Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The end of Western hegemony ("..Europeans may well find ourselves missing..Bush before too long.")
The UK Guardian via The News.com ^ | Monday 25 May 2009 16.00 BST | Paddy Ashdown Guardian.co.UK

Posted on 05/25/2009 9:10:30 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

Edited on 05/26/2009 6:13:22 AM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]

We are on the edge of one of those periods of history when the gimbals on which the established order is mounted shift and a new world order begins to emerge. And these are, almost always, the most frightening and turbulent of times.


(Excerpt) Read more at thenews.com.pk ...


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: bho44; bush; china; economy; europeanunion; geopolitics; obama; wot
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-84 next last
What say you?
1 posted on 05/25/2009 9:10:30 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet

They were saying the same thing 30 years ago, during the twilight of the Carter Administration


2 posted on 05/25/2009 9:11:46 PM PDT by jmcenanly
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet

I still miss Ronald Reagan


3 posted on 05/25/2009 9:15:21 PM PDT by SevenofNine ("We are Freepers, all your media belong to us, resistence is futile")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet

There is a lot of bluster in that speech, the fact is the EU seems to matter very little in the global scheme of things.


4 posted on 05/25/2009 9:19:39 PM PDT by GeronL (http://libertyfic.proboards.com for the love of something)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: 2ndDivisionVet

Islamabad News...

Well the U.S. may not be as powerful as it was, and I’m not at all convinced of that yet, but the muzzi world sure isn’t going anywhere soon as a result.

Let us know when there’s a car, an aircraft, or just about anything else advanced in your nations other than da bomb, you losers.


6 posted on 05/25/2009 9:25:29 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Obama is mentally a child of ten. Just remember that when he makes statements and issues policy.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet

I don’t know why, because I don’t really see it in this article, but the rise of the 10 kingdoms in Revelation popped into my mind. Maybe something to do with the phrase “multi-polar world”.


7 posted on 05/25/2009 9:26:36 PM PDT by mrsmel (Put the Gitmo terrorists near Capitol Hill.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet

Well, at least as far as the Germans go, I think events will eventually lead to a teutonic shift.

Ba-dump chhhhhh!


8 posted on 05/25/2009 9:27:43 PM PDT by coloradan (The US has become a banana republic, except without the bananas - or the republic.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DoughtyOne

The last thing of note they did was invent zero, about a thousand years ago or so. Nothing since then, however.


9 posted on 05/25/2009 9:28:51 PM PDT by coloradan (The US has become a banana republic, except without the bananas - or the republic.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet
Too many inconsistencies. The author asserts (correctly) that the U.S. will remain the world's main power, but then follows that up with a weird statement such as this:

The US security guarantee ... no longer exists

What? NATO has been disbanded? I see no moves from any politically relevant leader in that direction.

10 posted on 05/25/2009 9:30:12 PM PDT by eclecticEel (I don't want Obama to fail, I want him to fail quickly.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: coloradan

And they were so proud, they’ve been stuck on zero ever since. LOL

So is the left in the U.S. for that matter.


11 posted on 05/25/2009 9:33:36 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Obama is mentally a child of ten. Just remember that when he makes statements and issues policy.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet
Obamas 4 or 8 years will cost us a hell of a lot.

How we respond to it in elections and even preserving the union, will be amazingly important for the future of this world.

12 posted on 05/25/2009 9:36:16 PM PDT by Kakaze (Exterminate Islamofacism and apologize for nothing.....except not doing it sooner!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: coloradan

The last thing of note they did was invent zero, about a thousand years ago or so. Nothing since then, however.
________________________________

The Litter Box?

Probably not even that.


13 posted on 05/25/2009 9:36:57 PM PDT by unkus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: eclecticEel
What? NATO has been disbanded? I see no moves from any politically relevant leader in that direction.

perhaps it should be.

14 posted on 05/25/2009 9:39:55 PM PDT by GreyMountainReagan (Liberals do not view the book 1984 as a warning but as a textbook.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet

Hard to tell what’s going to happen, but it looks like the U.S. will be in decline the next 4 years while China gets stronger. But... I believe the U.S.A. will bounce back due to a backlash against Obama and liberals. And that China will will stumble and falter badly with their own problems. China was and still is a paper tiger. As for Europe, there’s no saving them.


15 posted on 05/25/2009 9:45:26 PM PDT by roadcat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: GeronL
"...the EU seems to matter very little in the global scheme of things."

True. Though, for 1,800 out of 2100 years, Europe and the U.K. were the major militaries and world-shaping forces. It can change pretty quickly nowadays, with our ever-more-intertwined economies, and everything happening globally at the speed of "bytes."

The Antichrist could easily come from Eastern Europe. Or Africa.

;-/

16 posted on 05/25/2009 9:45:29 PM PDT by Gargantua ("If not us, when? If not now, ...where....?")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet
These prophets of doom seem to forget that there was never a superpower like the US before, and just because the US's power is decreasing on the world stage--temporarily or not--another one of equal power or scale won't step in just because. There is every possibility that other powers WILL become "number one" but that will more likely be by default--they won't surpass the US, but the US may decline.

The US has a unique location, resources (natural and otherwise), and form of government, all of which mean a decline of the US is potential, and potentially temporary. In the meantime, who's going to step into the #1 spot? Of course the French attitude will have all of our former trading and political partners stepping up and doing business with whomever takes the #1 spot, but many of our traditional allies and trading partners aren't going anywhere--Canada, UK, Australia, Japan, others.

The US may slip, but it won't be replaced by another, equal power. It will likely be replaced in that top spot by someone the rest of the world doesn't want there.

17 posted on 05/25/2009 9:46:45 PM PDT by Darkwolf377
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Gargantua

I don’t think the EuroSplat is ever going to go back to being important in our lifetimes.


18 posted on 05/25/2009 9:47:19 PM PDT by GeronL (http://libertyfic.proboards.com for the love of something)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: coloradan
The last thing of note they did was invent zero, about a thousand years ago or so. Nothing since then, however.

They didn't even event that. They borrowed if from the Hindus.

19 posted on 05/25/2009 9:47:42 PM PDT by stripes1776 ("That if gold rust, what shall iron do?" --Chaucer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: coloradan; DoughtyOne
The last thing of note they did was invent zero, about a thousand years ago or so

Not even that.

The Zero was invented by the Indians and carried to the Middle East by traders, from where it went to Europe.

20 posted on 05/25/2009 9:59:46 PM PDT by IndianChief
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: jmcenanly

The Islamic World has been the nation equivalent of Fail since the 1600’s.


21 posted on 05/25/2009 10:10:04 PM PDT by John Will
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Darkwolf377

Even when they bluff that they can’t wait for the US to be replaced by, for instance, China. If they truly believed that the US was an oppressive imperialist nation, how could they even say the words to hope that China, of all nations, overtakes us? But I have seen Euro posters on Euro newspaper sites claim to want just that. It’s hard to believe that they really mean it and aren’t just displaying their reflexive anti-Americanism.


22 posted on 05/25/2009 10:18:39 PM PDT by mrsmel (Put the Gitmo terrorists near Capitol Hill.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: coloradan

That one’s definitely all your fault!


23 posted on 05/25/2009 10:55:01 PM PDT by skr (May God confound the enemy)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: mrsmel
Yeah, when reading that kind of thing you think of petulant teens who bitch about their parents because they know their parents will always be there to pay the bills and put a roof over their heads. If mom and dad suddenly said "We agree, we stink, so leave, we don't deserve to buy your food and clothing anymore," those kids would be singing a different tune.

It's because the #1 status of the US is SO accepted that these countries are free to vocally hope for something they don't really think will happen.

So what will happen when the unthinkable happens, and under their very own "messiah," who they praised the US for choosing?

24 posted on 05/25/2009 10:59:09 PM PDT by Darkwolf377
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet
Interesting read.

Although the author fails to insert the fact that Europe will be part of the Islamic world long before we are and that will definitely cause the split of NATO in that not too distant future. Most if not all the anglo European nations are at or close to zero population growth while Muslims are reproducing like rabbits!

Bottom line is that 911 changed the world in ways my and following generations of Americans will never even begin to comprehend, much less witness.

25 posted on 05/25/2009 11:30:51 PM PDT by ImpBill ("America ... where are you now?" signed, a little "r" republican!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet
if we want to get things done, such as re-designing the world economic order, or intervening for peace, we cannot any longer just do them within the cosy Atlantic club; we are going to have to find new allies in places we would never previously have thought of. And they will be less congenial and have demands of their own. The recent global financial crisis has made it very plain. If we want a more ordered world at a time of great instability, we are going to have to provide a space at the top tables for nations that do not share our culture, our history, our world view or even our values.

It sounds like his is recommending that Europe turn to the dark side. Not in so many words, but yes, in so many words.

26 posted on 05/25/2009 11:34:05 PM PDT by marron
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet

I’ve been reading this story or a version of it every five/six years for over forty years now.


27 posted on 05/26/2009 12:00:39 AM PDT by metesky (My retirement fund is holding steady @ $.05 a can.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: GreyMountainReagan
perhaps it should be<\i>

I agree, but no one asked me.

28 posted on 05/26/2009 1:24:20 AM PDT by eclecticEel (The Most High rules in the kingdom of men ... and sets over it the basest of men.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet

The Europeans do not have the stomach for facing the world without the US. They have been too long inside our protective walls. If the US truly does shift it’s focus elsewhere Europe will likely become a client state of Russia.


29 posted on 05/26/2009 3:01:26 AM PDT by saganite (What would Sully do?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet
Chinese history is littered with instances when this great nation, as disparate and ethnically diverse as Europe, .

I would dispute that -- China is pretty nearly homogenous: ethnically 90 to 95 % HAN Chinese. All other groups have been assimilated -- there are no real Manchu left, ditto for any number of other minorities, all assimilated, just like the Tibetans and uighurs are now being assimilated.
30 posted on 05/26/2009 3:11:15 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delenda est)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet
One will be a rise in regional groupings – of which history may say the EU was the first, albeit highly imperfect example.

AGain, incorrect -- I would theoretically say that India is the first grouping of South Asian nations -- each state in India is culturally and linguistically (and in many cases historically) distinctive.
31 posted on 05/26/2009 3:37:04 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delenda est)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: marron
Again, I have been reading the works of Thomas Paine and this paragraph brought to mind the story he tells of the innkeeper and the child. The innkeeper, while unwilling to take up arms to defend himself, family, etc. hopes for “peace in my time.” Paine describes this phrase as unfatherly, even selfish. Paine then goes on to say that a father would have said, “If there is to be trouble, let it be in my time so my children may have peace.”

This whole article is talking about who Europe should get in bed with to ‘keep their peace.’ At no point truly considering the evil and destruction such a stance brings to them. It is like the tories of colonialist America hoping Howe would not destroy them if the just went along to get along.

The author is correct in describing the power struggle the world is going through, but no one right now can predict who will become top dog. The middle-east has been (is) a destabilizing factor around the globe. The author looks to major countries, perhaps he needs to look to what is an emerging “religious” culture and their 57 states. The overthrow will not come from armies or bombs, but from their own failure to meet and deal with trouble in their own time.

32 posted on 05/26/2009 3:45:40 AM PDT by EBH (What happened to my Country and how do I TAKE it back?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: coloradan; DoughtyOne
The last thing of note they did was invent zero

Even that's in dispute.

You state, "its mathematicians created the algebra and algorithms that would enable the building of computers, and the creation of encryption." The fundamental basis of modern mathematics had been laid down not hundreds but thousands of years before by Assyrians and Babylonians, who already knew of the concept of zero, of the Pythagorean Theorem, and of many, many other developments expropriated by Arabs/Muslims (see History of Babylonian Mathematics, Neugebauer).

What Arab Civilization?

33 posted on 05/26/2009 3:48:30 AM PDT by Madame Dufarge
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: saganite

I doubt it. Russia will also decline. She has VAST problems, stemming from a very sharply declining birth rate of native Slavs, rampant alcoholism, and a surging Islamic population among non-Slavs.

The declining birth rate and rising Muslim tide is a problem for all Europe, from the Atlantic to the Urals and beyond.

What happens in the next twenty years will probably determine Europe’s—including Russia’s—fate as to whether they become Islamic or not. If they become Islamic, they’ll lose their prosperity completely.


34 posted on 05/26/2009 3:56:50 AM PDT by Alas Babylon!
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet
we are reaching the beginning of the end of the perhaps five century long period of the hegemony of western power, western institutions and western values over world affairs.

500 years is not correct. That would put the beginning of western pre-eminence to 1509. That's wrong.

In 1509, the Portuguese and Spanish were exploring new worlds and new routes to India and Asia, but they were not dominant powers.

The dominant power in the Mediterranean was still the Ottoman Empire and that wouldn't change until 1660 and the saving of Vienna by Jan Sobieski III of Poland. The dominant powers in Asia were still Manchu China, Moghul India and the Safavids in Iran.

This position wouldn't change until the mid 1700s and it completely reversed by 1800. Western utter pre-eminence is only about 200 to 300 years old.
35 posted on 05/26/2009 3:57:08 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delenda est)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: saganite

The Europeans do not have the stomach for facing the world without the US. They have been too long inside our protective walls. If the US truly does shift it’s focus elsewhere Europe will likely become a client state of Russia.


you are aware of the fact that the EU states do spend a lot more money on defence (not in % of Gdp of course and still not enought in my oppinion but anyway because of the big size of the EU ecconomy the final result is a lot more money) than Russia does?


36 posted on 05/26/2009 3:59:35 AM PDT by Jonny foreigner
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet
What say you?

[Article] Such United States soldiers as are left in Europe, are here, not for our defence, but to support their operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I say that the article's writer, Paddy Ashdown, errs on this point. The U.S. will always have an Atlantic-centered policy because the country has always had as its key foreign-policy and defense value the protection of its large East Coast population centers from attack, and the large trans-Atlantic trade, which by the way has included a really big chunk of the trade in imported energy.

It's also curious that the writer foresees the growth of protectionist economic policies. Exporting economies have generally been free-traders, as was the U.S. during the 19th and 20th centuries. The U.S. persists in free-trading, even though it's an importer now.

Therefore, with the rise of Asian exporting economies, I don't see where the author's predicted boom in protectionism will come from.

It's also interesting that this article appeared in a Pakistani newspaper.

37 posted on 05/26/2009 3:59:37 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DoughtyOne
No, the Muz world will remain the cesspit of the world. Places that had dire poverty like China and India are now quickly eradicating poverty (ok, quickly is relative, but with populations of 1 billion +, things will take time and moving millions out of poverty each year is quite an achievement), South America is progressing and so too is Africa.

The Moo world on the other hand is regressing to the stone age.
38 posted on 05/26/2009 4:00:18 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delenda est)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: coloradan; DoughtyOne
The last thing of note they did was invent zero, about a thousand years ago or so. Nothing since then, however

the Moos did NOT invent the zero -- the zero was invented by Aryabhatta about 500 AD in north-eastern india. Ditto for "arabic" numerals -- those are actually devanagri numerals from india. Ditto for all those astronomical discoveries -- that came from Iran, still under influence of the Zoroastrians and from Christian Iraq and Syria
39 posted on 05/26/2009 4:02:29 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delenda est)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Madame Dufarge; Cronos
Good posts, meat on the shank! Thank-you BTTT.
40 posted on 05/26/2009 4:11:35 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet

It’s kind of weird that Paddy Ashdown, the former leader of the UK’s ultra left-wing Liberal Democratic Party, is talking about Europe having to worry about security threats. I thought Europeans believed that the period of peace after WWII was the result of European moral virtue, not American military might. Maybe they’re not too coked-up to see reality for what it is, and there’s hope for them after all.


41 posted on 05/26/2009 4:18:48 AM PDT by Zhang Fei
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: lentulusgracchus

well if the writer refers to the troops in Germany for example he is correct saying that they are not there to protect anyone but most of this “report” is just total wrong (to say it polite :-) The US will no longer have a euro centric policy? and so will Europe the other way around? Shuuuure ;-) this writer just ignores such little facts that only for example the US and Europes economys are tied so close together that this is just not possible without resulting in a total desaster for both. so i guess this will not happen.


42 posted on 05/26/2009 4:28:38 AM PDT by Jonny foreigner
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: mrsmel
But I have seen Euro posters on Euro newspaper sites claim to want just that. It’s hard to believe that they really mean it and aren’t just displaying their reflexive anti-Americanism.

I think you've just called them on it.

Anti-Americanism in Europe, in the last century, has usually been associated with Marxism. I noticed it in the writing of English youth writer Arthur Ransome many years ago, and I wondered why he seemed to dislike America. Years later I found out Ransome was a Eurocommunist who'd been to Russia during and immediately after the Russian Revolution, and he'd married Politburo member Grigoriy Zinoviev's personal secretary.

43 posted on 05/26/2009 4:39:13 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Gargantua
True. Though, for 1,800 out of 2100 years, Europe and the U.K. were the major militaries and world-shaping forces. It can change pretty quickly nowadays, with our ever-more-intertwined economies, and everything happening globally at the speed of "bytes."

Quite wrong

If you say 2100 years, you mean from 100 BC. From 100 BC to 300 AD, the main power centres were Rome (Europe), Susa (Iran, the Parthian Empire), Magadha (Gupta / Nanda / Mauryan Empires), the Chola Empire in South india, the Armenian Empire in Asia, the Ethiopian/Axumite Empire in Ethiopia and Yemen, the Gok-turk, Hun and other Turkic empires in Central Asia and the HAN in China.

Then, from 300 AD to 700 AD, the power centres were Byzantium (Asia/Europe), Rome (decaying rapidly), Susa, Axumite Empire, north-indian Empire, Cholas and the Srivijaya Empire (Southern India stretching across the Indonesia archepalago), Champa, Mon in S-E Asia, Song Empire in China, Japan rising and the Central Asian confederations

From 700 AD to 1000 AD those powers also had the Islamic empire first centred in Mecca, then in Baghdad and Cairo.

From 1000 AD you had the rise of the Turkic peoples from the Seljuk to the Ottoman and the rise of the Mongols (and their descendents, the Mughals).

In contrast, Europe was NOT the world-shaping force until the age of discovery and it really took off after the Ottomans were defeated in the 1600s and when the Mughals collapsed around the same time.
44 posted on 05/26/2009 4:42:08 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delenda est)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Darkwolf377

If the US slips, there will not be another pre-eminent superpower. THere will be many super-powers but no one completely dominating like the US did for 50 years after WWII.


45 posted on 05/26/2009 4:43:45 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delenda est)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: IndianChief
The Zero was invented by the Indians and carried to the Middle East by traders, from where it went to Europe.

The zero was invented by the first cave man who ran out of food. :)

46 posted on 05/26/2009 4:44:29 AM PDT by The Duke (I have met the enemy, and he is named 'Apathy'!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Cronos
I would theoretically say that India is the first grouping of South Asian nations ....

And therefore is still a Raj -- an Empire without the Empress of India and Defender of the Faith.

Which an enterprising enemy could attempt to screw with by fomenting internal regional and religious resentments, Hindu vs. Moslem, Hindu vs. Sikh, etc., etc.

47 posted on 05/26/2009 4:51:17 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Cronos

In contrast, Europe was NOT the world-shaping force until the age of discovery and it really took off after the Ottomans were defeated in the 1600s and when the Mughals collapsed around the same time.


Agreed i guess it´s a pretty tough job to shape the world without having discovered it first. :-)


48 posted on 05/26/2009 4:53:37 AM PDT by Jonny foreigner
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: Jonny foreigner
he is correct saying that they are not there to protect anyone

If there were no political-protective or solidarity dimension there, our support activities would be run out of southern Europe or Turkey or Egypt.

If the Russians go charging into Poland, we'll be there in three days.

49 posted on 05/26/2009 4:56:47 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Cronos
The mandarin-induced collapse of China's admiralty also opened the door for the Portuguese.

By 1500, the only remnant of China's big-junk, ocean-going navy was a stone junk in the imperial palace grounds. Ostensibly a tribute to China's glorious navy, it was instead an inside joke, a self-congratulatory trophy put up by the mandarins to celebrate their political-infighting victory over the admirals.

It's still there -- saw it in the travelogue footage broadcast during the Olympics last summer.

50 posted on 05/26/2009 5:01:38 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-84 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson