Posted on 05/30/2009 5:59:30 AM PDT by phil_will1
In today’s Washington Post, the White House floats a really scary trial balloon—a new national Value-Added Tax (VAT) to pay for out-of-control spending and a Washington take over of health care. Senate Budget Committee Chairman Kent Conrad appears to be on board. So does Ezekiel Emanuel, brother of White House chief-of-staff Rahm Emanuel, who has been hired by the White House budget office to help design the health care plan and whose book on health care uses a VAT to fund the new government program. Obama economic adviser Paul Volcker is also on-board the VAT-train.
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"We need to draw a clear line in the sand that no new national taxes will be put in place without eliminating—not cutting, but permanently eliminating—our existing income tax."
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What is the VAT? It’s a type of national sales tax that is collected in pieces throughout the production chain, instead of being collected all at once at the cash register like a retail sales tax. In theory, sales taxes like the VAT are pretty good taxes because they are broad-based, difficult to evade, and minimize economic distortions. In practice, they are the ATM machine for runaway government growth, because they are largely invisible to the public and they can raise huge amounts of money in very small chunks, thus minimizing the effective political opposition that generally keeps taxes in check.
(Excerpt) Read more at foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com ...
Give him some more rope! I say, bring it on... 2010 is coming !
I wonder what China will have to say about that when tax cheat tim goes to beg them in a couple of days?
He only meant income taxes. He didn’t say anything about Cap and Trade energy taxes or VAT or higher fees or any other new scheme they can concoct in DC to confiscate our money.
As long as he can prove that it hurts “the rich” more, the Obamatons will cheer.
A perfect opportunity for millions of Americans (those of us with real birth certificates) to go to Washington and outright refuse to pay any VAT tax. I think the media would have to cover that.
I’ve seen a Value Added Tax (VAT) in action while stationed in Europe. If he gets away with that, it will destroy what’s left of the economy.
We all know VAT would be in addition to raising income tax rates on at least some income brackets and that in no way is anyone in the Obama administration thinking of replacing income tax with VAT. I sure hope all those voters who wanted change and believed that Obama would only tax the rich will soon see what a liar he was as they will be seeing the price of everything go up as a result of VAT and cap and trade.
“A perfect opportunity for millions of Americans (those of us with real birth certificates) to go to Washington and outright refuse to pay any VAT tax.”
That’s the thing about a VAT - or any consumption tax - the only way you can refuse to pay it is not to purchase the stuff the VAT is levied on. If you go to the store and they ring up your purchases at $150 with the VAT, you don’t have the option of subtracting out the VAT (even if you knew how much of the total price was the VAT) and paying the lesser amount.
Going to be pretty hard to do that as a VAT is built tax in over the manufacturing process so each step is taxed. You would not even know how much taxes you are paying since most are hidden except for the tax at the end of the purchase price.
That new refrigerator under VAT you just bought for $1,500 probably has $150 hidden taxes or more built into plus whatever federal, state, city, municipal, district, or city block tax your overlords deem necessary
Ironically, this is one of the advantages of a VAT. It makes it extremely difficult to avoid paying the taxes, and effectively makes "responsible taxpayers" out of people (especially illegal immigrants) who never file a Federal tax return, who don't ever get a W-2 form, never pay FICA or Medicare taxes, etc.
VAT system in the U.S. by definition will likely have to include exemptions for exports, too -- which may eventually turn this country into a net exporter.
What was that old saying "too late to complain to early to shoot"?
Yeah, well good luck with that.
No, but the Obamidiots claim a VAT is “regresive” - so “they” will ADD the VAT to all prices at all levels of sales, THEN give a “rebate” of a few thousand to their (supposedly poor) voters based on income, so the “rich” pay the current income tax, the new VAT, the carbon-cap-and-tax tax and DON’T get the VAT refund, nor the carbon tax refund, nor their “free” Medicare health care payments, nor their SSN payments, nor their ....
But that was the intention all along
Should VAT be implemented, would the VAT percentage be deemed as instant inflation by that amount and affect COLA and SS payments accordingly?
... and you will have to pay sales tax on the VAT.
Anything else means one person is paying the way of another person.
yeah...VAT on house sales....
“Ironically, this is one of the advantages of a VAT. It makes it extremely difficult to avoid paying the taxes, and effectively makes ‘responsible taxpayers’ out of people (especially illegal immigrants) who never file a Federal tax return, who don’t ever get a W-2 form, never pay FICA or Medicare taxes, etc.”
That is also an advantage of the FairTax.
“VAT system in the U.S. by definition will likely have to include exemptions for exports, too — which may eventually turn this country into a net exporter.”
Not if the current system remains intact, which is what this proposal is all about. We would still have the cost of payroll taxes and corporate income taxes (not to mention the enormous associated compliance costs) imbedded in our production; the ability to border adjust the incremental new taxes would not affect that. In addition, VATs are highly complex and administratively burdensome and there would be no means of financial relief from that unfunded mandate.
The advantage that you describe would be applicable to the FairTax because it is a replacement for the current system, rather than an add-on.
I’m going to “enjoy” seeing all those illegal aliens (who don’t have drivers licenses or ID’s and who SHOULD be immediately arrested and NEVER paid SSN and income taxes on their cash-based incomes) lining up to get their VAT rebates and carbon tax REBATES in Lost Angeles.
But, you see, by paying cash sales to (other illegal aliens) in LA they don’t pay any VAT either! And the stores who take their cash sales money DON’T pay any VAT or sales tax or income tax or SSN tax or Medicare taxes either!
I agree it will be regressive unless they devise a way to give the poor a refund on all their purchases.
If their argument that the poor, minorities and elderly can’t get a valid picture ID for voter verification is valid, then how much more difficult will it be for them to keep track of all their purchases.
Not to mention that crack dealers don’t give receipts.
There is nothing in the Constitution now which would prevent having a VAT in addition to the current income tax.
However, when we pass the FairTax and repeal the 16th amendment within 7 years afterward, such a combination will be unconstitutional.
I like regressive. Its about time the poor paid their fair share.
I like the Fair Tax better, though.
fair tax has a monthly welfare check for nothing.
just wait for the living prebate.
the fair scam also requires tracking of all purchases and sales and if far more intrusive.
something is needed other than the income tax, the fair scam is NOT it.
The prebate is to address the “regressive” crap the liberals will scream about, especially with the loss of “earned income tax credits.” It “prebates” taxes on expenditures up to the poverty line. I prefer no prebate (let the poor pay their fair share, too), but if that is what it takes to get it passed, fine with me.
And if someone can live on the prebate, more power to ‘em.
And, if we let Congress pass a “living prebate,” or even discuss it, whose fault is that?
The Fair Tax doesn’t require tracking of purchases. Taxpayers don’t have track anything; Stores just have track their retail sales, just as they always have. The government doesn’t have know what is sold to whom. They just need to know the total amount and what their cut is.
“....the fair scam also requires tracking of all purchases and sales and if far more intrusive.”
That is demonstrably false. Neither the FairTax nor any other sales tax that I am aware of requires such tracking. Last I checked, there were about 45 or 46 states with sales taxes.
“something is needed other than the income tax, the fair scam is NOT it.”
What form of tax reform do you support?
Since your approach is not to evaluate the proposal as it is written, but based on what you imagine it will evolve into, isn’t it fair for me to employ the same approach in evaluating your alternative?
absolutly true, it is in the legislation itself.
goto http://www.thomas.gov and look the ACTUAL legislation up.
The government decides WHO is a family
ALL families MUST register to get their monthly welfare check.
ALL sellers MUST register and MUST record transactions. (and to whom)
The language of the fair scam damns the fair scam.
It will take 15 seconds for Robert Reiche and Al Sharpton and ACORN to start demanding a “living prebate”.
You will have K street lining up to declare their clients as providing a “necessity.”
We ALREADY see this type of gaming on state sales tax exemptions.
It should help us get rid of the Obamanation once and for all. Sometimes you have to go through a Jimmy Carter in order to get a Ronald Reagan.
You said on post #29
“....the fair scam also requires tracking of all purchases and sales and if far more intrusive.”
Then you said in post #32:
“The government decides WHO is a family
ALL families MUST register to get their monthly welfare check.
ALL sellers MUST register and MUST record transactions. (and to whom)”
That does NOT back up your original post, as I am sure you recognize.
As another poster has pointed out, buyers don’t have to track purchases anymore than they do with existing state sales taxes. Also, sellers already keep records, so that isn’t any additional burden.
Do you have any objections to the FairTax which are substantive in nature or are you just trying to be argumentative? Engaging in hyperbole (”monthly welfare checks”, “far more intrusive”) does not mask your lack of rationale objections and does not persuade others to your side.
“We ALREADY see this type of gaming on state sales tax exemptions.”
That is exactly the reason that the FairTax eschews exemptions and uses the rebate. Of course, as we have seen, you object to the rebate and if the FairTax included exemptions instead, you would criticize that.
Anything that threatens your beloved Marxist progressive income tax will be demonized, right? All the while you will proclaim that you are really for tax reform .... just not the FairTax, right?
I don’t have to
it has been cited before using the actual text of the actual legal proposal exactly as posted on http://www.thomas.gov
not hyperbole, it is black letter words on the bill.
The IRS will just be renamed NuIRS in the same way the INS became the BCIS and then the USCIS. With all the NuIntrusive authority as provided in the proposal the fairscam advocates.
As I said before something needs to be done and this scam for suckers is not it.
The Fair Tax doesn’t allow for “necessities.” The tax is on ALL retail sales. The prebate deals with necessity issue by rebating taxes up to the poverty line, which, the assumption is, are spent on “necessities.”
As I implied about the “living prebate” demands, its our fault if we let ‘em pass it. Its not part of the legislative package.
You complaining about things that are not part of the Fair Tax. Which, frankly, is true of most of its opponents...
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