Posted on 05/31/2009 9:35:48 AM PDT by Kansas58
Kansas Abortionist George Tiller was shot today as he was going to Church.
(Excerpt) Read more at kansas.com ...
When I saw this headline, I assumed it was a false report. People like Tiller never pay for their sins. If true, shouldn’t Sebelieus be a pallbearer, a domain no longer left to men? If ture, abortion advocates will use this to advance their cause. KS will probably turn more pro-abortion than ever.
“we need to say we are “prochoice on the issue of shooting abortionists’ -—
Because it IS absurd!
And it makes the whole “prochoice’ term look absurd!””
Very effective.
I don’t condone murdering anybody. But I shed no tears for him.
You’re asking the wrong person to stop. It should have been the guy that started it all, not Manic_Episode.
How's that working out for them?
“The difference between Hitler and the liberal abortionists: the happy face and good intentions”
and you forgot,,,the guy who shot him today.
This is an honest question because I am not following your logic. What about rape or incest makes it okay to perform an abortion? Maybe if I understood why you oppose abortion, I could understand. I oppose abortion because it is murdering a baby. It is also violence against women. A baby conceived by rape or incest is no less human and more violence against the woman is not a solution.
I don’t think there is a death penalty in KS, is there?
Not if it hadn’t been reported stolen yet.
Bruce on Operation Rescue: Non-violent civil disobedience.
Glenn: How’s that working out for them?
Bruce: As opposed to what? I’ve mentioned above that more people are now IDing themselves as pro-life than pro-choice - this is a good development.
IF the purists would allow a “States Rights” abortion bill, a simple act of Congress could reverse Roe V. Wade, and save MILLIONS of lives!
The purists want to “save all the babies or none of the babies” and we SAVE NONE OF THE BABIES!
Nope, you can not point to a single political battle that ever got ahead with an “all or nothing” approach.
It is not logical, it is not practical, it is not smart.
pic ping!
Yes, and people in KS will be particularly likely to listen to liberal commentators and turn even more liberal than they already are.
Sounds like something a liberal says.Not to me it doesn't. Sounds right on target and I've voted for every Republican President since I've been old enough to vote.
“What if the shooter did not see this as revenge or punishment, but as defense of the innocent?
I do not support shooting abortionists, but you are using Biblical verses that do not apply.”
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We can have our opinion on whether this verse applies. You are making assumptions about the shooter’s motives, as am I. If my assumptions are correct, and they very well could be, then that verse perfectly applies. He was motivated by *something* to walk into a church and kill Tiller. I think odds are that he thought he was the ‘hand of God’ or the ‘vengeance of God.’ You’re suggesting that he was thinking more subtlely about ‘defense’ of the specific babies that Tiller was murdering.
I wish that shooter been even more subtle and sophisticated in his thinking to understand how many more thousands of babies he just condemned by setting back the pro-life movement in the minds of our youth.
But we will labor on and teach the young to grow up big and strong and to honor God.
Rape and Incest make up for far less than 5% of all abortions.
If it is not possible to pass a law without those exceptions, than passing a law WITH those exceptions is perfectly acceptable and morally REQUIRED!
I see what you are saying.
Why do you think Muslims get liberals to obey them when they tell them to back off? Why do you think libearls feel free and a life cause to attack Christians?
I would say it is only “extreme” civil disobedience and even the death of a few abortionists that has dramatically reduced the number of docs will to go into the abortion industry. I think liberals could cause war like they did with slavery.
That is morally corrupt.
It is my belief that the only consistent approach is what the Catholic Church teaches...that no illicit act can be made licit due to a desire achieve a desirable outcome for another being. All direct abortion is intrinsically evil.
"The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:
'The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death.'(79)
'The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights.' (80)
2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.
If you killed anyone in combat, odds are the person you killed was a much more decent person than Tiller.
Sorry, you are wrong on that point.
The Catholic Church recognize the rare need to protect the life of the Mother, and supports actions that give “equal protection to both” -—
Deliver the baby, even if premature, and try to keep the baby alive!
Yes girlie, ive heard of the ten comandments. Maybe you’ve heard of “judge not lest you be judged”,, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”,,, “and father forgive them, they know not what they do”.
Funny,,, a lot of “Christians” love the violent new testament so much, but don’t have much use for the words attributed directly to Christ himself.
And you didnt address my point. Moses murders innocent smiling babies, kills mothers,, and pimps out the young daughters of those mothers to his soldiers. That muxt be ok with you too, after all, its in exodus,, and god did command it.
Look to Jesus.
No the purists want to be faithful to God, the author of life, not to political expediency.
There is no need for logic here. The Roman Empire used logic. There is simply the need to adher to law of God.
Negotiating away the very lives of some proportion of innocent human beings is pretty damn cynical.
What’s next..negotiating away some percentage of handicapped? mentally retarded? aged? infirmed? ...just to save some? Let’s get what we can get and the rest be damned!! Bull Shit.
Terrorists generally don't distinguish between people - the word you are looking for is "assassin," I believe. Terrorists just want as many people to die as possible. They're more concerned with body count, take September 11, for example. As such, this guy that shot Tiller does not - IMO - fit the definition of a terrorist.
Likely the latter.
“Why do you think Muslims get liberals to obey them when they tell them to back off? Why do you think libearls feel free and a life cause to attack Christians?
I would say it is only “extreme” civil disobedience and even the death of a few abortionists that has dramatically reduced the number of docs will to go into the abortion industry.”
+++++++++++
Let me see if I understand you correctly. Are you saying that pro-lifers should adopt the “effective strategies” of the Muslim terrorists and there is this effective result that derives from a limited terror campaign (and you’re basically OK with that?).
Now, we’re not talking about waterboarding Hiller under a doctor’s supervision, we’re talking about murdering the murderers. Again, I’ll ask us all what we think about vigilantism in light of the Constitution and Scripture?
By the way, we haven’t succeeded in preventing doctor’s from doing 2nd trimester abortions, or are you only concerned about the 70,000 (or so)/year 3rd trimester abortions?
I didn’t say America sucks. Did you miss the first part of my post?
I said we’ve permitted a holocaust. If you have a cleaner word for 50,000,000 murdered innocents, you’re free to use it.
Oh come on! Don’t be so darn negative! For all we know, the killer is a “DailyKos” visitor that finally couldn’t hold back anymore. We’ve no clue where any of this is going to go. I know there’s a far greater chance that the killer is a rabid left-winger than a possible right-winger. Their types do these things to themselves, not unlike criminal mafias and mobs do.
We need to be vigilant and pro-active. Stay focused. We’re getting so wound up in the possible negatives, without knowing all the facts yet, that we may wind up ignoring the possible positives for us that may come out of this.
Stay sharp. Hone your senses, and stay ALERT!
“Not to me it doesn’t. Sounds right on target and I’ve voted for every Republican President since I’ve been old enough to vote.”
So, what’d you do in the war? To feel so free to talk about your country like it was NAZI Germany?
“This will only help the other side if we let it.”
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How would you suggest we not ‘let it’?
If Ernesto Miranda had been kept in jail too, he would not have been killed in the bar in 1976. Instead, the suspect was read his rights on a Miranda card and promptly fled the scene, never to be found.
“Unfortunately we don’t have justices that recognize unborn babies as life. If this is related to his performing abortions would it be any different than killing Hitler during the holocaust?
If so how?”
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How will killing Tiller stop the abortion holocaust (akin to killing Hitler)? How??
That is not what I am saying.
Not all Muslims commit violence and most Muslims in the West don’t agree with violence (I think). An observation: The possibility of violence if liberals push it too far, seems to have them licking the boots of Muslims.
The possibility of violence gives people pause.
That is all I am saying.
Your ability to comprehend analogies appears to be nil.
“We need to change our society, not vigilante justice on a Sunday morning...this guy needed the electric chair, not a vigilante’s bullet.”
Justice was subverted a long time ago.
“Unsupported vigilantism sets back the pro-life message and movement.”
Does it really matter? its not like the MSM is suddenly going to decide to support abortion because of this. They already think every pro-life person is a terrorist.
++++++++++++
Who cares about the MSM? I do care about our youth and the broader society however. That is who our message must resonate with. And yes, our message to them absolutely matters.
“If you killed anyone in combat, odds are the person you killed was a much more decent person than Tiller.”
Very very true. Which is why i also said that anyone who thinks was is the path of Christ is usually always wrong.
Col. Jeff Cooper even went so far as to say that soldiers should feel PTSD, but not cops who shoot a bad guy. He says a cop normally shoots a bad person, doing evil, but a soldier kills a man usually much like you. He would probably have been a fine neighbor, friend, or coworker.
I know war has to happen, but murder in the foyer of a church? Nope,,
So you wanna quote verses eh? Maybe I need to go reread the bible, I coulda sworn there were numerous cases where God brought down his wrath on his enemies and also blessed killing under the right circumstances.
Taking the Bible out of context is not right.
The people of Kansas better remember Sodom and Gomorrah. They need to fear God.
Careful their old-timer lest you be mistaken for a North Korean ambassador.
Best to walk back your internet stance. One thing to think out of the box but quite another to put down in words (on the internet) for all to see.
If their are truly 8 (a squad?), then it would appear as if your haughty words are used to recruit. Care to share the list?
I might need a squad too, ya never know.
"The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:
'The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death.'(79) 'The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights.' (80) 2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being. But today, in many people's consciences, the perception of its gravity has become progressively obscured. The acceptance of abortion in the popular mind, in behaviour and even in law itself, is a telling sign of an extremely dangerous crisis of the moral sense, which is becoming more and more incapable of distinguishing between good and evil, even when the fundamental right to life is at stake. Given such a grave situation, we need now more than ever to have the courage to look the truth in the eye and to call things by their proper name, without yielding to convenient compromises or to the temptation of self-deception. In this regard the reproach of the Prophet is extremely straightforward: "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness" (Is 5:20). Especially in the case of abortion there is a widespread use of ambiguous terminology, such as "interruption of pregnancy", which tends to hide abortion's true nature and to attenuate its seriousness in public opinion. Perhaps this linguistic phenomenon is itself a symptom of an uneasiness of conscience. But no word has the power to change the reality of things: procured abortion is the deliberate and direct killing, by whatever means it is carried out, of a human being in the initial phase of his or her existence, extending from conception to birth.
No circumstance, no purpose, no law whatsoever can ever make licit an act which is intrinsically illicit, since it is contrary to the Law of God which is written in every human heart, knowable by reason itself, and proclaimed by the Church."
You said America was more pleasing to satan than Hitler was. And thats crap.
OOOHHH! Are you afraid he might see it? I’ll bet you were born without a humerus, idiot.
“I agree with you. Even so, he should have been dealt with by the judicial system, not a vigilante.”
I agree, but I was still expecting him to be taken by a lightning strike.
Yes, I am feeling pretty pro-choice right now. The suspect obviously was just exercising his freedom to kill another human being.
“and most Muslims in the West don’t agree with violence “
25% of English Muslims ‘supported’ what the tube bombers did in murdering some 50+ people there. That is DISTURBINGLY high. (sorry, slightly off topic.)
“The possibility of violence gives people pause. That is all I am saying.”
Are you saying this is a good result? I’m saying, I don’t want to side in any way shape or form with Muslim terror tactics, direct or indirect!
Listen we have the weight of truth on our side. Why are we playing like little heroes here, when we have a much stronger more successful message then that. We were already battling Tiller on every turn - do you think most doctors want to deal with that? That would have been sufficient to accomplish 95% of what this joker did related to abortion doctors themselves - without descending the whole movement into associations with terrorism.
That is something I am NOT WILLING TO DO.
On this, I stand on Scripture and the Constitution (the rule of law).
The suspect's name is Scott Roeder.
http://www.nbcactionnews.com/content/breaking/story/George-Tiller-Fatally-Shot-at-Wichita-Church/NoIGaXuul0C-RBrbTPnBjw.cspx
Interestingly, someone by the same name posted the following on Operation Rescue's website a couple of years ago:
"Bleass everyone for attending and praying in May to bring justice to Tiller and the closing of his death camp."
Source: Google cache
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:ZzTSMfjbUlsJ:www.operationrescue.org/pray-in-may-to-end-aboriton-wichita-ks-may-17-20-2007/+%22scott+roeder%22+kansas&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
People may not understand, agree with or like your statement but it is most likely true.
Ok..wait a minute..I misread your post...you are correct in the sense of delivering early or removing Fallopian tubes. But that is not abortion. Abortion is the direct killing of an innocent pre-born human being. And the Church (as I have just shown) teaches that there are no circumstances where a Catholic can support provisions that allow for abortion (eg. rape, incest, medical reasons). Hench..no compromise.
You mistake guilt and shame for the recognition of the blow-back there will be for the pro-life cause, if it is indeed one of our own that killed him. media smears, hateful and ignorant? yes. expected? of course. It’s called knowing your enemy. It is regrettable when someone from our side gives them ammunition to use against us.
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