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What Kind of Church Accepts Dr. George Tiller?
The Kansas City Star ^ | June 7, 2009 - 11:29am. | By Barb Shelly

Posted on 06/07/2009 2:56:42 PM PDT by lewisglad

News of Dr. George Tiller's death was only hours old last week when bloggers began asking the question: What kind of church accepts a doctor who performs abortions into its membership?

"I wonder what kind, if any, preaching against sin this church did since Tiller felt welcomed there," opined Blue Collar Todd, who declares on his blog that "liberalism, or sometimes called progressivism, is a false religion that stands in total antithesis to biblical Christianity."

Todd has already made up his mind, and so have others who called or e-mailed me this week to criticize a column I wrote describing the desperate circumstances that brought people to Wichita to obtain late-term abortions.

But I'll take a swing at the pitch anyway.

What kind of church would embrace George Tiller? A church that believes the creator endowed human beings with both conscience and intelligence, to enable us to wrestle with the complicated questions. A church that recognizes that one's relationship with that creator can't be dictated by a central authority, or proscribed by a narrow list of rules.

Tiller's church, Reformation Lutheran in Wichita, Kan., is one that trusts its members with the freedom to decide on matters of conscience. It holds that a choice made for good reasons and in good faith does not separate a human being from God.

Some call this "relativism," and blame it for a decline in morals and corruption of society.

I call it freedom. And, as with the right of a woman to decide on what terms to bring a child into the world, we should be vigilant against anyone or anything that would take it away.

(Excerpt) Read more at voices.kansascity.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events; US: Kansas
KEYWORDS: abortion; abortionist; barbshelly; churchofmolech; elca; fauxchristians; lutherans; moralrelativism; prolife; religiousleft; tiller
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1 posted on 06/07/2009 2:56:42 PM PDT by lewisglad
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To: lewisglad
>"What kind of church accepts a doctor who performs abortions into its membership? "

The same kind that accepts a BTK Rader.

2 posted on 06/07/2009 2:58:55 PM PDT by rawcatslyentist (<P><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajsov1M4h50"> Thank You Satan 1:50</a>)
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To: lewisglad

Perhaps a more pertinent question might be: What kind of church embraces and admires Tiller’s murderer ??


3 posted on 06/07/2009 2:59:45 PM PDT by mrmeangenes
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To: lewisglad

Lutheran, ELCA. The medical insurance package for ELCA ministers/wives includes coverage for abortions.


4 posted on 06/07/2009 3:00:48 PM PDT by ButThreeLeftsDo (FreeRepublic. Monthly Donors Wanted.)
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To: lewisglad
How about this Barb. The ONLY people claiming that Tiller was shot by Roeder are members of that church. Roeder pled innocent.

Why should we believe people who made America's most notorious late term abortionist their usher?

Isn't it more likely they did the shooting themselves and ID'd Roeder as a patsy?

Be good to wait for the trial or we might start thinking you played a part in this.

5 posted on 06/07/2009 3:00:57 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: lewisglad

What a crock of blather this man writes.

There is no biblical freedom to be immoral. Immoral actions remain immoral actions, and no one gets a prize for choosing a murderer’s path.


6 posted on 06/07/2009 3:02:01 PM PDT by xzins (Chaplain Says: Jesus befriends those who seek His help.)
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To: lewisglad

“Chapter 1
1 The worde of the lorde came vn to the prophete Ionas ye sonne of Amithai sayenge:
2 ryse and gett the to Niniue that greate citie and preach vn to the how that theyr wekednesse is come vpp before me.
3 And Ionas made hi ready to fle to Tharsis fro the presens of ye lorde and gatt hym downe to Ioppe and founde there a sheppe ready to goo to Tharsis and payed his fare and wet aborde to goo with them to Tharsis fro the presens of the lorde.
4 But ye lorde hurled a greate winde in to ye se so that there was a myghtie tepest in the se: in so moch yt the shepp was lyke to goo in peces.
5 And the mariners were afrayed and cried euery man vn to his god and cast out ye goodes yt were in ye sheppe in to ye se to lighten it of the. But Ionas gatt him vnder the hatches and layed him downe and slombrede.
6 And ye master of the sheppe came to him and sayd vn to hi why slomberest thou? vpp and call vn to thy god that God maye thinke on vs that we perish not.
7 And they sayde one to a nother come and lett vs cast lottes to know for whose cause we are thus troublede. And they cast lottes. And ye lott fell vppon Ionas.
8 The they said vnto hi tel vs for whose cause we are thus trowbled: what is thine occupacio whence comest thou how is thy cotre called and of what nacion art thou?
9 And he answered the I am an Ebrue: and the lord God of heuen which made both se and drie land I feare.
10 Then were the men exceadingly afrayd and sayd vn to him why diddest thou so? For they knew that he was fled from the presens of the lorde because he had told them.
11 Then they sayd vn to hym what shall we doo vnto the that the se maye cease fro trowblinge vs? For the se wrought and was trowblous.
12 And he answered them take me and cast me in to the se and so shall it lett you be in reste: for I wotte it is for my sake that this greate tempest is come vppon you.
13 Neuerthelesse the men assayed wyth rowenge to bringe the sheppe to lande: but it wold not be because the se so wrought and was so trowblous agenst them.
14 Wherefore they cried vn to the lorde and sayd: O lorde latt vs not perih for this mans deeth nether laye innocet bloud vn to oure charge: for thou lorde even as thy pleasure was so thou hast done.
15 And the they toke Ionas and cast hi in to ye se and the se lefte ragynge.
16 And ye men feared the lorde excedingly: and sacrificed sacrififice vn to the lorde: and vowed vowes.
17 Bvt ye lorde prepared a greate fyshe to swalow vp Ionas. And so was Ionas in ye bowels of ye fish .iij. dayes and .iij. nightes.

Chapter 2
1 And Ionas prayed vnto ye lord his god out of ye bowels of the fish.
2 And he sayde: in my tribulacion I called vn to the lorde and he answered me: out of the bely of hell I cried ad thou herdest my voyce.
3 For thou hadest cast me downe depe in the middes of the se: and the floud copased me aboute: and all thy waues and rowles of water wet ouer me:
4 and I thought yt I had bene cast awaye out of thy sight. But I will yet agayne loke towarde thy holy temple.
5 The water copased me eue vn to the very soule of me: the depe laye aboute me: ad the wedes were wrappte aboude myne heed.
6 And I wet downe vn to the botome of the hylles and was barred in with erth on euery syde for euer. And yet thou lorde my God broughtest vp my life agayne out of corrupcion.
7 When my soule faynted in me I thought on the lorde: and my prayer came in vn to the euen in to thy holy temple.
8 They yt obserue vayne vanities haue forsake him that was mercifull vn to them.
9 But I wil sacrifice vn to the with the voce of thankesgeuinge and will paye that I have vowed that sauinge cometh of the lorde.
10 And the lorde spake vn to the fish: and it cast out Ionas agayne vppon ye drie lande.

Chapter 3
1 Then came the worde of the lorde vn to Ionas agayne sayenge:
2 vpp ad gett ye to Niniue that greate citie and preache vn to the the preachynge which I bade ye.
3 And he arose and wet to Niniue at ye lordes comaundmet. Niniue was a greate citie vn to god coteynige .iij. dayes iourney
4 And Ionas went to and entred in to ye citie euen a dayes iourney and cried sayenge: There shall not passe .xl. dayes but Niniue shalbe ouerthrowen.
5 And the people of Niniue beleued God and proclaymed fastynge ad arayed them selues in sackcloth as well the greate as the small of them.
6 And ye tydinges came vn to the kinge of Niniue which arose out of his sete and did his apparell of and put on sackcloth and sate hi downe in asshes.
7 And it was cried ad commaunded in Niniue by ye auctorite of ye kinge ad of his lordes sayenge: se that nether ma or beest oxe or shepe tast ought at al and that they nether fede or drinke water.
8 And they put on sackcloth both man ad beest and cried vn to God mightily ad turned euery man from his weked waye and fro doenge wroge in which they were acustomed sayenge:
9 who can tell whether god will turne and repent and cease from his fearce wrathe that we perish not?
10 And when god saw theyr workes how they turned from theyr weked wayes he repented on ye euell which he sayd he wold doo vn to them ad dyd it not.”

In other words, anything goes. “My conscience told me to do it!”


7 posted on 06/07/2009 3:02:23 PM PDT by RoadTest (For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus - I Tim 2:5)
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To: lewisglad
What kind of church accepts a doctor who performs abortions into its membership?

I would have answered "Unitarian Universalist" but I guess that would have been too obvious?

8 posted on 06/07/2009 3:03:16 PM PDT by GOP_Raider (Have you risen above your own public education today?)
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To: lewisglad

Sin? What’s that?


9 posted on 06/07/2009 3:04:12 PM PDT by beethovenfan (If Islam is the solution, the "problem" must be freedom.)
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To: GOP_Raider
I would have answered "Unitarian Universalist" but I guess that would have been too obvious?

Next guess- ELCA..... I am still waiting for the ELCA PING

10 posted on 06/07/2009 3:05:56 PM PDT by 11th Commandment (Proud Member of the DHS radical list since 2008)
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To: lewisglad
Proverbs 14:12 (New International Version)

12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

11 posted on 06/07/2009 3:06:13 PM PDT by AUTiger83 (Alabamian by birth, Auburn alum by the grace of God . . .)
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To: lewisglad
Some call this “relativism,” and blame it for a decline in morals and corruption of society.

I call it freedom.

No, relativism is much closer to the mark.

12 posted on 06/07/2009 3:06:49 PM PDT by MAexile (Bats left, votes right)
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To: mrmeangenes

Hey newby,since hiller no longer walks amoung us how many new babies do you think are alive today?You sound like a leftist.


13 posted on 06/07/2009 3:07:45 PM PDT by HANG THE EXPENSE (Life is tough.It's even tougher when you're stupid.)
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To: lewisglad

A church that long ago jettisoned the Word of God and substituted some lame, feel-good, I’m OK-You’re OK self-styled delusion.


14 posted on 06/07/2009 3:08:25 PM PDT by bereanway (Sarah get your gun)
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Isnt there something in the bible that says sinners should not go to church?


15 posted on 06/07/2009 3:10:26 PM PDT by woofie
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To: beethovenfan

Setting the drink down without a coaster.


16 posted on 06/07/2009 3:11:01 PM PDT by allmost
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To: mrmeangenes

“Perhaps a more pertinent question might be: What kind of church embraces and admires Tiller’s murderer ??”

1) No church embraces and admires Tiller’s murderer because he has been in custody since the day he did it.
2) Can you be any more liberal?


17 posted on 06/07/2009 3:11:23 PM PDT by Pythia
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To: mrmeangenes
What kind of church embraces and admires Tiller’s murderer ??

None that are Christian.

18 posted on 06/07/2009 3:11:55 PM PDT by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: lewisglad
It holds that a choice made for good reasons and in good faith does not separate a human being from God.

Doesn't that sort of depend on what choice is made?

The Bible is pretty clear that Eve's choice in the Garden was made for what she thought were good reasons and in good faith. (Adams's choice was less so.) God nevertheless expelled them both from the Garden.

19 posted on 06/07/2009 3:13:28 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (Perception wins all the battles, reality wins all the wars)
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To: mrmeangenes; wagglebee

How is that MORE pertinent? You mean, because it was more wrong to kill Tiller than for Tiller to kill all those babies? (Wagglebee, how many babies are we talking here?)


20 posted on 06/07/2009 3:15:00 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Fight the bastards or perish! ~ Jim Robinson ~ Þ)
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To: woofie

No.


21 posted on 06/07/2009 3:15:01 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: lewisglad

Apparently, it is a church that has no respect for or blatnatly ignores God’s Law i.e. thou shalt not kill/murder. This is NOT my view, but no doubt they follow Man’s Law where abortion is viwed as ‘legal’ thus excused. They use the same argument as those for soldiers committing legalized killing for their country, etc.


22 posted on 06/07/2009 3:15:23 PM PDT by cranked
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To: AUTiger83

Jeremiah 17:9

“The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it?”

Trusting in our own good intentions is foolish. We can deceive ourselves more effectively than anyone else.


23 posted on 06/07/2009 3:16:00 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (Perception wins all the battles, reality wins all the wars)
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To: mrmeangenes

I don’t know.

What church has embraced and admired his murderer? None I agree with.


24 posted on 06/07/2009 3:16:59 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (Perception wins all the battles, reality wins all the wars)
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To: lewisglad
Tiller's church, Reformation Lutheran in Wichita, Kan., is one that trusts its members with the freedom to decide on matters of conscience. It holds that a choice made for good reasons and in good faith does not separate a human being from God.

"A choice made for good reasons" - like the choice the inhabitants of Sodom made?

1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning." "No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."

3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
  - Genesis 19:3-5


25 posted on 06/07/2009 3:17:25 PM PDT by COBOL2Java (Obamanation: an imploding administration headed by a clueless schmuck, with McCain as his Kowakian)
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To: metmom

ping


26 posted on 06/07/2009 3:17:50 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Fight the bastards or perish! ~ Jim Robinson ~ Þ)
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To: lewisglad
What kind of church accepts Dr. Tiller?

One that exists to worship man, not God.

27 posted on 06/07/2009 3:18:17 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: lewisglad
"What kind of church accepts a doctor who performs abortions into its membership?"

The same kind that harbored the founder of the ACLU and Planned Parenthood.. I believe it was the Universalist Unitarian.

28 posted on 06/07/2009 3:19:31 PM PDT by SandRat (Duty, Honor, Country! What else needs said?)
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To: imahawk

And you, sir sound cloacally-gifted.


29 posted on 06/07/2009 3:20:27 PM PDT by mrmeangenes
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To: AUTiger83

...It holds that a choice made for good reasons and in good faith does not separate a human being from God.”

Hitler thought he had a good reason for killing millions of people. I guess he is with God.


30 posted on 06/07/2009 3:20:54 PM PDT by Radl (sai)
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To: BykrBayb

I believe Tiller admitted to 60,000 that he led to the slaughter!


31 posted on 06/07/2009 3:25:16 PM PDT by Lesforlife
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To: lewisglad

An apostate one.


32 posted on 06/07/2009 3:25:57 PM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: lewisglad
Below is scripture about judging those INSIDE the church, which is very different from judging those OUTSIDE the church:

1 Corinthians 5:1-13 (New International Version)

1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3 Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4 When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

6 Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

The Church is full of sinners, myself and everyone I know included. However, we recognize that we are sinners and are repentent (i.e., ask God for forgiveness).

George Tiller's sin was incredibly public, blatant, and he most assuredly was not repentent. Most Bible-believing churches would have exercised this principle of expelling non-repentent sinners from the Church. George Tiller should have been excommunicated from the family of believers in an attempt to change his heart back to God.

33 posted on 06/07/2009 3:27:36 PM PDT by AUTiger83 (Alabamian by birth, Auburn alum by the grace of God . . .)
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To: Lesforlife

Thank you. Now that I see the number, I remember seeing it tossed around several times. It’s such a large number, it’s impossible to conceive of all the souls it represents. 60,000. How long would it take just to count that high?


34 posted on 06/07/2009 3:27:54 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Fight the bastards or perish! ~ Jim Robinson ~ Þ)
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To: Pythia
You wrote:

"1) No church embraces and admires Tiller’s murderer because he has been in custody since the day he did it. 2) Can you be any more liberal?"

Here, here! Bravo!

35 posted on 06/07/2009 3:29:06 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: BykrBayb
You mean, because it was more wrong to kill Tiller than for Tiller to kill all those babies?

Tiller, while he may have had a high body count, is more worse than any other abortionist.

For that matter, if one can justify killing Tiller, one could also justify killing a woman who had an abortion.

36 posted on 06/07/2009 3:29:28 PM PDT by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: lewisglad
“Tiller's church, Reformation Lutheran in Wichita, Kan., is one that trusts its members with the freedom to decide on matters of conscience. It holds that a choice made for good reasons and in good faith does not separate a human being from God.”

Will the author apply this line of...of..what shall we call it?...self serving justification?...to the shooter?

He (the shooter) made a choice for “good” (he gets to define good) reasons, and in good faith (his own “faith” in his own ability to decide what is right) in a matter of his (superior to God's law) conscience.

He'd make an outstanding member of the RLC!

37 posted on 06/07/2009 3:29:37 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo
Don't paint with a broad brush.

The ELCA has trouble.

I predict a split next year with a massive exodus.

Sheep or Goat seating Sir?

Goat please.

38 posted on 06/07/2009 3:30:21 PM PDT by right way right (Do not mistake Religion for God.)
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To: right way right

I meant Sheep!


39 posted on 06/07/2009 3:31:47 PM PDT by right way right (Do not mistake Religion for God.)
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To: lewisglad

Here’s a heart-warming update:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090607/ap_on_re_us/us_abortion_shooting


40 posted on 06/07/2009 3:31:59 PM PDT by mrmeangenes
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To: trumandogz

Nice straw man.

I was addressing a specific statement by the n00b. I have a specific question in relation to the n00b’s specific statement. I don’t feel like copying and pasting, but at this point, the posts are still there if you’d like to review.


41 posted on 06/07/2009 3:32:45 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Fight the bastards or perish! ~ Jim Robinson ~ Þ)
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To: lewisglad

I would have to say the same type of church that embraced Hitler and his like. A church where sin is not preached or that our choices can send us to hell. A church full of greasy grace and no sanctification.


42 posted on 06/07/2009 3:34:37 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Psalm 83:1-8 is on the horizon.)
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To: aberaussie; Aeronaut; aliquando; AlternateViewpoint; AnalogReigns; Archie Bunker on steroids; ...


Lutheran (ELCA) Ping!

Glory to the Holy Trinity!

43 posted on 06/07/2009 3:34:38 PM PDT by lightman (Adjutorium nostrum (+) in nomine Domini.)
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To: lewisglad

“Thou shalt not kill” fits for both the murderer and the abortionist.


44 posted on 06/07/2009 3:35:28 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: BykrBayb

I read his post and while Tiller was a Killer, he did not deserve to be assassinated.

Moreover, his question was stupid since no Christian church would condone Tiller being killed.


45 posted on 06/07/2009 3:36:34 PM PDT by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: lewisglad

It’s not so much that they received him, as that they let him remain as he was.


46 posted on 06/07/2009 3:36:58 PM PDT by RichInOC (No! BAD Rich! (What'd I say?))
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To: mrmeangenes

Again, how is that more pertinent? What makes the murder of Tiller more important than the 60,000 murders Tiller bragged about committing?


47 posted on 06/07/2009 3:37:55 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Fight the bastards or perish! ~ Jim Robinson ~ Þ)
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To: Radl
...It holds that a choice made for good reasons and in good faith does not separate a human being from God.”

Hitler thought he had a good reason for killing millions of people. I guess he is with God.

SARCASM OFF!

There, fixed it . . . just in case others didn't get that . . .

48 posted on 06/07/2009 3:38:05 PM PDT by AUTiger83 (Alabamian by birth, Auburn alum by the grace of God . . .)
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To: lewisglad
What Kind of Church Accepts Dr. George Tiller?

The ELCA is a natural fit for him.

49 posted on 06/07/2009 3:38:55 PM PDT by GingisK
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To: mrmeangenes
Perhaps a more pertinent question might be: What kind of church embraces and admires Tiller’s murderer

I'm not aware of any. Are you?

50 posted on 06/07/2009 3:40:11 PM PDT by Minn (Here is a realistic picture of the prophet: ----> ([: {()
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