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Tiller's Killing: Necessary... But Unlawful
Commonweal Review Magazine ^ | June 3, 2009, 8:07 am | David Gibson

Posted on 06/03/2009 11:13:53 AM PDT by lewisglad

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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Serendipity.

I think you meant to say... DIVINE PROVIDENCE. :-)

Thanks

151 posted on 06/04/2009 9:28:10 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

LOLOL!


152 posted on 06/04/2009 9:31:37 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: hocndoc

Interesting questions but I don’t see how they relate to the hypothetical point I was making.


153 posted on 06/04/2009 9:34:41 PM PDT by TigersEye (Cloward-Piven Strategy)
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To: P-Marlowe; xzins; blue-duncan
CALVIN ON JEREMIAH 18
154 posted on 06/04/2009 9:55:04 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: humblegunner

Good move, HG.

(By the way, your original view doesn’t leave much leeway for the Lord’s work in each person’s life. He’s much more likely to turn a live sinner into a - sometimes reluctant - prophet or preacher than a dead innocent.

He is the Creator and has been known to resurrect people. But that’s rare.)


155 posted on 06/05/2009 12:03:16 AM PDT by hocndoc (http://www.LifeEthics.org (I've got a mustard seed and I'm not afraid to use it.))
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Greeting from the great gun toting state of Texas.


156 posted on 06/05/2009 8:25:57 AM PDT by Lord_Calvinus
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To: P-Marlowe; humblegunner; xzins
I've been accused of being a Calvinist. I think wagglebee may have accused me of that on one or two occasions.

No, I don't think I ever accused you of being a Calvinist.

I'm pretty sure that I did call you a "Jack Chick comic book reading snake handler" (we're not in the Religion Forum, so I can say Jack Chick all I want) once or twice. :-)

157 posted on 06/05/2009 1:41:56 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: xzins

Abortion is murder at some point. Late term abortion definitely is. And Roe vs. Wade is terrible law. But shooting an unarmed man in church in the name of life doesn’t help the cause at all.

Public opinion had turned our way. Hopefully, the public will recognize it as the abberation that it is. But comments supporting it from pro-lifers endanger any gains the pro-life movement has made.


158 posted on 06/05/2009 3:23:39 PM PDT by Clintonfatigued (The McCain/Palin ticket was like a Kangaroo, stronger on the bottom than at the top)
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To: Clintonfatigued; P-Marlowe
Late term abortion definitely is. And Roe vs. Wade is terrible law.

Yet, Roe v. Wade is declared "stare decisis". It is settled law that cannot be assailed is how it is presented. And it was not enacted by legislature, but was imposed by judicial fiat.

It is a usurpation, a disenfranchisement, and the seeds of violent opposition lie in that very fact.

159 posted on 06/05/2009 3:44:44 PM PDT by xzins (Chaplain Says: Jesus befriends those who seek His help.)
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To: Zakeet; lewisglad
Where do you draw the line between Biblically justified and unjustified under these circumstances?

I am reminded of Johnathan Edwards sermon. His text was the following:

Christians need to wait upon the Lord. We don't always see justice, but in due time justice will be given.

160 posted on 06/05/2009 4:18:51 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: samiam1972
Thanks for the ping! I was enjoying this thread until everyone got all nicey, nicey. Sheesh!

You act as if you don't think I know how to be nice!

161 posted on 06/05/2009 5:50:41 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: P-Marlowe
Clintonfatigued: “Also, this murder does not do benefit the pro-life cause in any way.”

P-Marlowe: “There have been no late term abortions in Kansas since 5/31/09. Who are you going to thank for that?

Bruce: This isn't just about that one (good) result. It's about the fact that this assassination, as you're want to call it P-Marlowe, will not help reduce the mass of abortions in this nation. What now? And how then does this help the pro-life cause generally - other than in that one specific issue.

Setting aside the moral issues (which we can't really do - can we?), how does this help strategically to reduce the masses of abortions?

Much more important than this red herring of Roeder are the recent advances in those that identify themselves as pro-life vs. pro-choice - for the first time higher pro-life (51%) then pro-choice, since 1995. And this result at a time when the pro-aborts are in charge of ‘govuhnmen’ in this country. How much higher would that number be if the question were pro-life or pro-abortion?

Now, how does Roeder’s act support that winning of hearts and minds and the ultimate changing of laws and reduction of the mass of abortions?

IMHO, it does not. And you could certainly make the case that it damages this ultimately important cause. Roeder has distracted us from advancing along many fronts (for the time being) - I think we need to drop Roeder as some kind of ‘rally cry’ and get back to the truth as our rally cry - which we have on our side!! That does not mean we cannot/won't defend ourselves against the unfair characterizations of the pro-life movement in the enemedia. Other than to pray for Roeder, the pro-life movement doesn't owe anything to him.

162 posted on 06/06/2009 1:11:37 PM PDT by SeattleBruce (God, Family, Country and the Tea Party! Take America Back! [I hate the BIGOTRY in the enemedia.])
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To: SeattleBruce; Clintonfatigued; Alamo-Girl; xzins; betty boop; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg
Now, how does Roeder’s act support that winning of hearts and minds and the ultimate changing of laws and reduction of the mass of abortions?

What Tiller was doing was against the laws of the State of Kansas.

The people of Kansas voted and passed a law which prohibited late term abortions except where there was a :grave threat to the physical health of the mother." That would basically prohibit nearly all late term abortions. But it didn't slow down Tiller's abortion mill at all.

Changing the hearts of the Kansas citizens and passing the laws didn't stop the killing.

Did it?

There have been no late term abortions in Kansas since 5/31/09.

Who are you going to thank for that?

163 posted on 06/06/2009 1:23:03 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe; Clintonfatigued; Alamo-Girl; xzins; betty boop; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg

Bruce: We have laws for reasons - to give meaning and definition to the social contract among us.

P-M: “Changing the hearts of the Kansas citizens and passing the laws didn’t stop the killing. Did it?”

Bruce: Are you saying the laws are meaningless when it comes to abortion?

Are you saying we shouldn’t rather advocate for laws to be enforced - when they’re not?

P-Marlowe, are we to assume that you advocate anarchy in the abortion arena, as preferred to forcefully pushing legally, politically, morally and spiritually for just laws, and for those laws to be enforced?


164 posted on 06/06/2009 2:04:56 PM PDT by SeattleBruce (God, Family, Country and the Tea Party! Take America Back! [I hate the BIGOTRY in the enemedia.])
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To: SeattleBruce

“P-Marlowe, are we to assume that you advocate anarchy in the abortion arena, as preferred to forcefully pushing legally, politically, morally and spiritually for just laws, and for those laws to be enforced?”

Or just where do you draw that anarchy could be more effective line - at the (arbitrary) beginning of the 3rd trimester?


165 posted on 06/06/2009 2:07:18 PM PDT by SeattleBruce (God, Family, Country and the Tea Party! Take America Back! [I hate the BIGOTRY in the enemedia.])
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To: Clintonfatigued; BillyBoy; fieldmarshaldj; Joe 6-pack; metmom

Very sticky situation. Even while not condoning murder it’s clear many people are unable to be troubled by this man’s death given what he got rich doing.


166 posted on 06/06/2009 3:25:44 PM PDT by Impy (RED=COMMUNIST, NOT REPUBLICAN)
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To: Impy

That’s the position I’m in.


167 posted on 06/06/2009 3:43:40 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: SeattleBruce; P-Marlowe; Clintonfatigued; Alamo-Girl; xzins; betty boop; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg
Bruce: Are you saying the laws are meaningless when it comes to abortion? Are you saying we shouldn’t rather advocate for laws to be enforced - when they’re not?

The laws are meaningless in the abortion arena as they are not enforced.

SB, are you saying that people haven't been advocating for them to be enforced?

Bruce, why do you keep playing the devil's advocate?

168 posted on 06/06/2009 3:47:34 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
MM: The laws are meaningless in the abortion arena as they are not enforced. If they are meaningless there, do they have meaning anywhere? Is it time to overthrow this government - if such is the case? SB, are you saying that people haven't been advocating for them to be enforced? Not at all, we have and we must continue to do so! Bruce, why do you keep playing the devil's advocate? I'm trying to figure out where people who are saying things like, 'I don't support killing abortionists, but I'm glad Tiller's gone' really stand on the implications of what they're saying. Or don't you think there are implications to such comments? I'm certainly not 'playing' - this is not a game - that's for sure.
169 posted on 06/06/2009 4:02:56 PM PDT by SeattleBruce (God, Family, Country and the Tea Party! Take America Back! [I hate the BIGOTRY in the enemedia.])
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To: SeattleBruce; metmom
Oops - repost with the correct tags...

MM: The laws are meaningless in the abortion arena as they are not enforced.

If they are meaningless there, do they have meaning anywhere? Is it time to overthrow this government - if such is the case?

SB, are you saying that people haven't been advocating for them to be enforced?

Not at all, we have and we must continue to do so!

Bruce, why do you keep playing the devil's advocate?

I'm trying to figure out where people who are saying things like, 'I don't support killing abortionists, but I'm glad Tiller's gone' really stand on the implications of what they're saying. Or don't you think there are implications to such comments? I'm certainly not 'playing' - this is not a game - that's for sure.
170 posted on 06/06/2009 4:06:02 PM PDT by SeattleBruce (God, Family, Country and the Tea Party! Take America Back! [I hate the BIGOTRY in the enemedia.])
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To: SeattleBruce; metmom

I’m trying to figure out where people who are saying things like, ‘I don’t support killing abortionists, but I’m glad Tiller’s gone’ really stand on the implications of what they’re saying. Or don’t you think there are implications to such comments?
+++++++++++++

Metmom, I’m not sure if you personally have said anything like that - although there is definitely a side to this debate that is saying something just like that.


171 posted on 06/06/2009 4:08:16 PM PDT by SeattleBruce (God, Family, Country and the Tea Party! Take America Back! [I hate the BIGOTRY in the enemedia.])
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To: lewisglad

I’ve been making this exact same argument, based on just war theory, for the past several days! Very cool to see a well-respected scholar and expert confirms my analysis!


172 posted on 06/06/2009 4:14:46 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: SeattleBruce
P-Marlowe, are we to assume that you advocate anarchy in the abortion arena, as preferred to forcefully pushing legally, politically, morally and spiritually for just laws, and for those laws to be enforced?

No.

173 posted on 06/06/2009 4:44:47 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe; metmom
Thank you both for sharing your insights!
174 posted on 06/06/2009 8:44:47 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: SeattleBruce; P-Marlowe; metmom; betty boop
Are you saying the laws are meaningless when it comes to abortion?

When a law, any law, is ignored - or enforced unequally - unrest or disobedience is understandable.

And yes, I would say that whereas enforcement of the Supreme Court decision to allow abortion has been consistent - enforcement of laws to control abortion has been spotty at best.

That is a usurpation of power.

And although the public is notoriously complacent, eventually it will say "enough."

175 posted on 06/06/2009 8:55:59 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; SeattleBruce; P-Marlowe; metmom; betty boop; xzins
And although the public is notoriously complacent, eventually it will say "enough."

I sincerely hope so.

I pray that one or more of the babies who were scheduled for execution on 6/1/09 will grow up to lead America back towards God.

I hope and pray that the next Jonathan Edwards was spared the knife and will one day be the catalyst for another true Great Awakening. God knows we need it.

Tiller's worshipers are today praising the fact that heaven will be a better place because George Tiller is now there.

The silence of the Pro-life movement leaders (whoever they are) to that blasphemy is deafening.

176 posted on 06/06/2009 9:06:37 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe; SeattleBruce; betty boop; xzins; metmom
Tiller's worshipers are today praising the fact that heaven will be a better place because George Tiller is now there.

That is disturbing on many levels.

For one thing, to think that anyone could make heaven a better place is evidence that the person making the claim elevates that person above God. There is only One Great Commandment:

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment. – Matthew 22:37-38

And of all people to worship above God ... Tiller? Who bragged about killing some 60,000 unborn children? Who made a profit of it? Who offered pictures of mothers posing with their freshly killed children?

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! - Isaiah 5:20

Even if a person does not have "ears to hear" - the plain meaning of God's words can't be missed by a healthy, rational mind.

Thou shalt not kill. - Exodus 20:13

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. - Matthew 5:21-22

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea. - Matthew 18:6

betty boop has often written of a disease of the spirit - like mental illness only much worse. This is below even the natural state of a man.

Maranatha, Jesus!!!

177 posted on 06/06/2009 9:36:00 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
That is disturbing on many levels.

I stopped reading after that statement. My wife was reading it out loud and apparently that was not the most blasphemous statement made at the funeral. The funeral service basically mocked God and made a hero out of perhaps the worst serial murderer in the history of the United States.

God called him to stand before him on 5/31/09. I sincerely doubt that heaven will be blessed by his presence. He will stand before God. I do not believe that he will say to George Tiller, "Well done, good and faithful servant." I do believe however that after a few centuries basking in the coal fires of hell, he will be "well done". But the flames will NEVER stop. I guess I should feel sorry for him. Maybe later. Not now.

178 posted on 06/06/2009 9:45:31 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe; Alamo-Girl

There are not many people I will not feel sorry for when they die and find themselves in hell.

Tiller is one.

If someone had been caught dismembering 60,000 two year olds for hire, I suspect that even many of the most hard core anti-death penalty crowd would have second thoughts.

But to paint him as a martyr like they have makes me wonder if we’ve gotten past the *as it was in the days of Noah* stage.

Maranatha, Jesus!!! Is right.....


179 posted on 06/06/2009 9:58:24 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: P-Marlowe
The funeral service basically mocked God and made a hero out of perhaps the worst serial murderer in the history of the United States.

I couldn't read any further either. Jeepers...


180 posted on 06/06/2009 10:26:31 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: metmom
But to paint him as a martyr like they have makes me wonder if we’ve gotten past the *as it was in the days of Noah* stage.

This Scripture describes our present world perfectly, IMHO:

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. – 2 Timothy 3:1-5

It's time.

Maranatha, Jesus!!!

181 posted on 06/06/2009 10:33:25 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: P-Marlowe
"Tiller's worshipers are today praising the fact that heaven will be a better place because George Tiller is now there."
********

They have no say in the matter. God is sovereign, and we must let God be Sovereign.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"The silence of the Pro-life movement leaders (whoever they are) to that blasphemy is deafening."
*********

Pro-life leaders, and there are many, are not allowing Roeder nor the Tiller klan to define who they are and the principles they adhere to. Truth and God are on the side of the pro-life movement. For pro-life leaders to insert themselves into this enemedia circus would be counterproductive. The pro-aborts are all preaching to their own 'choir' - that choir of death that celebrates abortion as good and right and 'a right'. Pro-lifers should know and understand that we're winning this battle - more and more people are identifying themselves as pro-life and we need to translate this into pro-life support at the polls - not insert ouselves into some morass of a loner's making.

Roeder caused this media circus - you P-Marlowe have at least partially defended Roeder in this. Now you're calling on pro-life leaders to help unravel the mess. What Roeder did will not help reduce the great mass of abortions, nor ultimately forward the pro-life movement. While that murder of Tiller is important in and of itself, in the grand battle of Pro-Life vs. Pro-Death - it is but a blip, it is a non-sequitor. Roeder doesn't deserve anything more from us but our prayers. Do not expect pro-life leaders to lower themselves into this molasses keg to assist Roeder in this, nor to address the pro-aborts who are taking Roeder's act and making hay and sordid commentaries about heaven with it. Addressing them in this would only give more fuel to the fire.

Who do we have to thank for that?

Let the fire burn down and promote Life and Truth in a much more powerful manner than to jump in and, in any way, shape or form, attach our wagon's to Tiller or Roeder.
182 posted on 06/07/2009 10:32:37 AM PDT by SeattleBruce (God, Family, Country and the Tea Party! Take America Back! [I hate the BIGOTRY in the enemedia.])
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To: metmom

“If someone had been caught dismembering 60,000 two year olds for hire, I suspect that even many of the most hard core anti-death penalty crowd would have second thoughts.”

You know MetMom, this is an important analogy. If we really believe that abortion is murder, then our task is to convince society that the fetuses and growing babies in the womb are indeed human beings every bit as much as a two year old. We are succeeding in that for the first time since 1995 more people ID themselves as pro-life than pro-choice - 51% pro-life. This issue SHOULD cut across both parties and independents as well. Our work is laid out for us.

We must win the next generation of hearts and minds to the message of Life! Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...but the first of these is Life...


183 posted on 06/07/2009 10:47:02 AM PDT by SeattleBruce (God, Family, Country and the Tea Party! Take America Back! [I hate the BIGOTRY in the enemedia.])
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To: Alamo-Girl; P-Marlowe; SeattleBruce; wagglebee; blue-duncan; xzins; metmom
betty boop has often written of a disease of the spirit - like mental illness only much worse. This is below even the natural state of a man.

Indeed, "below the natural state of a man." In a certain way, its sufferers refuse to be men, if by being a man we mean being in the image of God. That image is the only thing that separates us from the beasts of the field.

I suppose Tiller was a beast. There is no question in my mind (based on his public statements) that he suffered from this pneumopathological disease that Plato called nosos (I'd describe this as a collapse of the self for loss of the divine pull), and Cicero aspernatio rationalis ("contempt for reason.") It is especially clear that Tiller was a person who "call[s] evil good, and good evil; that put[s] darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put[s] bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

Indeed, he seemed to be on a one-man Crusade to invert the entire moral order of Western civilization. The devaluation of Life and Truth and Justice was this Crusader's main weapon. His victims were not restricted to just the babies he killed. He was attempting to victimize society itself by undermining its moral core.

184 posted on 06/07/2009 11:26:55 AM PDT by betty boop (Tyranny is always whimsical. — Mark Steyn)
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl; P-Marlowe; SeattleBruce; blue-duncan; xzins; metmom
Tiller knew EXACTLY what he was (from 2003):

Partial-Birth Abortionist Confesses He is "Going to Hell"

The opportunity did not go unseized. A sidewalk counselor repeatedly told abortionist Tiller that God was concerned about the babies he murders through abortion. She also expressed that God was concerned about Tiller's soul. Other counselors urged Tiller to repent for the "shedding of innocent blood," and to beg Jesus to forgive his murderous sins.

With Tiller arriving at the front gate to his property, a counselor finished her plea, "You can't go to heaven unrepentant, George; you are going to hell." The abortionist George Tiller instantly quipped, "Abortion is worth going to hell for."

185 posted on 06/07/2009 11:35:39 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: betty boop
Thank you oh so very much for explaining this disease and offering your insights, dearest sister in Christ!
186 posted on 06/07/2009 11:40:52 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: wagglebee; betty boop
Thank you so much for that article and excerpt, dear brother in Christ!

The abortionist George Tiller instantly quipped, "Abortion is worth going to hell for."

This is almost as disturbing as his ghoulish offering of photographs of the mother with her freshly killed child.

187 posted on 06/07/2009 11:42:42 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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