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Are Judaism and Christianity as Violent as Islam?
http://www.meforum.org/2159/are-judaism-and-christianity-as-violent-as-islam ^ | Raymond Ibrahim

Posted on 06/08/2009 11:04:36 AM PDT by ventanax5

“There is far more violence in the Bible than in the Qur’an; the idea that Islam imposed itself by the sword is a Western fiction, fabricated during the time of the Crusades when, in fact, it was Western Christians who were fighting brutal holy wars against Islam.” So announces former nun and self-professed “freelance monotheist,” Karen Armstrong. This quote sums up the single most influential argument currently serving to deflect the accusation that Islam is inherently violent and intolerant: All monotheistic religions, proponents of such an argument say, and not just Islam, have their fair share of violent and intolerant scriptures, as well as bloody histories. Thus, whenever Islam’s sacred scriptures — the Qur’an first, followed by the reports on the words and deeds of Muhammad (the Hadith) — are highlighted as demonstrative of the religion’s innate bellicosity, the immediate rejoinder is that other scriptures, specifically those of Judeo-Christianity, are as riddled with violent passages. …

(Excerpt) Read more at meforum.org ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Israel; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: bible; christian; hebrews; islam; israel; jihad; judaism; oldtestament; religion; violence
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1 posted on 06/08/2009 11:04:36 AM PDT by ventanax5
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To: ventanax5

I’ll bet this useful idiot also can tell us of all the numerous times Jerusalem is mentioned in the koran.


2 posted on 06/08/2009 11:08:15 AM PDT by pnh102 (Regarding liberalism, always attribute to malice what you think can be explained by stupidity. - Me)
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To: ventanax5

This is comparing apples to oranges. Islam is not a religion. It is a violent political ideology of which religion is only one component and is used as a means to impose Sharia Laws on non muslim societies.


3 posted on 06/08/2009 11:08:22 AM PDT by Man50D (Fair Tax, you earn it, you keep it!)
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To: ventanax5

The agenda: do away with established religion, and replace it with a Godless one, right?


4 posted on 06/08/2009 11:09:12 AM PDT by pray4liberty (http://www.foundersvalues.com/)
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To: Man50D

5 posted on 06/08/2009 11:09:34 AM PDT by chuck_the_tv_out (click my name)
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To: ventanax5

The most violent religion ever is Atheism.

More people were killed in the last 100 years in the name of NO God than all of the other religions combined.

Think communism, nazism, etc.


6 posted on 06/08/2009 11:10:19 AM PDT by Retired Greyhound
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To: ventanax5

Silly on its face.

Ask Charles Martel, Vlad the Impaler, and the peoples of India, Persia, Africa, Turkey, and the Baltic region how peacefully they were converted to Islam.

My mother was born in Sicily. They have long, unhappy memories as dhimmies under Moorish domination.

Please spare us the vapid and stupid historical revisionism.

We are not as stupid as you would like us to be.

Oh, and watch the documentaries, “The Third Jihad” and “Obsession”.

That is VERY RECENT history.


7 posted on 06/08/2009 11:11:08 AM PDT by Westbrook (Having more children does not divide your love, it multiplies it.)
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To: Retired Greyhound

Wrong.

Atheism is just not believing in supernatural beings produced by Man’s imagination.

Full-stop.


8 posted on 06/08/2009 11:12:51 AM PDT by MyTwoCopperCoins (I don't have a license to kill; I have a learner's permit.)
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To: ventanax5

Here’s the biggest difference between Christianity, Judaism and Islam- the violent Christians and Jews are the ones betraying their religion. In Islam, the peaceful tolerant Muslims are the ones betraying THEIR religion.


9 posted on 06/08/2009 11:15:13 AM PDT by MuttTheHoople
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins

Atheism has all the hallmarks of a religion.

Not believing in God is just not believing in God. No label needed.


10 posted on 06/08/2009 11:15:49 AM PDT by Retired Greyhound
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To: Retired Greyhound

Like ‘bald’ is a hair color...


11 posted on 06/08/2009 11:17:45 AM PDT by MyTwoCopperCoins (I don't have a license to kill; I have a learner's permit.)
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To: ventanax5

Those poor Muslims were constantly harassed in their home countries in Africa, Asia and Europe, by those mean Christians and Jews.

Muhammed always said that the best times in his life were when he used to bathe in Lake Victoria.


12 posted on 06/08/2009 11:21:36 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: ventanax5

A good article.


13 posted on 06/08/2009 11:22:00 AM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: pnh102

Karen Armstrong

You’ll find her books at your favorite bookstores. For example:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=Karen+Armstrong

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

Karen Armstrong (born 14 November 1944 in Wildmoor, Worcestershire) is a British author of numerous works on comparative religion, who first rose to prominence with her highly successful A History of God. A former Catholic nun, she asserts that “All the great traditions are saying the same thing in much the same way, despite their surface differences.” They each have in common, she says, an emphasis upon the overriding importance of compassion, as expressed by way of the Golden Rule: Do not do to others what you would not have done to you.

Author of several books on the Muslim tradition, she has, since the September 11, 2001 attacks, become much in demand on the US lecture circuit. In February 2008 Armstrong called for a council of Christian, Muslim and Jewish leaders to draw up a “Charter of Compassion,” which would apply shared moral priorities to foster greater global understanding. Her interfaith initiative was awarded the $100,000 TED Prize, backed by an international conference of leading figures in the fields of design, entertainment and technology.[1][2]


14 posted on 06/08/2009 11:22:02 AM PDT by mbarker12474 (If thine enemy offend thee, give his childe a drum.)
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To: Retired Greyhound

And yet it still requires faith in the nature of things unseen.


15 posted on 06/08/2009 11:23:16 AM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: ventanax5

Except for Christ’s chasing the money-changers from the Temple, nearly all of the violence is in the OLD TESTAMENT.

Christ’s arrival fulfilled those OT prophesies and relieved those who follow Him of those OT burdens and laws — and violence.

Except that Christians and Jews share the first 5 books of the OT, I can’t speak to any violence in any other sacred Jewish writings.

I CAN say that for New Testament believing Christians, we are not — unlike in the koran of islam — ordered to either convert, enslave and/or tax (if useful) or murder those who refuse to embrace islam.

Christians are only instructed to share the good news about Jesus and God’s grace under the Great Commission, letting the hearer of that good news embrace it or reject it.

Modern Christians — REAL Christians — do not enslave or murder those who reject Christ. We believe that they will pay a far heavier price at a later time.


16 posted on 06/08/2009 11:25:55 AM PDT by Dick Bachert
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To: ventanax5

Are Muslims more likely to kill others in 2009? YES. Only an idiot would think otherwise.


17 posted on 06/08/2009 11:28:13 AM PDT by SampleMan (Socialism enslaves you & kills your soul.)
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To: Ramius

Exacto! How can there be “no God” if there isn’t first a God? Get it?


18 posted on 06/08/2009 11:29:27 AM PDT by Retired Greyhound
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins

I found this elsewhere, but it is mildly amusing :)

Atheism: The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason whatsoever into self-replicating bits that then turned into dinosaurs.


19 posted on 06/08/2009 11:30:40 AM PDT by rom (Obama '12 slogan: Let's keep on hopin'!)
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins
Of course--and Islam is merely the worship of Allah.

Full Stop.

Silly, isn't it?

20 posted on 06/08/2009 11:31:16 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: ventanax5
So announces former nun and self-professed “freelance monotheist,” Karen Armstrong.

Let's say charitably that Karen's strong suit isn't history.

21 posted on 06/08/2009 11:31:30 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Ramius

http://www.meforum.org/2159/are-judaism-and-christianity-as-violent-as-islam

yes. a good article.

every christian (and every american, for that matter) should compare the conventional wisdom about the crusades with the reality.


22 posted on 06/08/2009 11:32:37 AM PDT by mbarker12474 (If thine enemy offend thee, give his childe a drum.)
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To: mbarker12474
Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades
23 posted on 06/08/2009 11:34:16 AM PDT by MrB (Go Galt now, save Bowman for later)
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To: ShadowAce

No it isn’t.

The Quran, and all its violence, is also part of what gives meaning to this Allah character.

Without one, the other is meaningless!


24 posted on 06/08/2009 11:35:06 AM PDT by MyTwoCopperCoins (I don't have a license to kill; I have a learner's permit.)
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To: Retired Greyhound

Nazis were old-fashioned pagans.


25 posted on 06/08/2009 11:35:37 AM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: rom

Well, it’s funny, but what’s hilarious is the story of a supposed infallible, omnipotent being having to test its own creation.


26 posted on 06/08/2009 11:36:26 AM PDT by MyTwoCopperCoins (I don't have a license to kill; I have a learner's permit.)
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins
The Quran, and all its violence, is also part of what gives meaning to this Allah character.

This is true--and the big atheistic regimes of the 20th century saw Christianity and Judaism as challenges to State authority--the god of those atheistic regimes--and so atheism killed off the Christians and Jews.

The initial post regarding this was correct.

27 posted on 06/08/2009 11:37:56 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins

>.a supposed infallible, omnipotent being having to test its own creation.

Omnipotency and Eternity can get boring.

Hence, you need entertainment.

Hence, humans.


28 posted on 06/08/2009 11:39:51 AM PDT by swarthyguy ("We may be crazy in Pakistan, but not completely out of our minds," ISI Gen. Ahmed Shujaa Pasha)
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To: ShadowAce
This is true--and the big atheistic regimes of the 20th century saw Christianity and Judaism as challenges to State authority--the god of those atheistic regimes--and so atheism killed off the Christians and Jews.

It's not the fault of Atheism that someone kills people for a grip on power, and political mobility.

Atheism is merely not believing in a certain product of the human imagination, and that's it.

29 posted on 06/08/2009 11:41:09 AM PDT by MyTwoCopperCoins (I don't have a license to kill; I have a learner's permit.)
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To: Dick Bachert
nearly all of the violence is in the OLD TESTAMENT

And... other than Joshua's entry into Canaan (with God's command to exterminate this and that foe) and David's killings to build the Jewish state, most of OT violence is the Jews getting their a**es kicked. And in these situations, it was the waywardness of the Jews and their kings that lead God to use pagan rulers (Assyria, Babylon, et al.) to do the kicking. Life in the OT was solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. Christ offered a revolutionary alternative. Christians took him up on it. Life under Muhammed remains nasty, brutish, and short, as that is what Muhammed and his Quran and his successors practiced and preached. Folks can check this out themselves by actually reading the Bible and Quran, and reading the actual history of Christian vs Muslim civilization.

30 posted on 06/08/2009 11:41:26 AM PDT by mbarker12474 (If thine enemy offend thee, give his childe a drum.)
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins

Depends if it is militant atheism or merely personal atheism.

Me, I view my and my tribe’s very existence, despite concerted efforts of the entire world (at various times) to destroy us, as proof of the G-d of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

Indeed, I view the world’s bizarre desire to kill my tribe (for no apparent reason) as proof of the world’s rebellion against G-d, and thus of G-d Himself. The world’s hatred of Israel is so bizarre and nonsensical that it almost must be supernatural.

(These are not the only proofs, of course -— for there can be no “proof” of such things, just feathers on the scale.)


31 posted on 06/08/2009 11:41:47 AM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: ventanax5

It is moronic to compare the Old Testament violence of thousands of years ago with the vicious, sadistic, murderous behavior that routinely is practiced by today’s muzzies.


32 posted on 06/08/2009 11:43:56 AM PDT by Redbob (W.W.J.B.D.: "What Would Jack Bauer Do?")
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins

Atheism as practiced is an evangelical religion. The adherents try to convert others to their religious beliefs, mock the beliefs of others, try to establish atheism as the de-facto state religion through the courts.

A religion does not require a god, just a belief system involving a god. Atheism is a belief system around the idea the there is no God.


33 posted on 06/08/2009 11:46:12 AM PDT by MediaMole
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins
the story of a supposed infallible, omnipotent being having to test its own creation

God tests the millions of pieces of creation that have free will. Will they choose to cleave to Him - their literal Maker - or will they do the other thing? That is the test.

34 posted on 06/08/2009 11:48:03 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins
It wasn't merely for a grip on power. It was insistence that the State come first--above God or family. It was setting themselves up as objects of worship.

That's where (spiritual) emptiness leads.

35 posted on 06/08/2009 11:49:42 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: ShadowAce

In order for the state to assume the powers of life and death and definition of morality,

atheism MUST first be enforced. Otherwise, people have an unappealable source of the definition of right and wrong, and it isn’t the state.

The denial and removal of God from society is a pre-requisite for total statism.


36 posted on 06/08/2009 11:51:21 AM PDT by MrB (Go Galt now, save Bowman for later)
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To: Jewbacca
Jews have been shown exceptional tolerance, by the Hindus in India. They have been accepted by them there, for eons.

It's only the religions that have spun off of Judaism's base that view it with vengeance, or used to. Because, in many ways more than one, the derivative religions based their existence on changing the status-quo of Judaism.

Sort of like the Protestant/ Catholic divide, or, the Shia/ Sunni divide. One thrives on denying the other.

37 posted on 06/08/2009 11:51:21 AM PDT by MyTwoCopperCoins (I don't have a license to kill; I have a learner's permit.)
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To: MediaMole

Truly, if the atheists simply did not believe in the existance of God, and had no further agenda,

they wouldn’t be actively working to destroy everyone else’s belief.


38 posted on 06/08/2009 11:52:31 AM PDT by MrB (Go Galt now, save Bowman for later)
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To: agere_contra

A being created by an infallible being, should technically not err when given free choices as well...


39 posted on 06/08/2009 11:52:37 AM PDT by MyTwoCopperCoins (I don't have a license to kill; I have a learner's permit.)
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins
Atheism is just not believing in supernatural beings produced by Man’s imagination.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It is impossible for there to be a religious vacuum. In a sentient being only 3 possible states can exist:

1) A godless worldview
2) A God-centered worldview
2) Not sure

The above is axiomatic.

Each worldview has political, religious, and cultural consequences that are **never** neutral. This to is axiomatic.

40 posted on 06/08/2009 11:54:08 AM PDT by wintertime
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To: wintertime

One more to ponder:

More than one god.


41 posted on 06/08/2009 11:55:51 AM PDT by MyTwoCopperCoins (I don't have a license to kill; I have a learner's permit.)
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins
God-centered can be either singular or plural.
42 posted on 06/08/2009 11:57:42 AM PDT by wintertime
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To: wintertime

Okay...


43 posted on 06/08/2009 11:58:31 AM PDT by MyTwoCopperCoins (I don't have a license to kill; I have a learner's permit.)
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins
Atheism is merely not believing in a certain product of the human imagination, and that's it.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Please read post #40.

Atheism is religious worlview. Like God-centered and agnostic, atheism is never politically, culturally, or religiously neutral.

One’s worldview ( atheistic, God-centered, or agnostic) will have non-neutral political, cultural, and religious consequences. These consequences are not neutral for the individual or for society.

44 posted on 06/08/2009 12:02:26 PM PDT by wintertime
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To: Dick Bachert

“nearly all of the violence is in the OLD TESTAMENT”

And all of it is: (A) either an example of the consequences of disobeying G-d’s will or (B) candidly deserved.

(A) Most of the killing was due to screw ups by by tribesmen -— e.g., David decided to get lucky with Bathsheba -— not “punishment” from G-d so much as “fruit” of sin.

(B) I heard people complaining about the treatment of Cananites the other day (where most of the killing is). Cananites burned children alive as sacrifices and practiced beastiality, among other lovely practice -— singled out for destruction by G-d

Similarly, the Philistines were such bastards the Eqyptians recorded their sea attacks.

Bronze age was a rough time.


45 posted on 06/08/2009 12:03:20 PM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: ShadowAce
It wasn't merely for a grip on power. It was insistence that the State come first--above God or family. It was setting themselves up as objects of worship.

Well, religion can be, and has been, and still is, manipulated in the same way. Like I said earlier, it is not the fault of Atheism that men used it to further their own goals. Atheism is just not believing in certain figments of Man's imagination. That's all.

That's where (spiritual) emptiness leads.

That's highly subjective. One man's spiritual treasure, is another's garbage.

46 posted on 06/08/2009 12:05:47 PM PDT by MyTwoCopperCoins (I don't have a license to kill; I have a learner's permit.)
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To: ventanax5

Given that Jews and Christians have been around longer, I’d say yes. But what do I know?


47 posted on 06/08/2009 12:07:29 PM PDT by Phlap (REDNECK@LIBARTS.EDU)
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins

A being created by an infallible being, should technically not err when given free choices as well...

why?

Mel


48 posted on 06/08/2009 12:08:04 PM PDT by melsec (A Proud Aussie)
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins
A being created by an infallible being, should technically not err when given free choices as well.

Using your Free Will for evil is not an error, in the sense of a mistake: "I was given two choices which both looked ok and I happened to pick the wrong one".

Choosing to sin is not an unlucky guess, it is a deliberate act of rejection against the source of goodness.

The fact that you or I can both, at any time, reject the Creator of the Universe is not a design flaw. The whole point of Free Will is that we are free. If we were not free to choose God - or free to reject him - then we would be stones: - the whole of our human reality would have no meaning.

49 posted on 06/08/2009 12:08:32 PM PDT by agere_contra
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To: MyTwoCopperCoins

It may not be as funny as you think to God ;-)

“Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?”

Plainly put — if that’s the way God IS, then you have no right to complain about how He uses His Creation - since you are but a created being for His pleasure and purpose.

Or even more plainly, don’t complain if the cop gives you a ticket even though you *feel* that the speed limit should be 10 mph higher.


50 posted on 06/08/2009 12:08:37 PM PDT by rom (Obama '12 slogan: Let's keep on hopin'!)
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