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Tiller's Killing: Necessary... But Unlawful
Commonweal Review Magazine ^ | June 3, 2009, 8:07 am | David Gibson

Posted on 06/03/2009 11:13:53 AM PDT by lewisglad

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1 posted on 06/03/2009 11:13:54 AM PDT by lewisglad
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To: lewisglad

I think RR Reno is right, actually; all of the other conditions are satisfied, except that it should have been a legitimate authority that did it. And then we come up against that famous question: what happens when the laws and/or the authorities are unjust or wrong?

Theoretically, we should change the laws. But what about a situation where all legitimate and non-violent attempts to change those laws are stymied by the authorities or even by the evil person himself?


2 posted on 06/03/2009 11:28:31 AM PDT by livius
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To: lewisglad
Interesting theological question.

Most would agree that when man's law directly contradicts God's law, God's directives must prevail. For example, thousands of Christians were martyred because they refused to worship the Roman emperor. It is almost universally accepted that these people did the right thing; in fact, many have been canonized as saints.

Other Christians have been praised for refusing to take the lives of others, or their property, or spread anti-Christian propaganda, etc. as mandated by law.

But what about stopping a serial killer who has taken more than 60,000 lives? How do you factor in the 15-20 babies who will not be killed today by this monster -- and the same number every day now on?

Where do you draw the line between Biblically justified and unjustified under these circumstances?

3 posted on 06/03/2009 11:31:34 AM PDT by Zakeet (Obama: Always wrong, never in doubt.)
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To: lewisglad
I cry no tears for Mr. Tiller. But consider the following:

1. The increased pressure (i.e., persecution) of nonviolent pro-life associations -- this killing has and will increase the oversight of pro-life groups ad anti-prolife measures because it is so easy for abortion proponents to label every member of the pro-life community nutjob-extremists!

2. The man who killed Tiller has now deprived God of the opportunity to turn Tiller around and use him for the cause. Two contrary examples where God worked his miracles would be the conversion of Dr. Bernard Nathanson to the pro-life side. Nathanson was a New York abortionist and founder of the predecessor organization of NARAL. Second example -- Norma Jean McCorvey (Jane Roe of Roe v. Wade). If God can convert these two, and St. Paul, who ordered and oversaw the martyrdom of St. Stephen, he can certainly turn a two-bit abortion doctor given the right circumstances. Now, we will never know.

3. You have deprive a man of the opportunity to repent and amend his life (not that he would, but he could.

In sum, Tiller may be gone, but at what cost?

4 posted on 06/03/2009 11:36:34 AM PDT by CWW (Palin & Jindal in 2012!!)
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To: CWW

This incident DOES “step it up a notch”...

Mayhap the pols and the docs will think twice about thwarting the political and legal means to stop their homicide?


5 posted on 06/03/2009 11:38:28 AM PDT by MrB (Go Galt now, save Bowman for later)
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To: Zakeet

I would go with the good ol’ Ten Commandments... thou shalt not kill


6 posted on 06/03/2009 11:54:24 AM PDT by lewisglad
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To: CWW

Exactly, Roeder deprived Tiller of the opportunity to repent for a lifetime of evil crimes against humanity.


7 posted on 06/03/2009 11:55:57 AM PDT by lewisglad
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To: livius

I think the article has it right, non-violence/self defense is the only way. Otherise the other side wins


8 posted on 06/03/2009 12:00:27 PM PDT by lewisglad
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To: livius

Exactly.I dont remember the people voting to legalize abortion on demand.Yet we are supposed to uphold laws passed by activist judges?KMA ruling class.


9 posted on 06/03/2009 12:00:55 PM PDT by HANG THE EXPENSE (Life is tough.It's even tougher when you're stupid.)
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To: CWW
Good post. Given the disruption Tiller's shooting is likely to cause the pro-life movement, consider the following hypothetical:

Suppose that Roeder had been entirely stable, lucid, sane and sober, and had been directed by a "voice" to slay Tiller. In your estimation, would that "voice" have been more likely that of God, or the devil....?

My personal suspicion would be the latter...

10 posted on 06/03/2009 12:06:10 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: lewisglad
...and the first commenter on Reno’s thread pressed him to go further, asking how Reno’s argument would apply to Bonhoeffer or the Nazi resistance. Good question.

That is a very good question.

11 posted on 06/03/2009 12:12:51 PM PDT by TigersEye (Cloward-Piven Strategy)
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To: TigersEye

I would say violence would most definitely be justified against the Nazi’s in self defense.


12 posted on 06/03/2009 12:14:32 PM PDT by lewisglad
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To: lewisglad
How would you stop Tiller from killing dozens of babies every day?

IRC Pro-Life folks have served jail time and been hit with large fines from trying the “talk & non-violence” route. States have tried to pass laws limiting abortion, only to have them overturned by murderous judges.

If talk, protest and legislation will not stop the killing of babies, just how to you propose it be done?

They are babies and their killing must be stopped. When that killing is compounded by being mass killings and that for profit, there is an even greater imperative to stop it.

How would you do this?

13 posted on 06/03/2009 12:27:07 PM PDT by BwanaNdege (Semper Fi)
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To: lewisglad

Would you include German citizens in that justification? German citizens who were not targeted by the Nazis?


14 posted on 06/03/2009 12:27:46 PM PDT by TigersEye (Cloward-Piven Strategy)
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To: TigersEye

I was mainly thinking of American laws that give a homeowner right to shoot if his/her person is in danger or they are in their house and theatened by an intruder


15 posted on 06/03/2009 12:29:42 PM PDT by lewisglad
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To: lewisglad

So, no German citizen would have been justified in fighting the Nazi regime then?


16 posted on 06/03/2009 12:32:07 PM PDT by TigersEye (Cloward-Piven Strategy)
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To: BwanaNdege

Laws were passed, ignored, broken, and enforcement officials (ks AG) covered it up.

Another law to require enforcement of the first law was passed, and vetoed by a governor on the take.

Tiller was finally taken to court, and the prosecution bungled it, Tiller got off without penalty, and couldn’t be tried for the same offense again.

There is a continuum where people will act outside of the law when they see the law to be inadequate to stop an injustice. Some will act sooner, some at a time when the thwarting of the law becomes more egregious. Roeder was one that acted earlier.


17 posted on 06/03/2009 12:34:34 PM PDT by MrB (Go Galt now, save Bowman for later)
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To: lewisglad

I would go with the good ol’ Ten Commandments... thou shalt not kill
*****************************************************
The actual commandment is “murder” , killing is allowed ... most bibles however have the erroneous translation.


18 posted on 06/03/2009 1:40:37 PM PDT by Neidermeyer
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To: MrB
There is a continuum where people will act outside of the law when they see the law to be inadequate to stop an injustice. Some will act sooner, some at a time when the thwarting of the law becomes more egregious. Roeder was one that acted earlier.

And that my friend is the real issue and has the liberals running scared. Their real corruption (i.e. rigged system) has been exposed and they darn well know it. So they will play pin the tail on the donkey and target the pro-life organizations (or even Bill O'Reilly) as being responsible.

Meanwhile no coverage of the murder of the soldier killed by a home-grown Muslim terrorist on American soil. Doesn't fit their agenda I suppose.

19 posted on 06/03/2009 1:42:27 PM PDT by pray4liberty (http://www.foundersvalues.com/)
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To: Neidermeyer
The actual commandment is “murder”

A Jewish friend told me the commandment is "Thou Shalt Not Shed Innocent Blood".

Judas referred to it when he betrayed Christ.

20 posted on 06/03/2009 1:43:42 PM PDT by pray4liberty (http://www.foundersvalues.com/)
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To: CWW

How many young lives will be spared the good Dr. Tiller’s crematorium?

What’s the difference between bashing the kids skull in the minute he lands in Dr. Tiller’s arms, and bashing the kids skull in while inside the womb?

Life’s not an inalienable right if your mom is in a position to alienate it.


21 posted on 06/03/2009 1:47:16 PM PDT by RinaseaofDs
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To: lewisglad

“Thou shalt not COMMIT MURDER.”

Killing can be necessary; murder is NEVER needful.


22 posted on 06/03/2009 2:55:43 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
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To: lewisglad
What about all the women who requested the abortions?

Should they be killed too?

23 posted on 06/03/2009 2:57:37 PM PDT by humblegunner
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To: humblegunner

Late term abortions which was Tiller’s specialty?

Perhaps they should be.


24 posted on 06/03/2009 2:59:45 PM PDT by Eaker (The Two Loudest Sounds in the World.....Bang When it should have been Click and the Reverse.)
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To: pray4liberty

That is the best way to put it... and surely a baby’s is the most innocent blood of all.


25 posted on 06/03/2009 2:59:51 PM PDT by dcwusmc (We need to make government so small that it can be drowned in a bathtub.)
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To: livius
Great post, needs a little clarification.

Theoretically, we should change the laws. But what about a situation where all legitimate and non-violent attempts to change those laws are stymied by the paid-off, corrupt authorities or even by the evil person himself?

26 posted on 06/03/2009 3:29:44 PM PDT by pray4liberty (http://www.foundersvalues.com/)
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To: humblegunner

The women procuring abortions should at very least be subject to a very massive fine.

There has to be such a deterrent in place for abortions to be stopped.


27 posted on 06/03/2009 3:40:36 PM PDT by TheFourthMagi
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To: RinaseaofDs
Life’s not an inalienable right if your mom is in a position to alienate it.

A million moms a year choose to kill baby daughters and baby sons by abortion.

28 posted on 06/03/2009 3:42:14 PM PDT by TheFourthMagi
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To: lewisglad

illegal, but not necessarily unjust.


29 posted on 06/03/2009 3:54:28 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand
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To: pray4liberty

Very well could be ,, I don’t know anyone that is fluent in Aramaic , however the gist of both the translation your Jewish friend provided and mine is close enough.


30 posted on 06/03/2009 3:56:02 PM PDT by Neidermeyer
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To: lewisglad
Exactly, Roeder deprived Tiller of the opportunity to repent for a lifetime of evil crimes against humanity.

Maybe so, but God always warns before punishment. God sent Dr. Alveda King to talk some sense into George Tiller. Did no good. George Tiller was in church the day he died. He had plenty of opportunity to rethink his crimes against humanity, but he must not have thought them so evil to continue his business and give his apostate church the blood money for years and years.

He even baptized the babies he killed and had the parents posing for one last picture with the corpse.

31 posted on 06/03/2009 3:56:16 PM PDT by pray4liberty (http://www.foundersvalues.com/)
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To: lewisglad

Jesus would slap the living shit out of this guy.


32 posted on 06/03/2009 3:56:21 PM PDT by nonliberal (Graduate: Curtis E. LeMay School of International Relations)
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To: nonliberal
Jesus would slap the living shit out of this guy.

I think he'd speak and cast the demons out.

33 posted on 06/03/2009 4:01:42 PM PDT by pray4liberty (http://www.foundersvalues.com/)
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To: lewisglad
...and it would have to be an act of self-defense that does not “violate the principle of legitimate authority” by being premeditated and calculated violence, as Tiller’s killing was.

The law also provides for the defense of an innocent third party. Would shooting Tiller "in flagrante delicto" suffice?

34 posted on 06/03/2009 4:16:53 PM PDT by nonsporting
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To: Zakeet
But what about stopping a serial killer who has taken more than 60,000 lives? How do you factor in the 15-20 babies who will not be killed today by this monster -- and the same number every day now on?

That's the dog that doesn't hunt. Tiller already flew in docs who operated in his absence. It's already been reported that business will go on at the clinic with these same docs just getting more hours. Roeder didn't save any lives, he just took one.

35 posted on 06/03/2009 4:22:14 PM PDT by Melas
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Comment #36 Removed by Moderator

To: Melas; Zakeet
Tiller’s family said Tuesday there are no immediate plans to reopen the clinic, one of the few in the country to perform late-term abortions.

“The family’s hope is that the valuable work of Dr. Tiller will be able to continue, but there have been no final decisions made about the long-term plans for the medical practice,” said a statement released by Tiller’s attorneys, Dan Monnat and Lee Thompson, on behalf of Jeanne Tiller and the Tiller family.

“No patients are being scheduled at this time,” according to the statement. “The Tiller family’s focus, of course, is to determine what is in the best interests of the employees and the patients.”


37 posted on 06/03/2009 4:59:57 PM PDT by TigersEye (Cloward-Piven Strategy)
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To: humblegunner

Late term are babies that would live outside the womb. Why did these monsters wait until so late?

Late term abortion is no doubt murder.


38 posted on 06/03/2009 5:05:10 PM PDT by Eaker (The Two Loudest Sounds in the World.....Bang When it should have been Click and the Reverse.)
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To: humblegunner

You should read Beethoven’s biography sometime - and contrast his miserable life with his magnificent music.

I do not agree that the women procuring these abominations should be killed, although I’m not beyond wondering if sterilization is warranted - especially for repeat customers.


39 posted on 06/03/2009 5:06:58 PM PDT by MortMan (Power without responsibility-the prerogative of the harlot throughout the ages. - Rudyard Kipling)
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To: livius; SeattleBruce; Alamo-Girl; wmfights; P-Marlowe; metmom; YHAOS; hosepipe; betty boop; ...
I think RR Reno is right, actually; all of the other conditions are satisfied, except that it should have been a legitimate authority that did it.

What Tiller was doing was illegal under Kansas law, and yet the Kansas authorities were bribed by Tiller and for the price of 30 pieces of silver, looked the other way while Tiller practiced his butchery on innocent children.

If the legitimate authority had done its job, Tiller would be alive (and rotting in prison) today.

40 posted on 06/03/2009 7:37:48 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Neidermeyer

My friend, YHWH bless him, is a messianic Jewish scholar, well versed in the old texts.


41 posted on 06/03/2009 7:52:36 PM PDT by pray4liberty (http://www.foundersvalues.com/)
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To: humblegunner; wagglebee; little jeremiah; P-Marlowe; Alamo-Girl; wmfights; YHAOS; hosepipe; ...
An innocent child, aborted. Goes straight into the arms of Jesus, without sin. Right?

An unwanted child, raised without love in an orphanage or worse, endures a life of addiction and hate and sin and crime and pain.

As a result, the child's soul is forfeit. A sinner most foul.

The child grows and sins, as a result of the sad circumstances. And is damned.

Which would you prefer?

just...... wow......

What are you doing on FR?

42 posted on 06/03/2009 8:39:51 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

He won’t comprehend why you are shocked by that completely specious analogy. The unregenerate mind cannot grasp the things of God.


43 posted on 06/03/2009 8:44:47 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: P-Marlowe

Good point. Thank you for your insights, dear brother in Christ!


44 posted on 06/03/2009 8:45:47 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: metmom

Jeepers...


45 posted on 06/03/2009 8:46:53 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: humblegunner

Women who choose to have abortions have taken out a contract to have their babies murdered. They have essentially hired a hit man to kill their babies.

Now if anyone contracts to murder another human being, that person is considered complicate in the crime of murder and is just as guilty of it as the murderer.

The penalty for murder should be leveled at everyone involved who takes deliberate action to kill another human being.


46 posted on 06/03/2009 8:51:22 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

I don’t like murder. However I do believe that things happen for a reason. Tiller knew the risks as he had been shot before. I am not sad he is gone but I wish it had been a natural death.


47 posted on 06/03/2009 8:57:39 PM PDT by pandoraou812 (elected officials should be required to pass drug, alcohol & dementia testing)
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To: pandoraou812
I am not sad he is gone but I wish it had been a natural death.

I'd have been happy with a lightning bolt from the sky. Wouldn't that have freaked them out?

48 posted on 06/03/2009 9:02:51 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

Lmao! I just hate the bs that goes with his murder, had a lighting bolt hit him in Church then that would have freaked many people out for sure. Would that have been called an act of God? Or nature?


49 posted on 06/03/2009 9:12:09 PM PDT by pandoraou812 (elected officials should be required to pass drug, alcohol & dementia testing)
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To: lewisglad
"But it is certainly obvious that his killer was acting as the law unto himself. He arrogated to himself the roles of jury, judge, and executioner. He violated the principle of legitimate authority."

Examining only the act committed by Tiller the baby killer's killer (and not the very negative impact it will have on the pro-life movement), the above is what I find bothersome. But then I ask, as the author mentions and I quote below, what if Tiller had been Hitler or any one of the many known mass murderers....wait he was.

"That strikes me as far too close to justification, as others would argue that unjust laws shouldn’t stop us. With their redesigned site, the First Things blog now allows comments, and the first commenter on Reno’s thread pressed him to go further, asking how Reno’s argument would apply to Bonhoeffer or the Nazi resistance. Good question."

50 posted on 06/03/2009 11:15:04 PM PDT by TAdams8591 (Bush's recession, Obama's depression.)
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