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TILLER SUSPECT IN CUSTODY (KAKE Ch10 Wichita)
KAKE News ^ | 5/31/09

Posted on 05/31/2009 12:15:41 PM PDT by Crazieman

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To: NavVet

This is what is happening across the board, with all issues.

The left is making it impossible for people to address their grievances through the political process,

and other means will be taken when that pressure cooker blows.


101 posted on 05/31/2009 1:03:19 PM PDT by MrB (Go Galt now, Bowman later)
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To: Crazieman

Interviewee on Fox commenting, “...and in a church! the one place you would think a person would be safe...”
I can think of another.


102 posted on 05/31/2009 1:04:09 PM PDT by 668 - Neighbor of the Beast (Confirm thy soul in self-control, thy liberty in law.)
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To: xzins

I would agree that no harm can come to me unless God’s allows it, but I do not think that also means that God intends for all evil to occur. It it were so, man could not reasonably be held responsible for his actions; and I do not believe for a second that position can be supported by the Bible.


103 posted on 05/31/2009 1:04:30 PM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: ElayneJ
Why would the killer choose to commit this crime with a roomful of witnesses present?

At church his guard would be down and he would not have security with him as he probably would going to the abortion clinic. Also, Tiller was an usher and all he would have to do is sit next to the aisle and Tiller would walk right up to him.

104 posted on 05/31/2009 1:04:50 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: Bushbacker1
Tiller Was Serving as Usher When He Was Shot

Now Tiller can serve as Usher for the Last Eternal Church of Satan way down south in Hellville.
105 posted on 05/31/2009 1:05:05 PM PDT by mkjessup (Yeah, I'm praying for 0bama. Praying for God to light his ass up with a major lightning bolt.)
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To: SeaHawkFan
"Depending on the state of mind of the killer, the punishment for the crime for what he may eventually be convicted might be far less.

That's not the way it works. He's either sane, or he's insane. Insanity is going to be virtually impossible to prove as he fled the seen. Fleeing the seen is prima fascia evidence of consciousness of guilt.

His only hope is to plead to a second degree or manslaughter charge. But, if it goes to trial, I can promise you it will be first degree murder. Here's the law and minimums in Kansas...

Second Degree Murder

Second degree murder is an intentional killing that was not premeditated. Second degree murder can also be charged in instances where the killing was unintentional but reckless under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life.

The sentencing guidelines provide a range of sentence from a minimum of 147 months imprisonment to a maximum prison term of 653 months on an intentional killing, and a range of 109 months to a maximum of 493 months on an unintentional but reckless killing.

Voluntary Manslaughter

Voluntary Manslaughter is the intentional killing of a human being upon a sudden quarrel or in the heat of passion or upon the unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force.

The sentencing guidelines provide a range of sentence from a minimum of 55 months imprisonment to a maximum prison term of 247 months.


106 posted on 05/31/2009 1:05:39 PM PDT by Big_Monkey
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To: Crazieman

Too bad the guy who shot the abortionist, did not stick around and face the music. Now he is just another coward deserving of the death penalty himself.


107 posted on 05/31/2009 1:07:01 PM PDT by Mark was here (The earth is bipolar.)
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To: prophetic

I’ve seen it several times. It’s one of those movies that is hard to turn off when you start watching it. His morals were certainly suspect, but he was a great man for what he did for Afganistan and the defeat of the Soviet Union in both Afganistan and ultimately the Cold War.

Charlie Wilson is a great example of how God can use imperfect men to do his will.


108 posted on 05/31/2009 1:07:21 PM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: IrishCatholic; pallis
They already have. Mike Hendricks at the KC Star on the Prime Buzz blog has spilled a vitriol filled post calling all pro lifers accomplices.

They should fear that. How many abortionists will there be if pro-lifers start taking the law into their own hands.

109 posted on 05/31/2009 1:07:24 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: FutureRocketMan; All

“This could hurt the Pro-life movement. scratch that, it WILL hurt the pro-life movement.”

NOT if we frame the debate the way the Democrat-Worshipping media would.

We simply describe Tiller’s death as:

“A VERY Late-Term Abortion in the 272nd Tri-mester.

YOU wouldn’t stand against ABORTION, would you, Ms. Gay Network Segment Producer? That would be VERY un-PC, you know!”


110 posted on 05/31/2009 1:07:43 PM PDT by tcrlaf ("Hope" is the most Evil of all Evils"-Neitzsche)
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To: xzins

How about people unrelated to you in immediate threat of life?


111 posted on 05/31/2009 1:07:50 PM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: narses

The St. Paul Area(MN) Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America has among its three main goals this decade “to ensure that no person is forced to live in poverty.’’

this sounds to me like politicing to me. another way of saying, if the church can’t take care of all the poor, we’ll make sure the government does via confiscating your money,whether you’re religious or not.

The ELCA in MN were also some of the main opponents in lawsuits against concealed carry laws passing in MN.


112 posted on 05/31/2009 1:08:04 PM PDT by WOBBLY BOB (ACORN:American Corruption for Obama Right Now)
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To: Fabozz
By this single act, the shooter has set back the pro-life cause decades. He has condemned more babies to death than Tiller ever dreamed of killing.

How so?

113 posted on 05/31/2009 1:08:47 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: Crazieman

The gun-hating Brady Bunch is squealing with glee. They’ve been praying for a highly visible shooting so they could use the corpse as a soapbox to stand on and speechify, and now they have one.


114 posted on 05/31/2009 1:09:03 PM PDT by behzinlea
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To: Crazieman

This was the wrong action for anyone to take. Dr Tiller deserved the right to repent and this has been violently taken from him.

Violence is not always the answer to every situation. This was not a “kill or be killed” scenario.

I hope we get to hear the reason for the shooting.


115 posted on 05/31/2009 1:09:44 PM PDT by HighlyOpinionated (Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann in 2012. With Liz Cheney as Secretary of State.)
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To: Crazieman
Tiller owns the entire justice and political system here. Nearly every judge is in his back pocket.

Not any more.
116 posted on 05/31/2009 1:10:22 PM PDT by mkjessup (Yeah, I'm praying for 0bama. Praying for God to light his ass up with a major lightning bolt.)
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To: SeaHawkFan; Dr. Eckleburg; wagglebee; P-Marlowe; blue-duncan

I believe that many human leaders in the past have allowed great evils to happen, and that because they saw a greater good that would result.

One example, of course, is Truman’s atomic bombing of Japan.

Another example, against his own people, is Churchill’s not warning known bombing sites in England, because he did not wish to reveal the Axis code had been broken.

This work is proceeding exactly as it should. God is in control, AND men are responsible for their own acts, AND it will all work out for the good.

Don’t you believe that???


117 posted on 05/31/2009 1:10:30 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain, Pro Deo et Patria)
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To: MrB
The left is making it impossible for people to address their grievances through the political process...

No, that is simply a poor excuse for a person who is unable to construct a salient social-political argument is difficult times.

118 posted on 05/31/2009 1:11:00 PM PDT by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: ElayneJ; Ann Archy
This from KAKE 10:

Attorney Dan Monnat said Tiller, one of the nation's most visible and strident advocates for abortion rights, was shot as he served as an usher during morning services at Reformation Lutheran Church. Monnat said Tiller's wife, Jeanne, was in the choir at the time of the shooting.

119 posted on 05/31/2009 1:11:25 PM PDT by Bushbacker1 (I'll miss President Bush greatly! Palin in 2012!)
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To: xzins; stockpirate; wagglebee; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe; Corin Stormhands; enat; blue-duncan
there are 3 moral justifications for killing: a just war, true self defense, and legal/moral capital punishment.

If the killer did this solely because of Tiller's abortion business why isn't it morally justified?

120 posted on 05/31/2009 1:12:06 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: DuncanWaring

If in “immediate danger” and if I were proximate to that danger, then sure.

At some point, though, we cross into the responsibility of the security force (whether police or military) who also have a moral justification when killing for truly necessary security concerns.


121 posted on 05/31/2009 1:13:06 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain, Pro Deo et Patria)
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To: Big_Monkey
Voluntary Manslaughter is the intentional killing of a human being upon a sudden quarrel or in the heat of passion or upon the unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force.

Voluntary manslaughter is a distinct possibility. Second degree murder would be much more difficult.

What is the KS definition of involuntary manslaughter?

122 posted on 05/31/2009 1:13:45 PM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: Fabozz
He [the shooter] has condemned more babies to death than Tiller ever dreamed of killing.

How do you figure?
123 posted on 05/31/2009 1:14:04 PM PDT by mkjessup (Yeah, I'm praying for 0bama. Praying for God to light his ass up with a major lightning bolt.)
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To: HighlyOpinionated
I hope we get to hear the reason for the shooting.

We do not need to hear the reason for the shooting.

Instead, the jury simply needs to know the facts of who pulled the trigger, find the person or persons guilty and sentence them to death.

124 posted on 05/31/2009 1:14:24 PM PDT by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: wmfights

Because the murderer was not in proximate relationship to an immediate murder taking place.

In fact, Tiller was at church.

Let’s not overlook, however, that this could be an aggrieved family member of a Tiller victim. No one has id’d the murderer as of yet.


125 posted on 05/31/2009 1:15:46 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain, Pro Deo et Patria)
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To: Crazieman

Look for Bill O’Reilly to take a lot of heat. Just a prediction.


126 posted on 05/31/2009 1:16:35 PM PDT by Borges
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To: SeaHawkFan

Looks like the shooter drove to the church with the intent of killing a human being.

That is a death penalty case.


127 posted on 05/31/2009 1:16:49 PM PDT by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: wmfights; xzins
If the killer did this solely because of Tiller's abortion business why isn't it morally justified?

Because vigilante justice IS NOT morally justified.

If I know a woman who is planning to abort her baby, it is my moral duty to try to stop her. However, if she persists, I do not have the moral right to follow her to the abortuary and kill her or the abortionist.

128 posted on 05/31/2009 1:17:14 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: xzins

A man with Operation Rescue in KS was interviewed and told the reporter he didn’t know the perp “based on the name” she (the reporter) had given him, so the name is out there somewhere.


129 posted on 05/31/2009 1:18:49 PM PDT by jennyjenny
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To: SeaHawkFan
I just don't see a prosecutor settling for anything beneath 2nd Degree for a plea, and anything less than 1st Degree for a trial. Incidentally, the maximum minimums in Kansas after 1999 dictate a minimum sentence of 20 years to life for a first degree conviction. Here's the two involuntary charges that are possible.
Involuntary Manslaughter

There are two statutes dealing with involuntary manslaughter. The first defines involuntary manslaughter as the unintentional killing of a human being, committed recklessly or in the commission of a felony other than an inherently dangerous felony, or during the commission of a misdemeanor enacted for the protection of human life. Involuntary manslaughter charges can also be brought in circumstances where a death occurs during the commission of a lawful act in an unlawful manner.

The sentencing guidelines provide for a range of sentence from 31 months to a maximum prison term of 136 months.

The second statute defines involuntary manslaughter as the unintentional killing of a human being committed while a person was operating a vehicle under the influence of alcohol, drugs or both.

The sentencing guidelines provide for a range of sentence from 38 months to a maximum prison term of 172 months.


130 posted on 05/31/2009 1:19:11 PM PDT by Big_Monkey
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To: xzins

I don’t look at the decisions of Truman and Churchill as being anything close to being evil. War requires difficult decisions about life and death.

In the case of Tiller, and while I wouldn’t have killed him, I think one could make the argument that his killer is responsible and God can make it work for good. Since I cannot know the full mind of God, I will not speculate.

I believe that God can use ANYTHING for His purpose even when man cannot see it or understand it. After all, He is God.


131 posted on 05/31/2009 1:20:47 PM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: jennyjenny

Yes, I meant pro-lifers. I went back to see if I could edit but couldnt find a way.
And I agree with you regarding when MSM denouncers pro-abortionists.


132 posted on 05/31/2009 1:21:39 PM PDT by LeavingNewYork
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To: wmfights
If the killer did this solely because of Tiller's abortion business why isn't it morally justified?

Because, it was not the shooter's responsibility to determine what is a morally justified killing.

If that were the case, pro-lifers could freely murder not only abortion doctors, but also doctors who prescribe birth control pills.

For that matter, animal rights activists could freely murder people who eat meat believing it is morally justified.

133 posted on 05/31/2009 1:22:52 PM PDT by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: trumandogz

Did you read the definition of voluntary manslaughter and the associated penalty in Post #106?


134 posted on 05/31/2009 1:23:10 PM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: the invisib1e hand
All this madness took place in, what, an Episcopal church? But be sure the Catholic Church will wind up taking the blame.

Tiller was an ELCA Lutheran.

135 posted on 05/31/2009 1:23:15 PM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed Imposter")
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To: wagglebee
Do I believe that Tiller repented and received Salvation? I think it is highly unlikely; but I CANNOT say that for a certainty. God alone judges who will go to Heaven and who will go to Hell.

Well as for me, I think I would bet the rent and a year's salary that George 'The Killer' Tiller is already getting that warm toasty feeling that does NOT involve a festive holiday fireplace.
136 posted on 05/31/2009 1:23:51 PM PDT by mkjessup (Yeah, I'm praying for 0bama. Praying for God to light his ass up with a major lightning bolt.)
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To: Big_Monkey

This looks to be a death penalty case.


137 posted on 05/31/2009 1:24:09 PM PDT by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: wmfights

How many babies has Tiller killed?


138 posted on 05/31/2009 1:24:36 PM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: Conservativegreatgrandma

60,000!


139 posted on 05/31/2009 1:24:56 PM PDT by Cedric
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To: mkjessup

Watch out. The tut-tut’ers will be after you in a minute....saying those terrible things about the late Dr. Tiller.....


140 posted on 05/31/2009 1:25:39 PM PDT by clintonh8r (Librerals are more dangerous to liberty than terrorists.)
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To: All

http://www.kansas.com/news/breaking/story/833730.html


141 posted on 05/31/2009 1:25:51 PM PDT by AliVeritas (I wake up, the evil one cries.)
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To: WaterBoard

50 million. One of them might have found a cure for cancer...one of them might have become President, at least some of them would have made a huge difference. They were murdered by the one person nature designated to be their ultimate protector - their mother.

It’s beyond tragedy... beyond travesty.


142 posted on 05/31/2009 1:25:55 PM PDT by Aria ( "The US republic will endure until Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the people's $.")
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To: mkjessup; wagglebee

Pharaoh hardened his heart.

Pharaoh hardened his heart.

Pharaoh hardened his heart.

God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.


143 posted on 05/31/2009 1:27:13 PM PDT by Cedric
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To: SeaHawkFan

Yes, I, too, believe can can use anything for His purpose, but I do not think God is surprised by anything.

He knows everything that ever will be.

If He knows it ahead of time, then He has permitted it. For His own purposes, but I’m not going to come down on the side of a less than omniscient God.


144 posted on 05/31/2009 1:27:55 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain, Pro Deo et Patria)
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To: xzins
Because the murderer was not in proximate relationship to an immediate murder taking place.

"immediate" is also a matter of perception. Monday morning could be "immediate" in the mind of the killer.

My first thought when hearing of this was to look for justified killing in Scripture. The first thing I found was Exodus 21:22-23. I read that as indicating life for life if a baby is killed.

145 posted on 05/31/2009 1:28:08 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: xzins

How about stopping “open and notorious” serial killers who are being ignored by the “security force”?


146 posted on 05/31/2009 1:28:08 PM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Cedric

Forgive me but doesn’t that make the score 60,000 to one?


147 posted on 05/31/2009 1:28:23 PM PDT by Conservativegreatgrandma
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To: aft_lizard

As are Annette Benning and Warren Beatty. Also, the woman who played the female commander on Star Trek Voyager (her name escapes me)


148 posted on 05/31/2009 1:29:15 PM PDT by chae (I am karmic retribution)
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To: Aria
One of them might have found a cure for cancer...one of them might have become President, at least some of them would have made a huge difference.

Plus, abortion is the reason we now have a flood of illegal immigration.

149 posted on 05/31/2009 1:29:21 PM PDT by Cedric
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To: Big_Monkey

Looks to me like voluntary manslaughter is the appropriate charge. If the prosecutor doesn’t include voluntary manslaughter as a lesser alternative, s/he is likely to not get a conviction on a second degree murder and then the guy could walk, which I don’t think would be such a bad result.

Prosecutor will have to be very careful on this one since the pro-aborts will want second degree murder to be the charge without the alternative of voluntary manslaughter. Over reaching could benefit the defendant.


150 posted on 05/31/2009 1:30:25 PM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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