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Jack Cashill: Reopen the TWA Flight 800 Case
American Thinker ^ | June 07, 2009 | Jack Cashill

Posted on 06/07/2009 12:31:42 AM PDT by neverdem

Nearly thirteen years after the destruction of TWA Flight 800 off the coast of Long Island, I had begun to think that the case was a dead issue, but then two unexpected and unrelated events caused me to think otherwise.

The first was a phone call from one of the three most important eyewitnesses to the case.  The second, two weeks later, was the still-mysterious crash of Air France Flight 447 off the coast of Brazil. 

This eyewitness put a further dent in the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) claim that a fuel tank explosion brought down TWA Flight 800.  The crash of Flight 447 has put TWA 800 back in the news again.   If the media are going to look to 800 as a template for 447, they need to know what the eyewitnesses to the 800 crash actually saw.

The eyewitness in question may be prepared to tell his story publicly.  After giving his testimony to the FBI in July 1996, for personal reasons, he had chosen to remain silent.  He is still sufficiently wary that I will shade his testimony and refer to him only as "Surfer."  What I will share, however, is his one, entirely damning, new revelation.

The other two critical eyewitnesses I will identify by name and FBI number.  The first is Mike Wire, #571. I have become good friends with Mike and his wife Joan since meeting them while doing research on the book, First Strike, that I co-authored with James Sanders in 2003.  (The documentary that Sanders and I produced in Spring 2001 is available online.  Part 1 sets the scene) 

The second key eyewitness, Joseph Delgado by name, 649 by number, was at the time the principal of Westhampton Beach High School.  He was not thrilled that Sanders and I had identified him in First Strike, but he acknowledged that our facts were accurate.  No one provided the FBI a more precise description of the event than Delgado.  His illustration of the same is stunning.

The surfer saw the events just about as clearly as Delgado.  What he also saw, in addition to the apparent missile, was the break-up sequence of the aircraft.  He described it accurately to the FBI long before the NTSB came to the same conclusion based on radar and the debris field. 

These are just three of the 270 eyewitnesses by the FBI's own count that saw a flaming, smoke-trailing, zigzagging object appear to destroy TWA Flight 800.   All three followed the object off the horizon.  Delgado and the surfer tracked TWA 800 separately from the object and witnessed the moment of impact.  Wire and the surfer saw the object "arch over" before the strike. The New York Times interviewed none of these three, none of the 270 for that matter.

A no-nonsense, 6'-7" millwright and U.S. Army vet, Mike Wire watched events unfold from the Beach Lane Bridge in Westhampton on Long Island.  He came to play a key role because the CIA based its notorious video animation on Wire's perspective.  Why the CIA was involved in a domestic airplane "accident" is anyone's guess.  The media never bothered to ask.

The FBI showed the CIA video just once.  That was in November 1997 when it officially bowed out of the case.  The FBI needed it to negate the stubborn testimony of the eyewitnesses.

A key animation sequence in the CIA video showed not a missile but an internal fuel tank explosion blowing the nose off the aircraft. According to the video's narration, TWA 800 then "pitched up abruptly and climbed several thousand feet from its last recorded altitude of about 13,800 feet to a maximum altitude of about 17,000 feet."  This rocketing aircraft was alleged to look like a missile and to have confused the eyewitnesses.  (The animation begins at the 8:30 mark of Part 2 of "Silenced"). 

This animation was essential to close the investigation. Without it, there was no way to explain what these hundreds of official FBI eyewitnesses, many of them highly credible, had actually seen.

According to the official record, the three key eyewitnesses were re-interviewed by the FBI in 1997.  The authorities paid most attention to Delgado.  On May 8, 1997, agents from the FBI and the Naval Air Warfare Center in China Lake, California, interviewed Delgado at his Long island school.  According to FBI notes, the China Lake rep was introduced to Delgado simply as "a member of the Department of Defense."

Delgado told the authorities once again that he had seen an object like "a firework," ascend "fairly quick," then "slow" and "wiggle" then "speed up" and get "lost."  Then he saw a second object that "glimmered" in the sky, higher than the first, then a red dot move up to that object, then a puff of smoke, then another puff, then a "firebox."  The agents seem to have taken him seriously.

In Mike Wire's first interview on July 29, 1996, at his Pennsylvania home, he told an FBI agent exactly what he had seen, and it tracks closely with Delgado's account.  Here is how the agent recorded the conversation on his "302:"

Wire saw a white light that was traveling skyward from the ground at approximately a 40 degree angle.  Wire described the white light as a light that sparkled and thought it was some type of fireworks. Wire stated that the white light 'zig zagged' (sic) as it traveled upwards, and at the apex of its travel the white light "arched over" and disappeared from Wire's view. . . . Wire stated the white light traveled outwards from the beach in a south-southeasterly direction.

After the light disappeared, the 302 continues, Wire "saw an orange light that appeared to be a fireball."  Although the CIA chose to build its animation squarely on Mike Wire's perspective, the story the CIA video told bore almost no relation to the one Wire had told the FBI. 

The NTSB transcribed its 1999 conversations with the CIA analysts responsible for the video.  (NTSB Witness document, Appendix FF, Docket No. SA-516, April 30, 1999).  In this document, the CIA analysts concede the problems that Mike Wire's original 302 presented. 

Said one, "We realized that if he [Wire] was only seeing the airplane, that he would not see a light appear from behind the rooftop of that house."  In other words, the CIA could not square its account of a self-imploding airline turning into a rocket with Wires' account since TWA 800 was at least 20 degrees above the horizon, well above the rooftop. So, claimed the CIA analyst, "We asked the FBI to talk to [Wire] again, and they did."

It was during this follow-up interview with the FBI, some time in 1997, that Wire was reported to have changed his mind, now admitting that he had first seen the ascending light high above the rooftop. How high?  Said the CIA analyst,  "[Wire] said it was as if - if you imagine a flag pole on top of the house it would be as if it were on the top or the tip of the flag pole."

The CIA analysts based their video on this second interview with Mike Wire.  "FBI investigators determined precisely where the eyewitness was standing," says the narrator while the video shows the explosion from Wire's perspective on Beach Lane Bridge. "The white light the eyewitness saw was very likely the aircraft very briefly ascending and arching over after it exploded rather than a missile attacking the aircraft."

The CIA animation converts Wire's "40 degree" climb to one of roughly 70 or 80 degrees. It reduces the movement of an obvious smoke trail from three dimensions, south and east "outward from the beach," to a small, two-dimensional blip far off shore.  It places the explosion noticeably to the West of where Wire clearly remembers it.  Most problematically, it fully ignores Wire's claim that the streak of light ascended "skyward from the ground" and places his first sighting 20 degrees above the horizon, exactly where Flight 800 would have been.

In fact, Wire never told the FBI anything about a flagpole.  He could not have.  He never talked to the FBI, the NTSB or the CIA after July of 1996. The CIA and/or the FBI fabricated the entire interview and added the flagpole detail to make the interview seem real.  The 302 from this alleged second interview is not in the official NTSB record.

The surfer added confirming detail to Wire's account.  After thirteen years, he finally read the 302s the FBI had prepared.  The first one from 1996 was entirely accurate.  The second one from 1997 added very specific new details about the surfer that served to discredit his testimony.  Not only were the details untrue, the surfer told me, but, as in Wire's case, there was no second interview.

Delgado presented more of a challenge.  The serious nature of his second interview suggests that there was still a force within the bureaucracy struggling to get at the truth.  By the time of the NTSB's final hearing in August 2000, that force had obviously been suppressed. 

At the hearing the task of discrediting Delgado fell to one Dr. David Mayer, who headed up the NTSB's Orwellian-titled "Human Performance Division."  He too solved his problem with a flagpole.  As Mayer described events, everything Delgado saw occurred "between these two flagpoles."  Mayer then used an illustration to show where those flagpoles were located and vectored Delgado's line of sight from between those flagpoles out to sea.

"So again," said Mayer, "it doesn't appear that this witness was looking in the right location to see where flight 800 would have been when it would have been struck by a hypothetical missile."  If he were looking in the wrong direction, Mayer implied, none of his testimony could possibly matter.

One major objection here. In none of the FBI notes does Delgado ever mention a flagpole, let alone two flagpoles. With good reason. There weren't any at his location in Westhampton. Like the CIA analysts, Mayer created flagpoles that did not exist and entered them into the official record.
Mayer knew better.  In researching this article I discovered a detail I had missed before.  On July 20, 1996, three days after the crash, the Suffolk County Police went to the high school parking lot where Delgado had been standing and did a GPS reading of his angle of vision.  Mayer had total access to this information.  He suppressed it.  And he was not the only one to suppress information.  There is powerful evidence to suggest that the authorities consciously corrupted the testimony of the three most critical eyewitness to the crash.

The NTSB has since fully abandoned the CIA "zoom-climb" explanation, but it worked to distract an administration-friendly media.  For a new administration so keen on transparency, and a media so keen on exposing the past abuses of our intelligence agencies, and for the families of air crash victims looking for closure, TWA Flight 800 would seem like a very good place to start clearing the air. 

It is time to reopen the case.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government
KEYWORDS: cashill; flight800; twa; twa800; twaflight800
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IIRC, the official explanation of the internal explosion of the fuel tank by static electricity never occured before that in any airplane. Calling Occam's razor.
1 posted on 06/07/2009 12:31:42 AM PDT by neverdem
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To: neverdem

bump


2 posted on 06/07/2009 12:40:06 AM PDT by JerseyJohn61 (Better Late Than Never.......sometimes over lapping is worth the effort....)
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To: neverdem

“never occured before that in any airplane”

And if that was the 1st time ever, what are the odds it happens off Long Island?


3 posted on 06/07/2009 12:49:43 AM PDT by chuck_the_tv_out (click my name)
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To: neverdem
I still remember the day, and I still remember seeing eyewitness after eyewitness on CNN and Fox News that day describing a "light" going from the surface to the plane before the explosion.

Those who described seeing TWA-800 explode that day did so in the context of a surface to air missile bringing it down.

Not that I'm a conspiracy theorist (I'm not..) but I've never believed the Gubbermint's account of TWA-800.

4 posted on 06/07/2009 12:53:50 AM PDT by usconservative (When The Ballot Box No Longer Counts, The Ammunition Box Does. (What's In Your Ammo Box?))
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To: neverdem

Jack Cashill BUMP!


5 posted on 06/07/2009 12:55:39 AM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: neverdem

If Flight 447 was flying at approximately 50,000 feet there aren’t very many missiles of the normal kind that could have taken it out from what I understand.


6 posted on 06/07/2009 1:03:57 AM PDT by DB
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To: neverdem

There has to be other Eye Witnesses and those involved in the “Interviews” that wull come forward now for the Security and Future Health of Our Dear AMERICA to bring the Truth about the Destruction of TWA 800 to the Light of Day.
One thing We can be sure of is that Mr. Obama’s Administration will continue to hide the Truth because it wonte reflect well on the MUSLIM TERRORISTS who Obama denies even Exists! Dr. Cashill has done extensive Investigations on TWA 800 and deserves all the help and assistance possible in bringing out what really happened to TWA 800 for the Families Who Lost their Loved Ones, for AMERICA and for AMERICA’S Citizens, US! who deserve No Less Than the TRUTH! Also, LETS DEMAND that the documentary “PATH TO 9-11” be released by DISNEY/ABC and the CLINTOON CENSORS for the Judgment of the AMERICAN PUBLIC! As of yet, We do NOT LIVE in Venezuala, Cuba or KENYA wher We would expect to be denied OUR FREEDOMS.


7 posted on 06/07/2009 1:05:11 AM PDT by True Republican Patriot (GOD BLESS AMERICA and Our Last Great President George W. Bush)
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To: DB

And I’ll add if they had such a missile, why go after an Air France plane verses one of ours?


8 posted on 06/07/2009 1:05:21 AM PDT by DB
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To: neverdem

The feds announced the cause of the crash before the investigation began. Thats my memory; they announced what the investigation would find the day they announced that the investigation was starting.

My reaction at the time was, what?

The government’s position from the beginning has always been, “who are you going to believe, us or your lying eyes?”


9 posted on 06/07/2009 1:07:24 AM PDT by marron
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To: DB
If Flight 447 was flying at approximately 50,000 feet there aren’t very many missiles of the normal kind that could have taken it out from what I understand.

The plane just got approval to increase their elevation to 15,000 feet when contact was lost.
10 posted on 06/07/2009 1:15:35 AM PDT by microgood
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To: neverdem; All
Keep hitting F5 until it loads:

TWA 800- who speaks for the dead?
Published: 07-14-01

11 posted on 06/07/2009 1:19:09 AM PDT by backhoe (All across America, the Lights are going out...)
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To: neverdem

I really wish the US Government was competent enough to pull off a massive cover up like this. I really do. Sadly, the US Government isn’t near as competent, or coordinated enough, to make this a reality. People claim the US Government can fake 9/11, coverup TWA 800, hide UFOs, and all sorts of other garbage, but then can’t even have the foresight to plant WMD in Iraq. Way funny.


12 posted on 06/07/2009 1:24:47 AM PDT by killjoy (Life sucks, wear a helmet.)
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To: neverdem

TWA Flight 800 is another one of those terrorist attacks, which the government does not (and did not) want anyone to know about.

Oklahoma City is another such incident...

We’ve been attacked a few more times by terrorists than the government wants to really let us know about...


13 posted on 06/07/2009 1:36:04 AM PDT by Star Traveler (The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a Zionist and Jerusalem is the apple of His eye.)
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To: killjoy

You said — People claim the US Government can fake 9/11, coverup TWA 800, hide UFOs, and all sorts of other garbage, but then can’t even have the foresight to plant WMD in Iraq. Way funny.

Those items are all over the ball park. They are not related and don’t show the government necessarily doing something in one item that carries over to the other item.

For one thing, hiding UFOs and putting that into the same sentence as 9/11 or TWA Flight 800 is ridiculous.

On top of that, putting the “truther” idea of 9/11 into the same sentence at TWA Flight 800 is double ridiculous.

I don’t buy into the “truther” story about 9/11, and neither do I about the UFOs being hidden by the government (although I do think that people are seeing something, but the government is just as ignorant about it as the people in general are...).

As far as the WMD in Iraq, to me it’s really obvious that our government did know that the WMD was carted off to Syria. But, for some reason, they did not (and don’t) want to admit or clarify what they do know about it all. For some reason they are keeping this information quiet. And keeping it quiet and keeping that information secret does not mean that they didn’t have the “foresight to plant WMD in Iraq”...

None of those things relate to the issue of TWA Flight 800. And it’s entirely possible for the government to keep secret the real cause of the downing of TWA Flight 800. That’s not hard to do, as we can see plainly, by simply not even bothering to interview witnesses who saw something different than the “story-line” that the government wanted to pursue “officially”...

I’m sure that the government knows that this was a terrorist attack and for some reason they decided that it would be better to keep the whole thing secret and under wraps (and for some misguided reason, I think...).


14 posted on 06/07/2009 1:45:31 AM PDT by Star Traveler (The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a Zionist and Jerusalem is the apple of His eye.)
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To: neverdem

From Wikipedia located here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800

Analysis of reported witness observations

Numerous witnesses in the vicinity of the accident reported a streak of light. As the NTSB noted, “There was intense public interest in these witness reports and much speculation that the reported streak of light was a missile that eventually struck TWA flight 800, causing the airplane to explode.”[8] The NTSB Witness Group concluded that the streak of light reported by witnesses might have been the accident airplane during some stage of its flight before the fireball developed, noting that most of the 258 streak of light accounts were generally consistent with the calculated flightpath of the accident airplane after the CWT explosion.[8]

However, 38 witnesses described a streak of light that ascended vertically, or nearly so, and these accounts “seem[ed] to be inconsistent with the accident airplane’s flightpath.”[8] In addition, 18 witnesses reported seeing a streak of light that originated at the surface, or the horizon, which was “not consistent with the airplane’s flightpath.”[8] With regard to these differing accounts, the NTSB noted that in previous investigations witness data was “often inconsistent with the known facts or other witnesses’ reports of the same events.”[8] The interviews conducted by the FBI focused on the possibility of a missile attack (some suggested interview questions given to FBI agents were “Where was the sun in relation to the missile launch point?” and “How long did the missile fly?”), and as a consequence there was possible interviewer/interviewee bias.[30] The NTSB concluded that given the large number of witnesses in this case, they “did not expect all of the documented witness observations to be consistent with one another”[8], and “did not view the apparent anomalous accounts as being persuasive evidence that some witnesses might have observed a missile.”[8]

The investigation determined that if witnesses had observed a missile attack they would have seen the following: (1) a light from the burning missile motor ascending very rapidly and steeply for about 8 seconds; (2) the light disappearing for up to 7 seconds; (3) upon the missile striking the aircraft and igniting the CWT another light, moving considerably slower and more laterally than the first, for about 30 seconds; (4) this light descending while simultaneously developing into a fireball falling toward the ocean.[8] None of the witness documents provided to the NTSB described such a scenario, and the investigation concluded that “the witness observations of a streak of light were not related to a missile and that the streak of light reported by most of these witnesses was the burning fuel from the accident airplane in crippled flight during some portion of the post-explosion, pre-impact breakup sequence.”[8]

Also see:
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w581BiSBzQA&feature=PlayList&p=9FB13C94EF3E8F7B&index=0&playnext=1

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKjHhm1T2UU&feature=PlayList&p=9FB13C94EF3E8F7B&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=5

Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4mvOBi_Wtg&feature=PlayList&p=9FB13C94EF3E8F7B&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=6


15 posted on 06/07/2009 2:02:51 AM PDT by David1
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To: microgood

“The plane just got approval to increase their elevation to 15,000 feet when contact was lost.”

WHAT???? The plane would not have been at 15,000 in that location, much less below that.
He would have been at maybe 30,000 at that point.


16 posted on 06/07/2009 2:10:01 AM PDT by AlexW (Now in the Philippines . Happy not to be back in the USA for now.)
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To: DB

“If Flight 447 was flying at approximately 50,000 feet there aren’t very many missiles of the normal kind that could have taken it out from what I understand.”

You are right, and anyone thinking a missile attack obviously does not know a jet airliner from a Cessna 150.

I do accept the likelihood that TWA 800 at low altitude
was indeed shot down.


17 posted on 06/07/2009 2:16:12 AM PDT by AlexW (Now in the Philippines . Happy not to be back in the USA for now.)
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To: DB
And I’ll add if they had such a missile, why go after an Air France plane verses one of ours?

While we don't know the method yet, they did have motive. The French have about 5,000,000 Muslim immigrants. A good number caused riots in their suburban enclaves not long ago. They didn't like riot suppression. The French have a law against hajibs. The French are helping NATO with combat troops in Afghanistan.

18 posted on 06/07/2009 2:17:24 AM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi minh oi)
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To: Star Traveler
For one thing, hiding UFOs and putting that into the same sentence as 9/11 or TWA Flight 800 is ridiculous.

I disagree. They are related because they would all require massive inter-agency coordination and nobody talking. Impossible. Your theory about WMD being carted off to Syria isn't true for the exact same reasons. It would require too many people to keep their mouth shut when the reward would be millions of dollars for blowing the whistle on it. Again, impossible.

19 posted on 06/07/2009 2:18:07 AM PDT by killjoy (Life sucks, wear a helmet.)
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To: killjoy

You were saying about the WMD being carted off to Syria — “It would require too many people to keep their mouth shut when the reward would be millions of dollars for blowing the whistle on it. Again, impossible.”

Well, actually, it doesn’t require people to shut up, because people haven’t shut up, actually... LOL... There have been ample reports about that. No one is shutting them up; it’s just that most of the public doesn’t believe them (and a large part of that non-believing public doesn’t want to believe them, because they are Democrats...).

And so..., it’s just that the U.S. government goes along with the detractors of the war in Iraq and says, “You’re right, we were wrong...” — at the same time that others are “spilling the beans” on it...

So, there’s no need for a massive cover-up here, just that the U.S. Government agrees with its detractors and then it lets human nature take its course and no one believes the ones who are spilling the beans on it. It works beautifully...


20 posted on 06/07/2009 2:27:34 AM PDT by Star Traveler (The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a Zionist and Jerusalem is the apple of His eye.)
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To: David1

Thanks for the links.


21 posted on 06/07/2009 2:28:42 AM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi minh oi)
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To: killjoy
I really wish the US Government was competent enough to pull off a massive cover up like this. I really do. Sadly, the US Government isn’t near as competent, or coordinated enough, to make this a reality. People claim the US Government can fake 9/11, coverup TWA 800, hide UFOs, and all sorts of other garbage, but then can’t even have the foresight to plant WMD in Iraq. Way funny.

Jamie Gorelick was remarkably positioned to do a number of things. She worked for Janet Reno after the Oklahoma City bombing after Iraqi agents were implicated. She was on the 911 Commission where she helped to deflect responsibility for that attack when she was the one who helped to erect the wall between the CIA and FBI about terrorist intelligence. After working at the Justice Dept. under Clinton, she got an appointment to Fannie Mae where she got plenty in bonuses. It stinks.

The rats quake about national security charges. They try to refute them like Clinton's war room.

22 posted on 06/07/2009 2:59:31 AM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi minh oi)
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To: True Republican Patriot

I totally agree with you...we MUST unify and take a stand. We have the numbers, but “UNITY” is the key.


23 posted on 06/07/2009 3:04:19 AM PDT by Paige ("All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing," Edmund Burke)
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To: AlexW

no, if he was just half way across Long Island, there was no way he was above 20K

They dont climb that fast with passengers with a 7 hour flight ahead of them, they dont need to

Plus, I’ve been to those beach areas, specifically the Morichies, 15K is about right, they still look big in the sky


24 posted on 06/07/2009 3:12:08 AM PDT by RaceBannon (We have sown the wind, but we will reap the whirlwind. NObama. Not my president.)
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To: Star Traveler
TWA800 OKC

We’ve been attacked a few more times by terrorists than the government wants to really let us know about...

OH MY GOSH! WHO are you? I thought all FREEPERS swallowed the government koolaid and had gone to government schools too! Isn't it OBVIOUS that is what happened but the masses still believe a corrupt government over their own common sense? I thought when Sandy Berger got caught putting TOP SECRET special catagory documents into his underwear that the thinking might start but no, they still can't see.

25 posted on 06/07/2009 3:32:14 AM PDT by BILL_C (Those who don't understand the lessons of history will repeat, repeat and repeat.)
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To: RaceBannon

“no, if he was just half way across Long Island, there was no way he was above 20K”

I am not sure who you are replying to.. I never mentioned anything about TWA800 altitude.
My guess is maybe 10,000, max


26 posted on 06/07/2009 3:36:18 AM PDT by AlexW (Now in the Philippines . Happy not to be back in the USA for now.)
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To: AlexW

I thought that AF447 was at somewhere between FL300 to FL350 ,,, that 50,000 number is the reported top of the weather (although hail can overshoot the clouds tops on the updraft)...

More importantly ,, I heard reports that the ocean depth where AF447 was thought to have gone down was somewhere just over 20,000’ ... do we have a better idea of the location and depth now for blackbox retrieval?


27 posted on 06/07/2009 3:39:13 AM PDT by Neidermeyer
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To: Neidermeyer

“I heard reports that the ocean depth where AF447 was thought to have gone down was somewhere just over 20,000’”

Yes, and there are mountains from the sea floor going up over 10,000 ft.

This may all be moot now. I understand that the site has been located and 2 bodies recovered.


28 posted on 06/07/2009 3:43:06 AM PDT by AlexW (Now in the Philippines . Happy not to be back in the USA for now.)
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To: neverdem

The day after the downing of this Jet off Long Island the F.B.I. lead investigator James Kalstrom or Halstram I think,
in a t.v. interview said that, “if it ever came out what really happened”, caught himself and shut the hell up.
Then the gubmnt made up this B.S. story of a “FUEL LEAK”.
Government lies and more lies.


29 posted on 06/07/2009 3:47:19 AM PDT by Joe Boucher
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To: neverdem
[Article] For a new administration so keen on transparency, and a media so keen on exposing the past abuses of our intelligence agencies......

Have some coffee, Mr. Cashill.

The Clinton and Obama Administrations are thematically indistinguishable at this point, and the amount of personnel overlap in national-security and policymaking organs is conspicuous and high-level.

If the Clinton Administration suppressed a successful terrorist missile attack in U.S. airspace for political reasons in 1996, that policy will continue today, for the same reasons. There will be no recensions and no recanting the old policies.

30 posted on 06/07/2009 3:52:08 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: AlexW; RaceBannon
[AlexW] I never mentioned anything about TWA800 altitude. My guess is maybe 10,000, max

I recall an article at the time, that said that TWA 800 was climbing through 13,600' at the time of the explosion.

That's from memory.

31 posted on 06/07/2009 3:56:16 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: neverdem

read later


32 posted on 06/07/2009 4:11:25 AM PDT by Guenevere
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To: DB

AF447 reportedly was cruising at 35,000 feet at last contact, not 50,000 as you say.

But even if you were to have some backup for that assertion, so what? The article makes no claim whatsoever about a missile taking out AF447. In fact, it makes no speculation whatsoever on the cause of the AirFrance event. Nor do the responses preceding yours even mention it. Yet you interject this wild (and erroneous) non-sequitur as response to...nothing.


33 posted on 06/07/2009 4:14:14 AM PDT by Eroteme
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To: Star Traveler
I’m sure that the government knows that this was a terrorist attack and for some reason they decided that it would be better to keep the whole thing secret and under wraps (and for some misguided reason, I think...).

I don't know whether I agree with you about TWA 800 at all, but it's well known now that President Clinton, for political reasons, consistently and doggedly refused to treat terrorist incidents as anything but police matters, even incidents like the Khobar Towers and Nairobi embassy bombings. The USS Cole bombing was investigated by the FBI, not CIA Counterintelligence, as if it were a domestic fireworks prank that got out of hand, not a paramilitary terrorist bombing in a foreign seaport.

34 posted on 06/07/2009 4:15:49 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: DB
If Flight 447 was flying at approximately 50,000 feet

Where did the 50,000' number come from? The service ceiling for the A-330 is 40,500'. They couldn't get to FL50 if they'd have wanted to, especially with a full load of passengers and fuel. Zealous reporter?

35 posted on 06/07/2009 4:23:44 AM PDT by Thermalseeker (Fight Fascism - Buy a Ford!)
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To: AlexW
I do accept the likelihood that TWA 800 at low altitude was indeed shot down.

The one thing that nobody has explained regarding TWA800 is where did the oxygen come from to cause explosive combustion of kerosene vapors at 12,000'-14,00' from just a spark? The fuel tanks are vented to the outside to allow for fuel expansion and contraction. There simply was not enough oxygen available at that altitude to allow explosive combustion of kerosene. Kerosene, aka Jet-A, has to be compressed to get it to burn at altitude. That's what a jet engine does.....

36 posted on 06/07/2009 4:30:45 AM PDT by Thermalseeker (Fight Fascism - Buy a Ford!)
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To: usconservative

I never believed the official version of why Flight 800 went down either. There were too many initial eyewitness accounts of a light streaking towards the plane from the ground before the explosion.

I still think it was either terrorism or friendly fire from a Navy or Coast Guard training exercise gone wrong. Either way, the goobermint IS hiding something.


37 posted on 06/07/2009 4:35:00 AM PDT by alice_in_bubbaland (Markets and Marxists Don't Mix! Smile you're on Janet's Candid Camera!)
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To: microgood

They were flying into a major storm at 15,000 feet?

That doesn’t sound even remotely correct.


38 posted on 06/07/2009 4:35:58 AM PDT by DB
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To: neverdem

39 posted on 06/07/2009 4:36:44 AM PDT by bill1952 (Power is an illusion created between those with power - and those without)
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To: RaceBannon

Wrong doomed flight.


40 posted on 06/07/2009 4:37:55 AM PDT by DB
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To: Eroteme

My mistake. I didn’t read the entire article. The implication from the start is that their fate was related (why else would it reopen TWA flight 800?).


41 posted on 06/07/2009 4:40:29 AM PDT by DB
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To: Thermalseeker

I probably misread something earlier... Basically that they would be trying to fly over the storm and that this particular storm had wicked weather at 50,000 feet - or something to that affect...


42 posted on 06/07/2009 4:42:10 AM PDT by DB
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To: RaceBannon
Plus, I’ve been to those beach areas, specifically the Morichies, 15K is about right, they still look big in the sky

Well, the missile theory has a few problems (setting the eyewitnesses aside for a minute), the first being tactical. I'm unaware of a MANPADS that can reach an aircraft reliably at 13,000'. The Stinger's operational ceiling is about that, or rather less. The copies cranked out by the Soviets and Chinese are about the same, for obvious reasons (their propellants aren't any better than ours).

And remember the attempt in Kenya a few years ago to take down an airliner with a pair of ex-Soviet SA-14's (the Stinger copies I referred to). The attempt failed.

A further problem for the TWA 800 missile enthusiasts is the fact that the explosion occurred dead-center in the aircraft, whereas SA-14's, Stingers, etc., are IR homing and typically strike an engine. Recall the DHL Airbus A300 freighter that was struck on one wing (photo) over Baghdad by an SA-14 MANPADS but managed to land safely.

If TWA 800 had been struck by an SA-14, a) it might easily have survived the attack and landed safely, the 747 being a big, capable aircraft with multiple system redundancy, and b) if it had succumbed, the sequence of events would have been a lot different.

43 posted on 06/07/2009 4:55:20 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: DB
Basically that they would be trying to fly over the storm and that this particular storm had wicked weather at 50,000 feet - or something to that affect...

They were transitioning what is known as the "inter tropical convergence zone" or the ITCZ. This is where trade winds from the northern and southern hemispheres converge. This convergence often results in very violent convective weather. My guess is weather wasn't the only factor, though. Usually, a crash is caused by a series of events that stack up on each other to cause the crash. All too often the last item in the stack sadly is pilot error....

44 posted on 06/07/2009 4:56:38 AM PDT by Thermalseeker (Fight Fascism - Buy a Ford!)
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To: neverdem
The simple fact is this: eyewitnesses see anything and everything, which is why they are largely unreliable in any trial.

Forensics don't lie. The forensics of the airplane showed

*no explosive material of the type associated with any known warhead, and certainly not on any "Stinger" type missile.

*This was explained away in "First Strike" as the (what I will call) "attack" missile didn't explode---it "passed through." This would be more unusual than electric static charge, more about which I will comment in a moment.

*Since Saunders had no explosive residue, he then focused on the infamous "red residue" that he claimed could be evidence of a "pass through" missile---i.e., one that didn't explode but simply passed through the airplane. Problem: this also would not cause the explosion. Saunders then hypothesized that such a missile wasn't the "attack" missile, but now changed his story to claim it was an off-course drone from a Navy exercise being chased by an "attack" missile. Ok, so now we have TWO missiles, neither of which showed up on ANY radar screen anywhere.

I have yet to find any military person who thinks a Stinger, given the range, altitude, and distance, could have reached TWA 800. It was at the very, very extreme end of a Stinger IF . . . IF . . . the shooter was perfectly situated underneath TWA 800. But then see problem #1: no explosive residue.

The so-called red residue of a pass through missile was explained by other chemical reactions, and for such a pass through missile to have been the culprit, it would have left massive, other consistent signatures everywhere---in hull entry, throughout every piece of recovered (compromised) material. No such evidence was ever found.

No radar has ever detected missile evidence; the Navy staunchly denied ever conducting tests, and no Navy person has ever once broken with that denial.

As to the static electricity, this was reproduced on the show "Mythbusters" a few years ago. They achieved a fuel tank explosion under similar (not exact) conditions that to them was stunning in the violence of the explosion. It literally blew their test article apart.

45 posted on 06/07/2009 5:20:30 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: microgood
This is still at the extreme, extreme end of any hand-held missile. Remember, it's not just altitude---it's distance. You can say 15,000 feet, but that's if you are directly underneath. For every foot away from the target you are, it is altitude PLUS distance.
46 posted on 06/07/2009 5:21:45 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: AlexW
See my critique. Saunders is way off base if you look at the forensic evidence. I don't exclude the idea of a government coverup, but a) Mythbusters did recreate the fuel tank explosion on their stupid little budget, and b) there is zero evidence of explosive residue in the 800 wreckage.

See my critique above. One more point: You could say, "Well, the terrorists used a pass through missile without an explosive warhead." Wow. That would be a first, and it would be taking a phenomenal risk that it would have the effect it did. If it passed through the hull but didn't cause an explosion, it would damage the plane, but not necessarily destroy it.

47 posted on 06/07/2009 5:25:29 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: Star Traveler

Correct...and the last one was in Arkansas last week.


48 posted on 06/07/2009 5:31:05 AM PDT by 2nd Bn, 11th Mar
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To: LS
It literally blew their test article apart.

The Mythbusters did nothing to reduce the oxygen content of the atmosphere around their test subject to mirror the oxygen content in the center fuel tank of TWA800 at 12,000'-14,000'. Since they didn't do this their "test" was meaningless....

49 posted on 06/07/2009 5:32:25 AM PDT by Thermalseeker (Fight Fascism - Buy a Ford!)
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To: LS

Rubbish.

There are multiple unidentifieds on the radar images.


50 posted on 06/07/2009 5:33:57 AM PDT by djf (Man up!! Don't be a FReeloader!! Make a donation today!)
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