Skip to comments.TILLER SUSPECT IN CUSTODY (KAKE Ch10 Wichita)
Posted on 05/31/2009 12:15:41 PM PDT by Crazieman
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This is what is happening across the board, with all issues.
The left is making it impossible for people to address their grievances through the political process,
and other means will be taken when that pressure cooker blows.
Interviewee on Fox commenting, “...and in a church! the one place you would think a person would be safe...”
I can think of another.
I would agree that no harm can come to me unless God’s allows it, but I do not think that also means that God intends for all evil to occur. It it were so, man could not reasonably be held responsible for his actions; and I do not believe for a second that position can be supported by the Bible.
At church his guard would be down and he would not have security with him as he probably would going to the abortion clinic. Also, Tiller was an usher and all he would have to do is sit next to the aisle and Tiller would walk right up to him.
That's not the way it works. He's either sane, or he's insane. Insanity is going to be virtually impossible to prove as he fled the seen. Fleeing the seen is prima fascia evidence of consciousness of guilt.
His only hope is to plead to a second degree or manslaughter charge. But, if it goes to trial, I can promise you it will be first degree murder. Here's the law and minimums in Kansas...
Second Degree Murder
Second degree murder is an intentional killing that was not premeditated. Second degree murder can also be charged in instances where the killing was unintentional but reckless under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life.
The sentencing guidelines provide a range of sentence from a minimum of 147 months imprisonment to a maximum prison term of 653 months on an intentional killing, and a range of 109 months to a maximum of 493 months on an unintentional but reckless killing.
Voluntary Manslaughter is the intentional killing of a human being upon a sudden quarrel or in the heat of passion or upon the unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force.
The sentencing guidelines provide a range of sentence from a minimum of 55 months imprisonment to a maximum prison term of 247 months.
Too bad the guy who shot the abortionist, did not stick around and face the music. Now he is just another coward deserving of the death penalty himself.
I’ve seen it several times. It’s one of those movies that is hard to turn off when you start watching it. His morals were certainly suspect, but he was a great man for what he did for Afganistan and the defeat of the Soviet Union in both Afganistan and ultimately the Cold War.
Charlie Wilson is a great example of how God can use imperfect men to do his will.
They should fear that. How many abortionists will there be if pro-lifers start taking the law into their own hands.
“This could hurt the Pro-life movement. scratch that, it WILL hurt the pro-life movement.”
NOT if we frame the debate the way the Democrat-Worshipping media would.
We simply describe Tiller’s death as:
“A VERY Late-Term Abortion in the 272nd Tri-mester.
YOU wouldn’t stand against ABORTION, would you, Ms. Gay Network Segment Producer? That would be VERY un-PC, you know!”
How about people unrelated to you in immediate threat of life?
The St. Paul Area(MN) Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America has among its three main goals this decade “to ensure that no person is forced to live in poverty.’’
this sounds to me like politicing to me. another way of saying, if the church can’t take care of all the poor, we’ll make sure the government does via confiscating your money,whether you’re religious or not.
The ELCA in MN were also some of the main opponents in lawsuits against concealed carry laws passing in MN.
The gun-hating Brady Bunch is squealing with glee. They’ve been praying for a highly visible shooting so they could use the corpse as a soapbox to stand on and speechify, and now they have one.
This was the wrong action for anyone to take. Dr Tiller deserved the right to repent and this has been violently taken from him.
Violence is not always the answer to every situation. This was not a “kill or be killed” scenario.
I hope we get to hear the reason for the shooting.
I believe that many human leaders in the past have allowed great evils to happen, and that because they saw a greater good that would result.
One example, of course, is Truman’s atomic bombing of Japan.
Another example, against his own people, is Churchill’s not warning known bombing sites in England, because he did not wish to reveal the Axis code had been broken.
This work is proceeding exactly as it should. God is in control, AND men are responsible for their own acts, AND it will all work out for the good.
Don’t you believe that???
No, that is simply a poor excuse for a person who is unable to construct a salient social-political argument is difficult times.
Attorney Dan Monnat said Tiller, one of the nation's most visible and strident advocates for abortion rights, was shot as he served as an usher during morning services at Reformation Lutheran Church. Monnat said Tiller's wife, Jeanne, was in the choir at the time of the shooting.
If the killer did this solely because of Tiller's abortion business why isn't it morally justified?
If in “immediate danger” and if I were proximate to that danger, then sure.
At some point, though, we cross into the responsibility of the security force (whether police or military) who also have a moral justification when killing for truly necessary security concerns.
Voluntary manslaughter is a distinct possibility. Second degree murder would be much more difficult.
What is the KS definition of involuntary manslaughter?
We do not need to hear the reason for the shooting.
Instead, the jury simply needs to know the facts of who pulled the trigger, find the person or persons guilty and sentence them to death.
Because the murderer was not in proximate relationship to an immediate murder taking place.
In fact, Tiller was at church.
Let’s not overlook, however, that this could be an aggrieved family member of a Tiller victim. No one has id’d the murderer as of yet.
Look for Bill O’Reilly to take a lot of heat. Just a prediction.
Looks like the shooter drove to the church with the intent of killing a human being.
That is a death penalty case.
Because vigilante justice IS NOT morally justified.
If I know a woman who is planning to abort her baby, it is my moral duty to try to stop her. However, if she persists, I do not have the moral right to follow her to the abortuary and kill her or the abortionist.
A man with Operation Rescue in KS was interviewed and told the reporter he didn’t know the perp “based on the name” she (the reporter) had given him, so the name is out there somewhere.
There are two statutes dealing with involuntary manslaughter. The first defines involuntary manslaughter as the unintentional killing of a human being, committed recklessly or in the commission of a felony other than an inherently dangerous felony, or during the commission of a misdemeanor enacted for the protection of human life. Involuntary manslaughter charges can also be brought in circumstances where a death occurs during the commission of a lawful act in an unlawful manner.
The sentencing guidelines provide for a range of sentence from 31 months to a maximum prison term of 136 months.
The second statute defines involuntary manslaughter as the unintentional killing of a human being committed while a person was operating a vehicle under the influence of alcohol, drugs or both.
The sentencing guidelines provide for a range of sentence from 38 months to a maximum prison term of 172 months.
I don’t look at the decisions of Truman and Churchill as being anything close to being evil. War requires difficult decisions about life and death.
In the case of Tiller, and while I wouldn’t have killed him, I think one could make the argument that his killer is responsible and God can make it work for good. Since I cannot know the full mind of God, I will not speculate.
I believe that God can use ANYTHING for His purpose even when man cannot see it or understand it. After all, He is God.
Yes, I meant pro-lifers. I went back to see if I could edit but couldnt find a way.
And I agree with you regarding when MSM denouncers pro-abortionists.
Because, it was not the shooter's responsibility to determine what is a morally justified killing.
If that were the case, pro-lifers could freely murder not only abortion doctors, but also doctors who prescribe birth control pills.
For that matter, animal rights activists could freely murder people who eat meat believing it is morally justified.
Did you read the definition of voluntary manslaughter and the associated penalty in Post #106?
Tiller was an ELCA Lutheran.
This looks to be a death penalty case.
How many babies has Tiller killed?
Watch out. The tut-tut’ers will be after you in a minute....saying those terrible things about the late Dr. Tiller.....
50 million. One of them might have found a cure for cancer...one of them might have become President, at least some of them would have made a huge difference. They were murdered by the one person nature designated to be their ultimate protector - their mother.
It’s beyond tragedy... beyond travesty.
Pharaoh hardened his heart.
Pharaoh hardened his heart.
Pharaoh hardened his heart.
God hardened Pharaohs heart.
Yes, I, too, believe can can use anything for His purpose, but I do not think God is surprised by anything.
He knows everything that ever will be.
If He knows it ahead of time, then He has permitted it. For His own purposes, but I’m not going to come down on the side of a less than omniscient God.
"immediate" is also a matter of perception. Monday morning could be "immediate" in the mind of the killer.
My first thought when hearing of this was to look for justified killing in Scripture. The first thing I found was Exodus 21:22-23. I read that as indicating life for life if a baby is killed.
How about stopping “open and notorious” serial killers who are being ignored by the “security force”?
Forgive me but doesn’t that make the score 60,000 to one?
As are Annette Benning and Warren Beatty. Also, the woman who played the female commander on Star Trek Voyager (her name escapes me)
Plus, abortion is the reason we now have a flood of illegal immigration.
Looks to me like voluntary manslaughter is the appropriate charge. If the prosecutor doesn’t include voluntary manslaughter as a lesser alternative, s/he is likely to not get a conviction on a second degree murder and then the guy could walk, which I don’t think would be such a bad result.
Prosecutor will have to be very careful on this one since the pro-aborts will want second degree murder to be the charge without the alternative of voluntary manslaughter. Over reaching could benefit the defendant.