually, Sweden outperforms America in many other fields than ice hockey, car saftey, IT, cheap furniture and gorgeous blonds.
Because of our undeniable competence in the area of business, technology and our Lutheran work ethics, Sweden today has a much stronger economy than the US and (from what I can tell) the average Swedish family enjoys a better standard of living than its American counterpart.
Call us Socialits if you like, at least we’re not the nation that recently has elected a Socialist government, neither do we tax our companies to death (- btw, one reason I love this forum is that most members here can see through the tranquillizing fairytales of Obama, so don’t take it too personally!).
Islam is a problem in Sweden. I won’t deny this. However, Sweden is actually more of a Christian nation than the US is!
ONLY 78.4% of all Americans consider themselves to be Christians.
In Sweden around 75% of the population belongs to the biggest Lutheran church on Earth, Church of Sweden. The rest of the population are Catholics, belong to different “free churches” and a small percentage of our population Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and Jews.
Many Christians of America view us Swedes as Socialist zombies and robots. Yes, few of us go to church every week and sing “hallelujah”. Our church attendence is a catastophe. But does that mean Jesus Christs would deem Sweden of today Hell on Earth? I think not.
When I was a child I once asked my (Lutheran) grandmother the question “Where does one find God?”. Her answer was this: “God is found in the heart of every good person”.
State Constitution Preambles:
Alabama 1901, Preamble
We the people of the State of Alabama , invoking the favor and guidance of
Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution..
Alaska 1956, Preamble We, the people of Alaska , grateful to God and to
those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land.
Arizona 1911, Preamble We, the people of the State of Arizona , grateful to
Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution....
Arkansas 1874, Preamble We, the people of the State of Arkansas , grateful
to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...
California 1879, Preamble We, the People of the State of California ,
grateful to Almighty God for our freedom...
Colorado 1876, Preamble We, the people of Colorado , with profound reverence
for the Supreme Ruler of Universe...
Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with
gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy.
Delaware 1897, Preamble Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the
rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of
Florida 1885, Preamble We, the people of the State of Florida , grateful to
Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, establish this Constitution....
Georgia 1777, Preamble We, the people of Georgia , relying upon protection
and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...
Hawaii 1959, Preamble We , the people of Hawaii , Grateful for Divine
Guidance ... Establish this Constitution.
Idaho 1889, Preamble We, the people of the State of Idaho , grateful to
Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings.
Illinois 1870, Preamble We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to
Almighty God for the civil , political and religious liberty which He hath
so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our
Indiana 1851, Preamble We, the People of the State of Indiana , grateful to
Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to choose our form of
Iowa 1857, Preamble We, the People of the St ate of Iowa , grateful to the
Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence
on Him for a continuation of these blessings, establish this Constitution.
Kansas 1859, Preamble We, the people of Kansas , grateful to Almighty God
for our civil and religious privileges establish this Constitution.
Kentucky 1891, Preamble.. We, the people of the Commonwealth are grateful to
Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties..
Louisiana 1921, Preamble We, the people of the State of Louisiana , grateful
to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy.
Maine 1820, Preamble We the People of Maine acknowledging with grateful
hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us
an opportunity .. And imploring His aid and direction.
Maryland 1776, Preamble We, the people of the state of Maryland , grateful
to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty...
Massachusetts 1780, Preamble We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging
with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe
In the course of His Providence, an opportunity and devoutly imploring His
Michigan 1908, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Michigan ,
grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom, establish this
Minnesota, 1857, Preamble We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful
to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its
Mississippi 1890, Preamble We, the people of Mississippi in convention
assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.
Missouri 1845, Preamble We, the people of Missouri , with profound reverence
for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness .
Establish this Constitution...
Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana , grateful to Almighty God
for the blessings of liberty establish this Constitution ..
Nebraska 1875, Preamble We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our
freedom . Establish this Constitution.
Nevada 1864, Preamble We the people of the State of Nevada , grateful to
Almighty God for our freedom, establish this Constitution...
New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V Every individual has a natural
and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own
New Jersey 1844, Preamble We, the people of the State of New Jersey,
grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so
long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.
New Mexico 1911, Preamble We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty
God for the blessings of liberty..
New York 1846, Preamble We, the people of the State of New York , grateful
to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings.
North Carolina 1868, Preamble We the people of the State of North Carolina,
grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil,
political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon
Him for the continuance of those...
North Dakota 1889, Preamble We , the people of North Dakota , grateful to
Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...
Ohio 1852, Preamble We the people of the state of Ohio , grateful to
Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our
Oklahoma 1907, Preamble Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to
secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty, establish this
Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I Section 2. All men shall be secure in
the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of
Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to
Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly
invoking His guidance....
Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island
grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath
so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing....
South Carolina , 1778, Preamble We, the people of he State of South Carolina
grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution.
South Dakota 1889, Preamble We, the people of South Dakota , grateful to
Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties ...
Tennessee 1796, Art. XI..III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible
right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience...
Texas 1845, Preamble We the People of the Republic of Texas , acknowledging,
with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God.
Utah 1896, Preamble Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we
establish this Constitution.
Vermont 1777, Preamble Whereas all government ought to enable the
individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other
blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man ..
Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI Religion, or the Duty which we owe our
Creator can be directed only by Reason and that it is the mutual duty of all
to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other
Washington 1889, Preamble We the People of the State of Washington, grateful
to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this
West Virginia 1872, Preamble Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the
blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West
Virginia reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God ....
Wisconsin 1848, Preamble We, the people of Wisconsin , grateful to Almighty
God for our freedom, domestic tranquility...
Wyoming 1890, Preamble We, the people of the State of Wyoming , grateful to
God for our civil, political, and religious liberties, establish this
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington , DC 20500
I have had it with you and your administration, sir. Your conduct on your recent trip overseas has convinced me that you are not an adequate representative of the United States of America collectively or of me personally.
You are so obsessed with appeasing the Europeans and the Muslim world that you have abdicated the responsibilities of the President of the United States of America. You are responsible to the citizens of the United States. You are not responsible to the peoples of any other country on earth.
I personally resent that you go around the world apologizing for the United States telling Europeans that we are arrogant and do not care about their status in the world. Sir, what do you think the First World War and the Second World War were all about if not the consideration of the peoples of Europe? Are you brain dead? What do you think the Marshall Plan was all about? Do you not understand or know the history of the 20th century?
Where do you get off telling a Muslim country that the United States does not consider itself a Christian country? Have you not read the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution of the United States? This country was founded on Judeo-Christian ethics and the principles governing this country, at least until you came along, come directly from this heritage. Do you not understand this?
Your bowing to the king of Saudi Arabia is an affront to all Americans. Our President does not bow down to anyone, let alone the king of Saudi Arabia. You didn't show Great Britain, our best and one of our oldest allies, the respect they deserve yet you bow down to the king of Saudi Arabia. How dare you, sir! How dare you!
You can't find the time to visit the graves of our greatest generation because you don't want to offend the Germans but make time to visit a mosque in Turkey. You offended our dead and every veteran when you give the Germans more respect than the people who saved the German people from themselves. What's the matter with you? I am convinced that you and the members of your administration have the historical and intellectual depth of a mud puddle and should be ashamed of yourselves, all of you.
You are so self-righteously offended by the big bankers and the American automobile manufacturers yet do nothing about the real thieves in this situation, Mr. Dodd, Mr. Frank, Franklin Raines, Jamie Gorelic,the Fannie Mae bonuses, and the Freddie Mac bonuses. What do you intend to do about them? Anything? I seriously doubt it.
What about the U.S. House members passing out $9.1 million in bonuses to their staff members on top of the $2.5 million in automatic pay raises that lawmakers gave themselves? I understand the average House aide got a 17% bonus. I took a 5% cut in my pay to save jobs with my employer. You haven't said anything about that. Who authorized that? I surely didn't!
Executives at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac will be receiving $210 million in bonuses over an eighteen-month period, that's $45 million more than the AIG bonuses.. In fact, Fannie and Freddie executives have already been awarded $51 million a not a bad take. Who authorized that and why haven't you expressed your outrage at this group who are largely responsible for the economic mess we have right now.
I resent that you take me and my fellow citizens as brain-dead and not caring about what you idiots do. We are watching what you are doing and we are getting increasingly fed up with all of you. I also want you to know that I personally find just about everything you do and say to be offensive to every one of my sensibilities. I promise you that I will work tirelessly to see that you do not get a chance to spend two terms destroying my beautiful country.
Every real American
P..S. I rarely ask that emails be 'passed around'.............PLEASE SEND THIS TO YOUR EMAIL LIST......it's past time for all Americans to wake up!
Ms Kathleen Lyday
Fourth Grade Teacher
Grandview Elementary School
11470 Hwy. C
Hillsboro, MO 63050
You said — Prayer and the bible cannot be either forced nor prohibited by the schools. I don’t care what the USSC says.
Well, sorry to tell you this, but it happened. You may not have seen it happen, but I did. I didn’t know why at the time, but I found out later on, as I grew up. At the time, we had assignments in the Bible, memorization of certain things, reciting it in class, prayer in the classroom, and so on. It abruptly stopped. And it hasn’t started up again since then.
As I said before, the U.S. is *not* a Christian nation, but it does have “Christians in the nation”. There is a difference in those two things.
“As a nation” the U.S. has already made it’s pronouncements and rulings and subsequent laws and regulations from those rulings. And, there are “Christians in the nation” but that doesn’t “make the nation Christian”.
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You then said — A current poll has Americans self-identitying as 51% pro-life.
Well, I’ve been around long enough, and as a Christian, to know that “pro-life” is not a condition for salvation (per the Gospel and the Scriptures, as the Apostle Paul tells us), but that being a true Christian does lead to being pro-life.
So, very simply that means that there are many who are pro-life who are not Christian.
I can name three groups who have worked for “conservative values” in politics and who are *not Christian* in any way, shape or form (by the definition of Christians and their fundamental theology, as to what are core Christian teachings).
Those three groups, who have and who do work for conservative values are Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Moonies.
Two of those groups are the *largest two* — cult groups — in the United States — Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses. The third one, the Moonies, have sunk hundreds of millions of dollars into “conservative politics” over the years, usually working very quietly “behind the scenes” sinking their money into these same conservative politics. I’ve seen that directly myself.
When you get right down to it. you probably have about 10-20% of the population of the United States as “Christian”. That doesn’t make out too well for being a “Christian nation” — and that’s precisely why the U.S. “officially” went against being a Christian nation, when I said it did.
And Obama’s election can be looked at as the “judgment of God” upon this nation for turning away from being a Christian nation (which it appeared to have been, at one time; but it is no longer so...).
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And lastly you said — I think Americans looked pretty Christian right after the 9/11 attack. It will happen again.
No, they looked like scared rabbits. You know..., “No atheists in foxholes” [until you get out of the foxhole... that is... LOL...]
If they were “Christian” they would still be in church and Obama couldn’t have won. It would have been “overwhelming” against Obama, in that case.
You had nothing but “deer in the headlights” at that time... LOL...
You’re living in a dream-world, in your own mind, if you think that the United States is a Christian nation. Even a quote attributed (many times) to Billy Graham makes the case quite well (said a long while back).... (paraphrased somewhat) — that “God would owe Sodom and Gomorrah an apology if He didn’t judge the United States”....
You don’t “judge” a nation that *is* a “Christian Nation”....
Too many people have their heads in the sand, or are caught in a time-warp, back in the 18th Century.... :-)
We are an untended vineyard - still growing some grapes, rapidly being overtaken by the wild.
Where did the fundamental moral principles that our founders used originate? The answer is ‘The Bible’.
Jefferson spent over half of the Declaration of Independance making arguments to bible believers that we had the RIGHT to throw off the rightful government.
Religious freedom was guaranteed in the First Amendement, not to keep us FROM religion, but to keep religion flourishing.
Like I said, the school cannot establish a religion, require religious training (except secular humanism of course) The schools cannot prohibit the students from practicing their religion either.
You seem to think the government is the nation.
You said — You seem to think the government is the nation.
The government is the official representation of the people, by means of the people’s participation in the governmental process and agreement with it (again per the process).
And, it goes back — once again — to the fact that the United States is not a Christian nation — but — there are people “in the nation” who are Christian.
There is a difference between the two.
In addition, the Christians don’t even make up a majority of the people in the first place, but as God has said, He always has a *remnant* and we do have a *remnant* here in the United States — even if the United States is not a Christian nation.
You said — Jefferson spent over half of the Declaration of Independance making arguments to bible believers that we had the RIGHT to throw off the rightful government.
And likewise, the people of our day figured that they had a right to officially “throw out” God out of the country and out of politics and out of the legal system and out of the schools and out of the government and all its process — and the “people” (by way of our government that was voted in by the people) are now working on getting all things of “God” — out of — the public sphere and discourse.
Only the most misguided would ever call the United States a Christian nation (or a fool, that is...). But of course, God says a fool has said in his heart that there is no God — which does appear to be what the people of this country are saying (for the majority, anyway...).
I don't think so.
Voter fraud at every level in the cities. Scumholes of the earth.
You said — Voter fraud at every level in the cities. Scumholes of the earth.
Whatever fraud is there, it’s there as a result of the U.S. being a secular nation — and not a Christian Nation...
The U.S. is a secular nation with Christians in it.
The U.S. is a secular nation with Jews in it.
The U.S. is a secular nation with Mormons in it (a cult group)
The U.S. is a secular nation with Jehovah’s Witnesses in it (another cult group).
The U.S. is a secular nation with Moonies in it (yet another cult group).
The U.S. is a secular nation with Muslims in it (and yet again a major cult group).
The U.S. is a secular nation with atheists in it (an idiotic group).
The U.S. is a secular nation with pagans in it (the “who cares” and “be happy” group).
[I could go on, but I’ll stop there... LOL...]
Oh... one more group...
The U.S. is a secular nation with “We’re a Christian Nation” group (part of the “ostrich” family...)
Makes perfect sense to me.
Sadly, Obama is right on this one thing.....we are no longer majority Christian!!! People may SAY they are Christian, but the DON’T LIVE the Christian life.
That’s a good example for what we *once* were.
It’s too bad it’s not true today or never could be written today...
Well..., one of the remnant who sees the picture clearly... :-)
Mine sure the hell is.
“in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven”
I have heard it said this was common usage at that time and doesn’t mean anything. I argued otherwise!
It’s like the phrase “God bless you’ or “Bless you” when sneezing.
A legend holds that it was believed that the heart stops when you sneeze, and the phrase “bless you” is meant to ensure the return of life or to encourage your heart to continue beating.
One explanation holds that the custom originally began as an actual blessing. Gregory I became Pope in 590 as an outbreak of the bubonic plague was reaching Rome. In hopes of fighting off the disease, he ordered unending prayer and parades of chanters through the streets. At the time, sneezing was thought to be an early symptom of the plague. The blessing (”God bless you!”) became a common effort to halt the disease.
A variant of the Pope Gregory I story places it with Pope Gregory VII, then tells the common (though untrue) story of “Ring Around the Rosey” being connected to the same plague.
Another version says that people used to believe that your soul can be thrown from your body when you sneeze, that sneezing otherwise opened your body to invasion by the Devil or evil spirits, or that sneezing was your body’s effort to force out an invading evil spirit. Thus, “bless you” or “God bless you” is used as a sort of shield against evil.
I doubt that anyone thinks that demons are being forced out and that you need God’s blessing to keep them from coming back in again, or any of the other explanations.
However it started — it simply turns out to be a “convention” that is used today, that has no bearing on “God” or evil spirits or the plague or anything like that.
It’s the same with “in the year of our Lord”... in its usage, no matter “how it started”...
And your point is?
You said — And your point is?
“After all, who could they have been referring to when they said “Our Lord”....& from whose birth dats are our years numbered by, pray tell???”
Point is — same type of example...