Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The end of Western hegemony ("..Europeans may well find ourselves missing..Bush before too long.")
The UK Guardian via The News.com ^ | Monday 25 May 2009 16.00 BST | Paddy Ashdown Guardian.co.UK

Posted on 05/25/2009 9:10:30 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

Edited on 05/26/2009 6:13:22 AM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-84 last
To: lentulusgracchus

If there were no political-protective or solidarity dimension there, our support activities would be run out of southern Europe or Turkey or Egypt.

If the Russians go charging into Poland, we’ll be there in three days.


i never said that there is no political-protective or solidary between the US and most parts of Europe. but to be serious the troops in germany really don´t protect anyone any longer. btw. look at a map Russia doesn´t even share a border with Poland so charging Poland would be difficult for them.


51 posted on 05/26/2009 5:03:20 AM PDT by Jonny foreigner
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet
.....to have a rather more subtle and sophisticated foreign policy than hanging on to the apron strings of our neighbourhood friend, the world’s only super power......

How's this?

This sentence was chosen for response because seems to make the point. How can a foreign policy that consists mostly of doing very little become more subtle and sophisticated. Perhaps the diplomats can be more decisive in their choices of wine and hor’derves.

Then there is the part about the gathering into groups to project power. There have been attempts in the Western hemisphere that are failures. He left out the Gulf where there is the grouping of the GCC countries that are making steady progress toward becoming a very strong economic force and more important in world affairs than the stodgy Euros.

George Bush changed the world by invading Iraq and destroying the status quo. That action and the results flowing from it removed the Euros from having a voice in the change in the mid east. America, The GCC and Iran are now the players. Israel became less important because the moderate Arabs learned that fighting the Palestinian battle was small potatoes compared to the coming war with Iran. It is better to have an ally you don't like than fight a bad enemy alone.

When Iraq joins the GCC and the might of the military there is honed to American quality, the power shift will be complete. Iran will be isolated and all alone. In ten or fifteen years, there can be a resumption of the ostracicing of Israel except by that time there will be enough trade to temper animosity.

The rise of the Gulf is already a threat to the Euros. Trading companies owned by UAE Arabs and staffed by Indians are making strong inroads into the century old trading relations between excolonial Africa and Europe. Stodgy French trading companies are losing out to fast moving and technically savvy Gulf traders. Plastics and such derived from oil are being made in the Gulf because there are better, newer plants staffed by non union Asians. The oilless Euro petro chemical plants are doomed.

The Gulf states know that there can be extremely rapid progress when American organizational skills, oil money and third world labor are combined. Those forces will be applied by Kuwaiti, Saudi and Dubai companies to cause Iraq to explode with economic capability. Now that the shackles are gone, the pent up power can be released.

This growth will obsolete Europe.

Meanwhile in the Western hemisphere, most will stagnate. Brazil and USA/Canada will do well but the rest will writhe in the slime of the patriarchs fighting against the masses.

Then there is Asia...... India, China, Japan? how will they get along?

52 posted on 05/26/2009 5:30:12 AM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 . Crucify ! Crucify ! Crucify him!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: lentulusgracchus

Well, no, and yes — it could be called a Raj, but more correctly is a confederation, like Switzerland. And yes, enemies have tried to screw with the Swiss too — the Zurich wars as an example.


53 posted on 05/26/2009 5:30:46 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: lentulusgracchus
If the Russians go charging into Poland, we'll be there in three days.

I sure hope so -- I'm marrying a Polish girl later this year and am terribly pro-Polish -- lovely people.
54 posted on 05/26/2009 5:33:53 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]

To: lentulusgracchus
By 1500, the only remnant of China's big-junk, ocean-going navy was a stone junk in the imperial palace grounds. Ostensibly a tribute to China's glorious navy, it was instead an inside joke, a self-congratulatory trophy put up by the mandarins to celebrate their political-infighting victory over the admirals

EXACTLY! Both China (Mandarins) and India (Brahmins) shot themselves in the foot by trying to keep knowledge with a specific class. The Chinese lost it in the 1400s, while India lost it in the 6th century.
55 posted on 05/26/2009 5:35:15 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies]

To: bert
Israel became less important because the moderate Arabs learned that fighting the Palestinian battle was small potatoes compared to the coming war with Iran. It is better to have an ally you don't like than fight a bad enemy alone.

I'm hoping that Shia Iran picks a war with Sunni Saud quickly.
56 posted on 05/26/2009 5:38:12 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: bert
When Iraq joins the GCC and the might of the military there is honed to American quality, the power shift will be complete

Not a chance -- Iraq has a large Shia population who will look to Iran, while the Kurds are an Irani people. in the East, the Baluchis (who are related to the Kurds), the TAjiks (who are Iranis, descendents of the Sogdians and Bactrians) who feel Irani, and the Uzbeks, Azeris and Turkmen are really Iranis with a thin veneer of Turkic language on top.

There will be a greater Iran, a return to the Achaemenid Empire -- I only hope that the Iranis realise that the thing holding them back isIslam and they would return to the worship of Ahura Mazda.
57 posted on 05/26/2009 5:41:38 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: Cronos

Remember if you will, in the 70’s armed Iranians attacked Mecca and were killed off to a man. That fight is at least 30 years old already


58 posted on 05/26/2009 5:45:22 AM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 . Crucify ! Crucify ! Crucify him!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: Cronos
So now you know why I'm so eager to identify and exile all Harvard grads with nicks in their ears and death-interdicts on their heads, exile the Harvard faculty, distribute their library, and turn their campus into a green commons.

Ditto Yale, Cornell, Princeton, Columbia, and Georgetown and the other privilege academies.

Dartmouth, however, earns a reprieve for having given us Dinesh D'Souza, Laura Ingraham, the Dartmouth Review, and Poisoned Ivy (with foreword by Wm. F. Buckley).

I might relent on Yale for similar reasons, but the Bonesmen would have to go, for the same reasons as Harvard's Porcellians. No "Brotherhoods of the Bell" in America, thank you.

59 posted on 05/26/2009 5:50:34 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies]

To: bert
you want to read something even more fun, read about the Qarmatians -- these guys were Mazdaists or Ibadis who ruled over what is now Bahrain (and which was a Persian satrapy for millenia), they sacked Mecca in the 8th century and carried off the black stone in the Ka'aba. They then shattered it and sent back the fragments, which are now kept in a silver box which the Moos worship.

Read too about Yazdegerd III
60 posted on 05/26/2009 5:58:16 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: Cronos
Well, if you're marrying a Polish girl, then pro-Polish is a wonderful foreign policy to have! ;)

Hopefully, you guys will singlehandedly turn around the population lag in both Poland and the States!

Or maybe it takes both hands ....

lolol

61 posted on 05/26/2009 6:01:47 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | View Replies]

To: lentulusgracchus
Pro-Polish is the only policy to have :-))))

I think the Population lag in Poland and the US aren't that bad -- in Western Europe it is bad, we're better off in comparison

That doesn't mean that I'm not going to do my bit :))))
62 posted on 05/26/2009 6:03:44 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies]

To: coloradan
"The last thing of note they did was invent zero, about a thousand years ago or so. Nothing since then, however."

Correct.
And we Americans recently trumped theirs with our own version.

63 posted on 05/26/2009 6:20:48 AM PDT by Landru (Arghh, Liberals are trapped in my colon like spackle or paste.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Cronos

Very interesting. The more things change, the more they are the same.

My view is that the coming battle will be between groups with common business interests. Cooperation among multistate businesses will influence politics more than the religion. Blood and money will have the power.

Ages old tribal animosities have been covered over as wealth blooms from business. Saudi companies have offices in Dubai. A causeway connects the sinners of Bahrain with the superfaithful of Al Khober.There are roads moving goods across the desert as never before. The tallest building the world is being attempted.


64 posted on 05/26/2009 6:20:52 AM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 . Crucify ! Crucify ! Crucify him!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: bert

Interesting bit about Bahrain — I lived there for many years — lovely people there too and quite the opposite of the Sauds. They HATE Sauds there.


65 posted on 05/26/2009 6:53:06 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: Cronos
the Kurds are an Irani people....

But the Kurds of Iran have frequently been at war with both the Shah's and the mullahs' government in Tehran.

There's little love lost nowadays between the Kurds and the Persians.

The Ansar al-Islam group was an Al Q'aeda-affiliated terrorist NGO supported by Saddam Hussein's government that operated against the Iranian government in Kurdish areas of Iran. They were dispersed by peshmerga and Special Forces attacks and bombing attacks by B-52's.

66 posted on 05/26/2009 7:23:56 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet

No reference by Paddy to the rise of Islamism in Europe and especially in his own country. Britain is paralyzed by left-wing political correctness in the face of a growing threat on its own soil by an alien and hostile population of young Moslems.


67 posted on 05/26/2009 7:48:48 AM PDT by Malesherbes (Sauve Qui Peut)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: IndianChief

Ouch...


68 posted on 05/26/2009 8:38:43 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (Obama is mentally a child of ten. Just remember that when he makes statements and issues policy.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Madame Dufarge; Cronos

Thanks for the responses folks. I appreciate the information.

Thanks also for that link, ‘What Arab Civilization?’

Rather sad isn’t it. Or perhaps rather vile is more like it.


69 posted on 05/26/2009 8:42:51 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (Obama is mentally a child of ten. Just remember that when he makes statements and issues policy.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Madame Dufarge

Can you believe that post only had 68 responses?

Good grief...


70 posted on 05/26/2009 8:55:46 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (Obama is mentally a child of ten. Just remember that when he makes statements and issues policy.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: DoughtyOne

Perhaps if the title had been “What American Idol?”.....:-)


71 posted on 05/26/2009 11:28:00 AM PDT by Madame Dufarge
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | View Replies]

To: Madame Dufarge

Heh heh heh...


72 posted on 05/26/2009 11:39:37 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (Obama is mentally a child of ten. Just remember that when he makes statements and issues policy.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 71 | View Replies]

To: Cronos

very informative posts, there.

But, just to be nitpicky, one could theoretically state the rise of Western Expansionism, not domination to both Columbus’ voyage and also to Vasco Da Gama’s landing in Goa or the Malabar coast in 1498.

I read about the Karmatians in a ME history book, and its quite a story....the only ancient Pagan idol left in Mecca become the cornerstone of the faith.


73 posted on 05/26/2009 11:52:45 AM PDT by swarthyguy ("We may be crazy in Pakistan, but not completely out of our minds," ISI Gen. Ahmed Shujaa Pasha)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: 2ndDivisionVet

Looks to me like the EU will complete the job of ‘unification’ just in time to hand the keys over to their restive Muslim minorities. Since Russia will be the EU’s babysitter, I wonder how that’s gonna play?


74 posted on 05/26/2009 4:31:41 PM PDT by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cronos
Who "ruled" Africa and the gooks, I firmly assert that nobody could care less. Lions still rule half of Africa, that doesn't make them a world force.

The Ottomans, Cholas, Susas, Auxmites, list again the entire irrelevant pack of them; they never fielded a navy that either made historical discoveries in or contributions to the New World (us). The Spaniards, the English and the French did. The Romans ran the Western Hemisphere (the "world," as opposed to the "Third World") from 100BC until Western Europe emerged as a "WORLD-SHAPING force," by having a hand in finding/creating America.

Period. Talk all you want about the Chaldinians and the hootoos and the mongloids. Esoteric is the opposite of "world-shaping, as in, "Nobody but your liberal sphincter college professors will ever give a sh*t!"

Just so you know, I used "mongloids" intentionally.

;-/

75 posted on 05/26/2009 5:21:27 PM PDT by Gargantua ("If not us, when? If not now, ...where....?")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: DoughtyOne; Madame Dufarge

I would change Madame’s article title from ‘What Arab Civilisation’ to ‘what islamic civilisation’ — as I pointed out, the broader term Arab includes the Yemenite civilisations, but we now use the term exclusively for what the Bedos have wrought. And that is NOT a civilisation.


76 posted on 05/27/2009 4:43:35 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

To: swarthyguy

You’re right — the actual milestone date is debatable, but as you said 1492 was the year of the START of the West’s rise. The 1500s, 1600s were completely dominated by the Asian part of Eurasia, but the 1700s saw the swing around.


77 posted on 05/27/2009 4:45:23 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 73 | View Replies]

To: Tallguy

I think you count out the Euros a bit too early.


78 posted on 05/27/2009 4:45:55 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | View Replies]

To: Gargantua
Who "ruled" Africa and the gooks, I firmly assert that nobody could care less. Lions still rule half of Africa, that doesn't make them a world force.

you're kidding, right? North Africa bordering the Mediterranean was always part of the Mediteranean civilised world (Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Carthage, Rome, Greece, Crete, etc. etc.)

Next, the Ethiopians were civilised at least as early as the Greeks and way before the Germanics and Celts (they were part of Kingdoms across the Red Sea like the Shebans/Sabeans etc)

Ethiopia was also Christian before Rome, don't forget that

Finally, the late 1800s was the rush for Africa and it's mineral wealth -- no other continent has that kind of wealth yet and it's obvious the natives aren't able to exploit it, so who rules Africa in the next century will be a superpower

The Ottomans, Cholas, Susas, Auxmites, list again the entire irrelevant pack of them; they never fielded a navy that either made historical discoveries in or contributions to the New World

now that's plain ignorant -- you call the Ottomans irrelevant? When they were what shaped the Balkans, North Africa, the Middle East etc? you say that the Axumite civilisation was irrelevant when it was the second Christian state in the world -- before Rome?? When this civilisation maintained Jewish heritage when they were exiled at different stages in history? sheesh

You think the cholas were irrelevant when the FACT is that they were instrumental in the maritime empires of S-E Asia, when they spread hindu culture and civilisation to the people of S-E Asia (echoed today in Bali, Thailand, Cambodia etc.)

you think that only a country that found the new world was relevant? So, you then think that only Spain and Portugal were relevant as they did the discoveries?

That is so hilarious, it's beyond ridiculous.

The Phoenicians were the first to explore the Mediterranean and bring civilisation to Spain, England etc. -- do you include them in your list of "relevant civilisations"? The Sumerian civilisation ended in 2000 BC, but they had an impact on the Akkadians who had an impact on the Babylonians and Assyrians who had an impact on the Persians who had an impact on the Greeks, who had an impact on the Romans who had an impact on the Germanics and Celts and, through the Church, an impact on the Anglo-Saxons and through them an impact on England, through them, an impact on the US, so do you see the line of civilisation? Do you then agree that the Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians etc. had a hand in "making contributions to the new world"?

Never forget that we always stand on the shoulders of giants who came before us.

The Romans ran the Western Hemisphere (the "world," as opposed to the "Third World") from 100BC until Western Europe emerged as a "WORLD-SHAPING force," by having a hand in finding/creating America.

Hilarious -- you mean to say that you've never heard of the opulence of Susa or Shiraz or Persepolis? Of the great capitals of the Persians, the Guptas, the Mauryas, the Khmer, the Song, the Manchu? Those parts of the world were en par or ahead of what is now the "Western world" at various stages in history.

Secondly, Rome once extended (under Emperor Trajan) to the mouth of the Euphrates -- i.e. they rule over what is now IRaq. IRaq you'd now call third world, but this was under Rome at one point.

The Persians were also the great civilisation that brought viniculture and other discoveries to the Greeks.

The Chaldeans were writing and composing epics when Germanics and Celts and Balts and Slavs were still part of the same Aryan group roaming the lands of CentralAsia-NorthernIran-NWIndia.

All the talk what you gave about putting blinkers on our view of the world is what led us to ignore the re-rise of Asia right from Japan to the S-E Tigers, to the rise of China and India. And that would be (in hindsight) the biggest mistake of them all.
79 posted on 05/27/2009 5:03:15 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: Gargantua
Re-reading your post is so funny and so incorrect: Lions still rule half of Africa, that doesn't make them a world force.

ha ha -- the lions habitat is shrinking to a few spots even in Africa.

Period. Talk all you want about the Chaldinians and the hootoos and the mongloids. !"

And, if you have never heard of the Chaldeans (that is how it's spelt), you've probably never heard of the Syro-Chaldean Church in Iraq? This ancient Christian Church that once send missionaries to the Tungush tribes? And you probably never knew that the Naiman tribe of Mongols were Christian, Assyrian/Chaldean Christian?

Oh, and of course, you would discount all the discoveries of the ancient Chinese, right?
80 posted on 05/27/2009 5:06:36 AM PDT by Cronos (Ceterum censeo, Mecca et Medina delendae sunt)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: Cronos
I would change Madame’s article title from ‘What Arab Civilisation’ to ‘what islamic civilisation’

I would agree.

81 posted on 05/27/2009 5:47:53 AM PDT by Madame Dufarge
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 76 | View Replies]

To: Cronos

Thanks for the mention Cronos. That’s an interesting point.


82 posted on 05/27/2009 6:42:33 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (Obama is mentally a child of ten. Just remember that when he makes statements and issues policy.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 76 | View Replies]

To: Cronos
"Oh, and of course, you would discount all the discoveries of the ancient Chinese, right?"

You've got it. Absolutely.

Very well stated!

:-/

83 posted on 05/27/2009 4:32:13 PM PDT by Gargantua ("If not us, when? If not now, ...where....?")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 80 | View Replies]

To: Cronos

The only weakness in the West I see is the certitude in terms of a potentially lethal mix of ignorance and arrogance.


84 posted on 05/28/2009 10:23:46 AM PDT by swarthyguy ("We may be crazy in Pakistan, but not completely out of our minds," ISI Gen. Ahmed Shujaa Pasha)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 80 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-84 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson