Posted on 05/31/2009 10:08:54 AM PDT by upchuck
WICHITA, Kan. -- Dr. George Tiller, a Kansas man who became one of the most famous figures in the national debate over abortion, was shot and killed at his church Sunday morning, KAKE-TV reported.
Tiller was walking into Reformation Lutheran Church at 10:03 a.m., when he was shot.
Tiller was pronounced dead when emergency crews arrived, the station reported.
Police were looking for a blue Ford Taurus with a K-State vanity plate, license number 225 BAB. Police described him as a white male in his 50's or 60's, 6'1," 220 lbs, wearing a white shirt and dark pants.
Tiller doesn't --ur --didn't do partial birth abortions. He stabbed the baby's heart with a hypodermic needle of digoxen (or something like that) to kill them with a heart attack before they were born. FYI
Oh boy. This isn’t good. Murder is murder! Whoever did this is in deep doodoo. Dr. Tiller deserved to be tried for murder and be put to death for his crimes, but not vigilanteism! This does not help our cause.
I hope he was killed for another reason than abortion.
If the guy who shot Tiller did it because he thought it was right, why did he flee? Why not stand up and take credit for it, if you’re going to go to those lengths.
Ok, you’re right and im wrong. Rudolph was a wonderful man for trying to murder 15 or 20 innocent people who went to see the olympics that day. Too bad Richard Jewell saved them i guess.
Where exactly does Jesus recommend murder at random, to achieve his will??
It is you that are clueless. Rudolph was precisely the same as Al queda. Murder at random to try to bring about change. Its 100% islam. And like islam, its demonic.
And you dodge the question sport. Is Rudolph justified in the *random* murder of my daughter, or someones firefighter son, to enforce theology? Is this what you think is the path of Christ?
I'm always right.
Yes he did. It is important to teach Christian principles and try to change peoples' hearts so that the moral foundation will return. Then, when Godly people are in control, the law enforcement authorities will be directed to detain and imprison those who support abortion, not those who oppose it. Governments are in place because God wants them there -- everyone must read the Bible and understand that principle. It is unchangeable.
Even Operation Rescue denounced this. It is going to cause an enormous backlash.
Got it. Still wont answer, which means you have no defense ethically or biblically. Hard to defend *random murder* by bombing a place you know a crowd will form, without sounding kinda Islamic, huh?
If you are kidding fine. But if you actually approve of Rudolph using *murder at random* as a way to save the unborn, then you need to discuss that with a professional, and also your theology with your minister.
Someone had given them a martyr.
According to the story, the shots were fired from the church lobby as the service was going. Was he sitting in the pew, during a service? Thats going to be extra nice for the cause, huh?
Thats almost as smart as a segregationist dynamiting little African-American girls in sunday school!
To: PapaBear3625
Take a look at how Daily Kos is covering reactions of FR.
I would worry about what those boneheads are saying as I would worry about what a monkey was thinking watching a chess match.
(Hi, Kostards!)
When the facts get out...that this guy was a late-term abortion provider...I think the public will tune it out because the public over-whelmingly finds the practice repulsive..
There are all kinds of bad news headlines hitting during this recession and vying for dominance...I don't think this story will have the legs some think it will.
Thats fun to say. Except the reality is, that their evaluation of us will be on all networks tomorrow as though it was fact. Nobody will report what most really said. The news will report “FreeRepublic appears to support the murder”. Wars like this are won in hearts and minds, not by bullets.
Sarah and her positive example did a million times more good for the cause than this sick murderer did.
One problem with your attitude.Hussein & Friends *listen* to those Chaos Kids because they vote in primaries and they give $$$.
Serious $$$.
Aside from a death sentence, the jury decides guilt and the judge imposes the sentence.
How does it differ from what they said about us yesterday?
I could go for involuntary manslaughter. That’s good for about 2-5 years, which I think is fair.
First: I agree; it’s starting.........
Second: I’ll rephrase Titus Livy’s “Yes we must obey our laws, until we can no longer live with the result of not obeying them.” as follows:
Yes, we must obey our laws, until we can no longer live with the result of obeying the newly made laws by the usurping left.
As for the subject of this thread, I see no reason to take sides. A murderer murdered a murderer. No more, no less.
Leni, we belonged to an LCA Lutheran for 12 years before it merged to the ELCA...(our dear Wheaton graduate pastor retired)
..we left, and joined a Reformed Presbyterian (PCA)...
You are exactly right.
But, as long as you brought it up, there was a guy in the old Testament (King Saul) who got taken to the wood shed by God for NOT wiping out EVERYONE (Amalekites) when instructed to do so!
If it turns out the motive of the killer was because of Tiller's actions as an abortionist, I'll keep my opinion to myself because I don't know who might be reading it.
Almost forgot, thanks for the ping!
I didnt know Jesus was in the old testament?
And it’s not a fact that Rudolph slowed abortion. He creeped out sane people everywhere. Abortion has slowed for other reasons, but he ain’t it. Women like Sarah are much more of the reason.
You make the mistake of assuming correlation is the same thing as causality. IE,, If i prove to you that everytime you pass gas, someone in china has a heart attack, i haven’t “proven” that your flatulence is causing chinese heart failure.
Rudolphs terrorist attacks had nothing to do with reduced numbers of abortions.
Gotta link?
So God ordered Saul to murder the women and BABIES because,,,, they were Philistine babies??? He kept the men alive and thats what made God angry?? No baby is guilty of anything. You believe God ordered him to do this? Interesting.
I'm not surprised.
Dude,,, he ISNT.
“Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.”
OK, that what he was supposedly told. So does this justify killing babies sometimes? You need to be very careful playing around in the old testament. Jesus came precisely to end that Jewish Law crappola. You seem to argue that because God supposedly wanted women and babies murdered by Saul, that this nut in Kansas has a precedent for murder today?
Dude, not only is He in it, He wrote it!
Good point.
You are poorly informed. Nobody suggests Jesus wrote any of the books of the Bible. And none of the old testament features him, except as a Prophesy. All his spoken words are found in the new testament.
Then who authored the Bible?
I am not trying to compare our soldiers with murderers but the two have one thing in common—the act of taking lifes. Our soldiers do it in our defense and the abortionist for monetary gain or for some other reason.
Melchizedek.
Who gives a damn?
Under the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances (FACE) Act signed by Bill Clinton in 1994, abortion clinics in this country are already provided an absurd level of protection that doesn't apply to any other business establishment or even a government facility.
Heck -- you could probably get a longer prison sentence for blocking access to an abortion clinic than you would get for an armed assault against a military base in this country.
>> The shooter had to kill in order to save the lives of numerous future children. If the shooter is considered a murderer, then so are our brave soldiers. They (the soldiers) have to kill in order to save our lives from the constant threat of terrorism.
Self-defense or defense-of-another killings require an IMMEDIATE threat (even for soldiers). The guy was walking into a church, not aborting a child.
SnakeDoc
As an astute observer pointed out some years ago (it may have been after the Slepian killing in Buffalo, NY), attacks on abortionists were almost non-existent until the government began forcibly removing peaceful demonstrators from public areas outside the offices and homes of abortionists.
What proponents of abortion think about its opponents isn't something that I really care about. If you want to, that's fine and you can call it posturing if you want to. However, you and the rest of the appeasers on this board who've just jumped me for not being scared of the abortion boogey man MSM and call it posturing, etc. should really realize that you are in effect siding with them. Go play nice with them. I'm sure they'll appreciate it and maybe someone over at the Daily Kos or DU will even think you're reasonable. Hell, maybe they'll even change their mind about abortion.
Huh? My comment was only about Tiller being killed. It was not right for Tiller to have killed innocent babies, nor was it right for the shooter to have killed Tiller. God will decide who's in more trouble.
What was Tiller even doing near a Christian Church, anyway? The only good thing out of this entire incident is that fewer unborn babies will be killed this week in Wichita...
Your post doesn’t make any sense, that was just rambling.
MSNBC has included in their story a table of “Abortion related Violence”, that AP has, and I have copied and pasted below:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31029377/
Abortion-related violence
Following is a list of other recent cases of abortion-related violence:
April 2007: Authorities say Paul Ross Evans placed a homemade bomb in the parking lot of the Austin Women’s Health Center in Texas. A bomb squad disposes of the device, which contained two pounds of nails. There are no injuries.
Oct. 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian is fatally shot in his home in a suburb of Buffalo, N.Y. Militant abortion opponent James Kopp is convicted of the murder in 2003 and sentenced to 25 years to life in prison.
Jan. 29, 1998: A bomb explodes just outside a Birmingham, Ala., abortion clinic, killing a police officer and wounding several others. Eric Rudolph later pleads guilty to that incident and the deadly bombing at the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta. He justifies the Alabama bombing in an essay from prison, writing that Jesus would condone “militant action in defense of the innocent.”
Jan. 16, 1997: Two bomb blasts an hour apart rock an Atlanta building containing an abortion clinic. Seven people are injured. Rudolph is charged by federal authorities in October 1998.
Dec. 30, 1994: John Salvi opens fire with a rifle inside two Boston-area abortion clinics, killing two receptionists and wounding five others. Sentenced to life without parole, he kills himself in prison in 1996.
Nov. 8, 1994: Dr. Garson Romalis, who performs abortions in Vancouver, Canada, is shot in the leg while eating breakfast at home.
July 29, 1994: Dr. John Bayard Britton and his volunteer escort, James H. Barrett, are slain outside a Pensacola, Fla., abortion clinic. Barrett’s wife, June, is wounded in the attack. Paul J. Hill, 40, a former minister and anti-abortion activist, is later convicted of murder and sentenced to death.
Aug. 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller is shot in the arms as he drives out of parking lot at his Wichita, Kan., clinic. Rachelle “Shelley” Shannon is later convicted and sentenced to 11 years in prison.
March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn is shot to death outside Pensacola, Fla., clinic, becoming the first U.S. doctor killed during an anti-abortion demonstration. Michael Griffin is convicted and serving a life sentence.
The “pro-life” activists are violent, a threat, terrorists, etc. meme starts.
Hmmm. The shooter no doubt committed murder by our laws.
Whether he will be judged as a murderer by God may be an open question, and none of us know the answer.
In 1942 Reinhard Heydrich was killed in Prague in cold blood. Czech commandos committed what was by the law of the land murder. They were from a country that had surrendered and they were not in uniform. They did this because he was orchestrating the destruction of the Czech people. Did they kill a tyrant or commit murder or both? There is also the case of course of John Brown and slavery.
Yes we must obey our laws, until we can no longer live with the result of not obeying them.
_______________________
On principle we are agreed. On application, we might not be. In the case of the Czechs, they were “surrendered” by Neville Chamberlain, never given an opportunity or a say to determine their own fate. They were engaged in a war against oppression — during a time of declared war (WORLD war), and so acted accordingly.
On the other hand, John Brown broke the law, plain and simple. He may (or may not) have been morally right regarding slavery, but that did not justify the attempt at rebellion. I think it’s ironic to note that the SAME United States government that aauthorized Col. RObert E. Lee in 1858 to take Brown down at Harpers Ferry, less than 3 yrs later instigated a war to accomplish the same ends as Brown (or so they nobly claim).
In much the same way, the murderer of Tiller has acted inappropriately, unjustly, and illegally, as did Brown. We are NOT engaged in war (not yet anyway), and while there was provocation (the murder of the unborn can be seen no other way by a moral people), this does not justify an individual taking the law into his own hands, being judge, jury and executioner.
I for one, will NOT hold this person up as a hero. He is a criminal. What he has done has percipitated — or at least hastened — the coing persecution against Christians, gun owners, and any others who believe in “traditional” or “Conservative” values and governance. When we face this, we will have this murderer to thank in part.
I suggest we ALL get prepared. The next year and a half is likely to be quite tense and dangerous.
We shall have to let things play out for a while before we have enough context to say more.
________________
I think you’re right JB. This is awfully convenient for the Left... But we don’t know anything for sure yet, other than Tiller is dead.
I believe that this is a “Riechstag Fire “ incident. I do not personally believe that anyone that is against infanticide would commit homicide.
As far as my feelings go, I would not take his or ant other abortionists life. Neither will I mourn when someone else does.
What one sows, one also reaps.
Not really. Chamberlain agreed to not fight over the Sudetenland. Hitler rolled in and the Czechs opted not to fight. Shortly thereafter Hitler called Czech President Benes into a meeting and gave him a diktat based on a threat to not only invade, but to bomb Prague flat just for the hell of it. President Benes gave in and the Czechs surrendered themselves. So the Czechs did indeed surrender to the Germans of their own accord, albeit under great duress.
They were engaged in a war against oppression — during a time of declared war (WORLD war), and so acted accordingly.
Per the Geneva Convention, they were not a combatant. Czechoslovakia never declared war on Germany.
On the other hand, John Brown broke the law, plain and simple. He may (or may not) have been morally right ..., but that did not justify the attempt at rebellion.
Take out the specifics and you could just as well be talking about John Adams or George Washington.
In much the same way, the murderer of Tiller has acted inappropriately, unjustly, and illegally, as did Brown. We are NOT engaged in war (not yet anyway), and while there was provocation (the murder of the unborn can be seen no other way by a moral people), this does not justify an individual taking the law into his own hands, being judge, jury and executioner.
If he were killing two year olds instead of babies, but it were legal for him to do so, would you still consider the killer wrong, or just illegal. My point is that unjust laws lead to illegal action by just people. We can argue about how unjust a law must be before each of us may consider our illegal actions just, but the underlying principle is that justice and legality are not one in the same.
I for one, will NOT hold this person up as a hero. He is a criminal. What he has done has percipitated — or at least hastened — the coing persecution against Christians, gun owners, and any others who believe in “traditional” or “Conservative” values and governance. When we face this, we will have this murderer to thank in part.
Perhaps, and that is a good point. However, the Left has never seemed to pay any price for the actions of its radicals.
I suggest we ALL get prepared. The next year and a half is likely to be quite tense and dangerous.
Good suggestion.
Has anyone raised the possibility that this killing may not have been motivated by his abortion work? What else was Tiller into? disgruntled husband, boyfriend? etc.
Good point.
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