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Plane seats, wing floating in Atlantic
Agence France-Presse via News.com.au ^ | June 07, 2009

Posted on 06/06/2009 5:29:56 PM PDT by george76

BRAZILIAN search aircraft late have spotted seats and part of a plane wing in the Atlantic where an Air France jet went down nearly a week ago, officials said after two bodies and other items were recovered from the area.

"Plane seats, part of the wing (and) various other items (were) localised,"

(Excerpt) Read more at theaustralian.news.com.au ...


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: airfrance; atlantic; aviation; flight447; hijack; plane; planecrash
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1 posted on 06/06/2009 5:29:56 PM PDT by george76
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To: george76

Have they ruled out terrorism, yet? I really haven’t been keeping tabs on this...but am remembering how LONG it took for the doomed flight over Scotland to be tied to terrorism.


2 posted on 06/06/2009 5:35:43 PM PDT by Diana in Wisconsin (Save The Earth. It's The Only Planet With Chocolate.)
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To: george76

I’m surprised that some of Obama’s brethren haven’t claimed credit for this, true or not. ;-)


3 posted on 06/06/2009 5:37:03 PM PDT by doc1019 (The invitation for salvation always requires an RSVP.)
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To: doc1019

If it was terrorism, it could have been proof-of-concept for a bigger plot, in which case the organization wouldn’t claim credit.


4 posted on 06/06/2009 5:40:25 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: george76

I’m posing this question for the third time: Why don’t they encased the “black boxes” in some type of floatation device?


5 posted on 06/06/2009 5:40:59 PM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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To: afraidfortherepublic

encased = encase


6 posted on 06/06/2009 5:41:25 PM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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To: afraidfortherepublic
Because the black boxes (which are actually bright orange), are attached to the plane with a bundle of wires.

Flotation 'case' or not, it goes down with the plane, and stays attached, until someone disconnects it.

7 posted on 06/06/2009 5:43:58 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (The Last Boy Scout)
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To: Diana in Wisconsin

“Have they ruled out terrorism, yet? I really haven’t been keeping tabs on this...but am remembering how LONG it took for the doomed flight over Scotland to be tied to terrorism.”

I doubt they’ll admit to it being terrorism, but that is where my bets are.


8 posted on 06/06/2009 5:45:49 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Diana in Wisconsin

Nothing ruled out as far as I know.


9 posted on 06/06/2009 5:45:52 PM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: afraidfortherepublic

The flight data recorders are crash survivable. Therefore, the weigh a lot. Also, they must be secured to a rack or mount in the aircraft. Additionally, they have to be connected to sensors and computers through wire harnesses. How they are currently secured into the aircraft, if the area of said aircraft sinks, the recorders sink with them.


10 posted on 06/06/2009 5:47:19 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar
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To: afraidfortherepublic

That is new technology, coming on board. We use it on our military aircraft. The industry has resisted due to the high cost and lack of product availablility.


11 posted on 06/06/2009 5:50:57 PM PDT by gandalftb (An appeaser feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last......)
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To: UCANSEE2; Jet Jaguar

Thanks. I knew someone would know. Perhaps a redesign is in order? Hopefully they will find these. May the passengers and crew R.I.P.


12 posted on 06/06/2009 5:51:58 PM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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To: afraidfortherepublic
Perhaps a redesign is in order?

Post 10 gives more detail.

Post 11 answers your question.

Thanks to both of those posters.

13 posted on 06/06/2009 6:02:32 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (The Last Boy Scout)
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To: afraidfortherepublic

Why don’t they make the plane out of black box material?


14 posted on 06/06/2009 6:08:29 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist ("President Obama, your agenda is not new, it's not change, and it's not hope" - Rush Limbaugh 02/28)
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To: george76
Our subs will have no trouble finding the black box if it is pinging and put a GPS tag on it. Recovery will take longer with a deep-diving sub but almost certainly we will recover the important parts of the plane.

My theory is that the speed measuring pitot tubes iced over and auto pilot increased the engine power. Turbulence from the storm cell caused buffeting that overloaded the trim stabilizers and the aircraft lost control. Autopilot switched off by by then the aircraft was in a steep dive, exceeded airframe limits and broke apart.

A new type of control system on board does not allow pilots to over-steer. However when that system is not getting accurate data it can also keep pilots from obtaining control in a spiraling dive.

One of the hazards of fly-by-wire, computers are not good at emergencies. When unusual events layer on one another....the computers may not have a competent software response. How do you program human intuition and doubt? Those are essential for emergency decisions.

Experienced pilots have hunches and a feel for flying that cannot be replaced by computers. But then computers are cheaper, don't unionize, and allow lesser trained and cheaper pilots to be hired.

15 posted on 06/06/2009 6:08:39 PM PDT by gandalftb (An appeaser feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last......)
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To: Diana in Wisconsin
Have they ruled out terrorism, yet? I really haven’t been keeping tabs on this...but am remembering how LONG it took for the doomed flight over Scotland to be tied to terrorism.

someone would have taken credit for it if it was a terrorist attack, wouldn't they?

16 posted on 06/06/2009 6:10:34 PM PDT by JohnBrowdie (http://www.stink-eye.net)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
Why don’t they make the plane out of black box material?

Because if they did, it wouldn't get off the ground! (Yes, I know you're just making a joke.)

17 posted on 06/06/2009 6:19:02 PM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham ("Baldrick, to you the Renaissance was just something that happened to other people, wasn't it?")
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To: gandalftb
Our subs will have no trouble finding the black box if it is pinging and put a GPS tag on it. Recovery will take longer with a deep-diving sub but almost certainly we will recover the important parts of the plane.

What about the French subs? Why do we have to do it?

18 posted on 06/06/2009 6:20:03 PM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham ("Baldrick, to you the Renaissance was just something that happened to other people, wasn't it?")
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To: Mr Ramsbotham
What about the French subs? Why do we have to do it?

Because if you want it done right, you have to do it yourself.

19 posted on 06/06/2009 6:23:35 PM PDT by Plexi
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To: Plexi
Because if you want it done right, you have to do it yourself.

It's like the Canadian National Anthem ... O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!

20 posted on 06/06/2009 6:27:57 PM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham ("Baldrick, to you the Renaissance was just something that happened to other people, wasn't it?")
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To: gandalftb
My theory is that the speed measuring pitot tubes iced over and auto pilot increased the engine power. Turbulence from the storm cell caused buffeting that overloaded the trim stabilizers and the aircraft lost control. Autopilot switched off by by then the aircraft was in a steep dive, exceeded airframe limits and broke apart.

Why would it be necessary for the sensor pitot tubes to ice over? The navigation computer apparently uses three sets of tubes to monitor velocity components in three dimensional space. Lets assume horizontal flight during which the plane flies into a "micro burst" of several hundred mph downward. Would not that appear to the "Z" axis sensor as a rapid climb which would cause the autopilot to go hard over into a dive, just exactly the wrong thing to do in a severe downdraft? I can not figure out how the system can differentiate between a speed signal generated by motion of the plane and one generated by the wind alone. Nor can I understand why they are not using inertial guidance which has no external sensors to confuse the issue.

Maybe I'm not seeing something obvious here, but it seems to me that a three axis system based on pitot tubes is almost certain to get bogus signals from external wind forces and icing can only make matters worse.

Regards,
GtG

21 posted on 06/06/2009 6:32:51 PM PDT by Gandalf_The_Gray (I live in my own little world, I like it 'cuz they know me here.)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
Why don’t they make the plane out of black box material?

The airlines refuse to make all their aircraft bright orange.

22 posted on 06/06/2009 6:36:16 PM PDT by Erasmus (Barack Hussein Obama: America's toast!)
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To: gandalftb
The industry has resisted due to the high cost and lack of product availability.

Retrofit costs or technology costs? Or bot

23 posted on 06/06/2009 6:45:57 PM PDT by OpeEdMunkey (We seem to have reached a critical mass of stupid people.)
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To: george76

Prayers for the families.


24 posted on 06/06/2009 6:49:08 PM PDT by Carley (OBAMA IS A MALEVOLENT FORCE IN THE WORLD)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
Why don’t they make the plane out of black box material?

Then they'd have to search for the entire plane. (Yes, I know it's a joke.)

25 posted on 06/06/2009 6:50:44 PM PDT by OpeEdMunkey (We seem to have reached a critical mass of stupid people.)
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To: afraidfortherepublic

They normally make sounds underwater so they can be found.

I do wonder though if they can take the likely water pressures involved. Anything with voids or that is compressible will be utterly crushed at that depth.


26 posted on 06/06/2009 6:56:05 PM PDT by DB
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To: Mr Ramsbotham

“What about the French subs? Why do we have to do it? “

You know the answer. Because no one else can get it done.


27 posted on 06/06/2009 6:56:12 PM PDT by HereInTheHeartland (I agree with Rick..)
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To: Gandalf_The_Gray
There were 24 error signals sent. One was a NAV ADM disagreement, meaning that one set of pitot tubes disagreed with another. Uncertain anomaly. One would assume that what ever affected one pitot tube would affect them all equally and just create a new reference point.

One theory holds that in this very tall 50k' storm, there may have been a hail "nursery" that they flew into. In theory, all the pitot tubes from one side could have been damaged or blocked but not the other side.

Airspeed is critical for control at that altitude and on that Airbus, cannot exceed .8 mach. If auto pilot erroneously increased air speed, the plane would quicky stall and then spiral dive.

Late at night, one pilot asleep, computer dampening any needed correction, a layering of faults. That is the key in accident investigation, unforseen layering of problems.

Pilots are warned not to believe disagreeing speed indicators but switch over to their backup GPS speed indicators. If that wasn't done, and pilots increased speed manually by mistake, a nose up stall.

When to believe and not believe instruments is the critical judgement of pilots and the cause of most accidents. Flying at night, autopilot, no visual references, sleepy tired.....pilot error.

One issue I have with fly-by-wire is that there is no "push-back" from the throttle levers, no tactile sense of turbulence or engine strain.

You are correct about the inertial guidance and GPS back up systems, they are available....if the pilots use and believe them.

28 posted on 06/06/2009 6:57:25 PM PDT by gandalftb (An appeaser feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last......)
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To: gandalftb

If it is as deep as they say, the batteries and electronics may have been crushed by the extreme pressures at that depth.


29 posted on 06/06/2009 6:58:43 PM PDT by DB
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To: OpeEdMunkey

Retrofit costs. The airframe has to have a hole cut in it for an ejection port, very spendy.


30 posted on 06/06/2009 6:58:52 PM PDT by gandalftb (An appeaser feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last......)
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To: afraidfortherepublic

The idea is that the “black boxes” are supposed to stay attached to the aircraft; not go drifting off into the sunset.


31 posted on 06/06/2009 7:01:06 PM PDT by Redcloak ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: Gandalf_The_Gray
Airbus recommended the tubes be replaced. Just a recommendation, not a mandatory safety bulletin. Air France had not replaced the tubes on this plane.

But as we all learned in school, correlation does not imply causation.

32 posted on 06/06/2009 7:01:20 PM PDT by OpeEdMunkey (We seem to have reached a critical mass of stupid people.)
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To: Mr Ramsbotham
French subs are fewer and farther between and can't dive anywhere near as deep.

Our hydrophones are much more sensitive. At 500 foot depth, we can tell how hard it is raining on the surface by the "loudness" of the raindrops hitting the water, that we can distinguish from the sound of the waves and wind. Very crispy.

A sonic beacon transponder transmitting at a known frequency, no problem from at least 50 miles. Two or three subs and you are triangulated very quickly. If the black boxes are pinging we're on them already.

33 posted on 06/06/2009 7:06:09 PM PDT by gandalftb (An appeaser feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last......)
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To: OpeEdMunkey; Gandalf_The_Gray

Also, the speed indicators on the instrument panel of this aircraft were ordered to be replaced on April 27 because of this same problem and the work was to be done upon landing, oops.


34 posted on 06/06/2009 7:08:10 PM PDT by gandalftb (An appeaser feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last......)
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To: Mr Ramsbotham
What about the French subs? Why do we have to do it?

Don't tempt them to surrender to the waves, traveling on the surface is challenging enough.

35 posted on 06/06/2009 7:21:55 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Gandalf_The_Gray
The flight-control computer does use 3 A/S sensors but they are not for navigation and all 3 measure forward speed. There are 3 of them for redundancy-enhanced reliability.
36 posted on 06/06/2009 7:41:48 PM PDT by expatpat
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To: Gandalf_The_Gray
I can not figure out how the system can differentiate between a speed signal generated by motion of the plane and one generated by the wind alone.

The pitot-based system cannot. It measures speed relative to the air, not ground speed. Again, the pitot A/S sensors are used for fly-by-wire FLIGHT-CONTROL, not nav.

Inertial-guidance has been used for a long time for navigation. However, the gyros drift and the 'fix' needs to be corrected frequently. GPS is preferred for navigation.

37 posted on 06/06/2009 7:48:24 PM PDT by expatpat
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To: gandalftb
If auto pilot erroneously increased air speed, the plane would quickly stall and then spiral dive.

A stall occurs when the airspeed is too LOW, not when it is increased. If the airspeed exceeds Vne, the plane will start to break apart, due to the air-flow induced forces on tail and/or wings.

38 posted on 06/06/2009 7:52:15 PM PDT by expatpat
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To: george76

Obama emasculated the United States and undermined Israel beyond anything the terrorist could have wished for. If Obama had not gushed, then they’d claim credit.

We’re back to the Clinton era. They’ll get four-five attacks without any notable response. Biden warned us of as much. This is how it will go, so long as the MSM keeps its absolute allegiance to Obama.

Else Obama needs to wag the dog => Obama doesn’t take criticism well, but then what Marxist does.


39 posted on 06/06/2009 8:52:55 PM PDT by Fitzy_888 ("ownership society")
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To: Jet Jaguar
back in the late 60s when the lockheed C-141 starlifter was being built ..there was a deployable ELT emergency locator transmitter ...built into the top of the horizontal stabilizer .it was shaped like and airfoil ..so could be deployed by crew while aircraft was still airborne ..not perfect system but for a lost aircraft gave some hope of being found ..satellite's would make this approach better now ,because back then other aircraft did the looking for distress signals.. not sure if they have deployable units anymore..kind of a simple concept ..not to many starlifters went down ..great aircraft by lockheed
40 posted on 06/06/2009 8:55:20 PM PDT by liveoak4 (Abortion, the ultimate child abuse!!!)
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To: liveoak4

Thanks for the note.

Interesting.


41 posted on 06/06/2009 8:58:05 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar
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To: Mr Ramsbotham

Canada once defended herself proud, with her greatest day being 65 years ago today! If they stick with the likes of Harper they’ll get there again.


42 posted on 06/06/2009 9:36:11 PM PDT by JohnBovenmyer
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To: driftdiver

PAN-AM103 should have exploded over the Atlantic but the plane was delayed leaving Heathrow. Had it left on time, the culprits may never have been brought to justice.


43 posted on 06/06/2009 9:39:43 PM PDT by Churchillspirit
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To: gandalftb

French sub(s) are en route to the area.


44 posted on 06/06/2009 10:45:19 PM PDT by 1066AD
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To: Carley
Prayers for the families.

I am with you in that.

45 posted on 06/07/2009 12:46:59 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
Why don’t they make the plane out of black box material?

They do. They don't have wings. They are called tanks.

46 posted on 06/07/2009 1:06:37 AM PDT by NoControllingLegalAuthority
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To: expatpat
Generally yes, but at that altitude an increase in speed above .8 mach without trimming causes a nose up pitch, which is easily corrected manually. If not, a stall occurs, over-correcting by nose down and gaining speed works fine if your speed indicators are correct and the pilot believes them.

That's the issue here, were the pilots able to correct from a likely stall and how could a stall have happened? Not many other ways for this plane to come apart other than over-speeding due to bad indicators and a steep dive. It is known that the airframe catastrophically depressurized about 3 minutes after the 24 error messages went out. It happened so fast that the pilots never sent an emegency signal.

47 posted on 06/07/2009 6:06:10 AM PDT by gandalftb (An appeaser feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last......)
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To: expatpat
More details of the ACARS messages suggest following events while the airplane was in cruise (note, there is no message regarding electrics, hydraulics or engine problems):

02:10Z: Autothrust off Autopilot off FBW alternate law Rudder Travel Limiter Fault TCAS fault due to antenna fault Flight Envelope Computation warning All pitot static ports lost

02:11Z: Failure of all three ADIRUs Failure of gyros of ISIS (attitude information lost)

02:12Z: ADIRUs Air Data disagree

02:13Z: Flight Management, Guidance and Envelope Computer fault PRIM 1 fault SEC 1 fault

02:14Z: Cabin Pressure Controller fault (cabin vertical speed)

Not much doubt a stall occurred, either from too little speed or excessive attitude and over-correction.

There appears to be too little time for a low speed stall over-corrected by diving for speed to then over-speed and get airframe failure.

In the Qantas Airbus incident, the pilots decided that the aircraft had stalled and then over-speeded simultaneously, which commanded a negative G pushover followed by a pitch up, suddenly climbing 300 feet and then abruptly pitched nose down into a steep dive.

The maneuver exceeded the design certification of the airframe. Luckily the pilots regained control, many passengers injured. That's why I theorize that over-speeding may have been the original problem causing a loss of control cascade.

48 posted on 06/07/2009 6:40:37 AM PDT by gandalftb (An appeaser feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last......)
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To: gandalftb; expatpat

In the case of the Airbus (and many other airplanes), wing/body design is a compromise of many factors.

The air at FL50 is very thin. At higher speeds, drag is increased. Drag that brings the nose up.

Gadalftb is correct, in this situation,with this airframe, more power/speed without proper retrimming, could cause a stall.


49 posted on 06/07/2009 6:41:39 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (The Last Boy Scout)
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To: gandalftb

“02:10Z: Autothrust off Autopilot off FBW alternate law Rudder Travel Limiter Fault TCAS fault due to antenna fault ...”

The ‘alternate law’ rudder travel limiter fault suggests that the problems started in the rear.

Where is the antenna for the TCAS located? If you know.


50 posted on 06/07/2009 6:47:53 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (The Last Boy Scout)
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