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Pastor's comments on Tiller 'unbiblical'
One News Now ^ | 6/8/2009 | Allie Martin

Posted on 06/08/2009 3:42:07 PM PDT by lasereye

The president of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) is repudiating statements made by a former convention official regarding President Barack Obama and the recent murder of abortionist George Tiller.

On a recent webcast of his daily radio talk show, Wiley Drake, former second vice-president of the SBC, called last Sunday's murder of Tiller "an answer to prayer." Then during an interview with Alan Colmes on Fox News Radio, Drake said he was praying the same type of "imprecatory prayer" against the president of the United States.

For years, Drake has encouraged the practice of praying words of judgment found throughout the Book of Psalm, back to God, against enemies. But Dr. Johnny Hunt, pastor of First Baptist Church of Woodstock, Georgia, and president of the SBC, says Drake's comments are out of line.

"[That's a] terrible statement, [a] very unbiblical statement," Hunt responds. "I'm still encouraged that the [Book of] Proverbs teaches that God has the water in a channel -- and my prayer has always that God would turn hearts."

Hunt also referenced the Book of 1 Timothy, which encourages Christians to pray for those in authority.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: abortion; christianradio; sbc; southernbaptist; tiller; wileydrake
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1 posted on 06/08/2009 3:42:07 PM PDT by lasereye
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To: lasereye

I always pray that God will stop evil. How He chooses to do it is His business.


2 posted on 06/08/2009 3:47:23 PM PDT by pray4liberty (http://www.foundersvalues.com/)
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To: lasereye
Wiley Drake, former second vice-president of the SBC

My new hero!

3 posted on 06/08/2009 3:48:59 PM PDT by Recon Dad (Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum - MARSOC DAD)
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To: Recon Dad

He’s an idiot.


4 posted on 06/08/2009 3:51:01 PM PDT by Patrick1 (I'm not calling in sick; I'm calling in gone!)
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To: Recon Dad

My hereos do not pray that people be murdered and my God does not answer the prayers of those who pray that a human be murdered. However, He may have a place to send those who pray for people to be murdered.


5 posted on 06/08/2009 4:00:02 PM PDT by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: Patrick1

Very few people are realize - or are willing to admit - that we are at war for the future of our nation.

Our President is a Socialist.

We sent American men to die in a war to stop socialism.


6 posted on 06/08/2009 4:02:28 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: trumandogz

Tried reading the Psalms?


7 posted on 06/08/2009 4:03:49 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

That all may be true but it has nothing to do with this fool.


8 posted on 06/08/2009 4:06:46 PM PDT by Patrick1 (I'm not calling in sick; I'm calling in gone!)
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To: Recon Dad

If that is the way he chooses to pray it is between him and GOD.


9 posted on 06/08/2009 4:06:49 PM PDT by Carry me back
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To: Recon Dad

It is funny how we can go around the world fighting to help others. But we are supposed to sit by and watch our own country be destroyed.


10 posted on 06/08/2009 4:09:26 PM PDT by Carry me back
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To: pray4liberty
I always pray that God will stop evil.

"Deliver us from evil." Ultimately it is not up to ourselves.

11 posted on 06/08/2009 4:10:03 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: lasereye

Life would have been much better if Tiller had gotten an enlightenment and joined the Pro-Life movement.

Our Lord works in mysterious ways.

And the big question is, who else was in on this murder? No one. The killer took things into his own hands instead of trusting Our Lord to make it right.


12 posted on 06/08/2009 4:12:37 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: trumandogz

We can see you aren’t big on the heroes of the bible then. Or you simply reject all those parts of it which you personally don’t like.

Psalm 109:8 comes to mind.
You don’t seem to comprehend that God has all power and all authority to accomplish his purposes. Sometimes he uses human agencies.

We are allowed to pray that God will remove our enemies. Jeremiah did so throughout much of the book of Lamentations.
If god uses a human agency to accomplish that, that does not make our prayer unjust.


13 posted on 06/08/2009 4:13:22 PM PDT by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: Mr Rogers
None that I recall say that we should pray that someone walk into a church a kill someone or pray that the president be assassinated.
14 posted on 06/08/2009 4:15:09 PM PDT by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: lasereye

Is it okay to pray for O to have a nervous breakdown from the pressure, a la Nebuchadnezzar?


15 posted on 06/08/2009 4:17:09 PM PDT by 1951Boomer
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To: trumandogz
None that I recall say that we should pray that someone walk into a church a kill someone or pray that the president be assassinated.

If you pray;

Psalm 109:8Let his days be few; and let another take his office.

as David did when oppressed by King Saul it doesn't specify a human agency. Disease or stroke would be fine. Prayer puts matters into gods hands, and trumandogz God has the Right, power and authority to order all things according to his will.

16 posted on 06/08/2009 4:24:28 PM PDT by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: trumandogz

Well that’s where we clearly differ. I don’t believe he was murdered at all. I do believe that Justice, real Justice was served. The fact that the majority of voters are ok with murdering innocents doesn’t alter the fact that he was murdering, and those who fulfill abortions are murders, therefore removing a murderer is A-ok in my opinion... Granted I’ll let other tools of God do the culling.

I suppose your heroes are those that do nothing more than talk about how it used to be in the old days ehh? Or perhaps those who complain about how it should be better. Wake up, it’s been 30 years and 50 millions deaths what the hell do you think we should do? Accept it? Protest? Use harsh language?

The core has a damn good addage and it’s really quite simple. “God will judge our enemies, we will provide the meeting” or perhaps a better one for you, “Forgiveness is up to God. I just hope we hurry up the meeting”

I personally hope Tiller BIH.


17 posted on 06/08/2009 4:26:14 PM PDT by light-bulb (Plures efficimur quotiens metimur a vobis; semen est sanguis Christianorum)
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To: Recon Dad

Arise, O LORD; save me, O my God: for thou hast smitten all mine enemies upon the cheek bone; thou hast broken the teeth of the ungodly. Psalm 3:7


18 posted on 06/08/2009 4:27:54 PM PDT by pray4liberty (http://www.foundersvalues.com/)
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To: trumandogz

Murder is killing an innocent person, Tiller was not innocent.

There is a time for peace and a time for war.

What tools God uses to destroy evil is of no consequence to me, only that he removes it.

And if God choose to remove more in this manner than so be it.

Blessed be the name of the Lord.


19 posted on 06/08/2009 4:29:39 PM PDT by stockpirate (The 2nd amendment protects all other rights as outlined in our constitution. Without it we fall.)
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To: Fester Chugabrew
Ultimately it is not up to ourselves.

Correct. His Will be done.

20 posted on 06/08/2009 4:30:02 PM PDT by pray4liberty (http://www.foundersvalues.com/)
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To: lasereye
On a recent webcast of his daily radio talk show, Wiley Drake, former second vice-president of the SBC, called last Sunday's murder of Tiller "an answer to prayer." Then during an interview with Alan Colmes on Fox News Radio, Drake said he was praying the same type of "imprecatory prayer" against the president of the United States.

Come on guys, this kind of crap only hurts our side. Keep everything on the up and up.

21 posted on 06/08/2009 4:37:40 PM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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To: lasereye

My wife has prayed similar prayers against people she is forced to work with.

Today, an eight year employee who was a favored employee until only a few weeks ago was escorted off the premises.

Don’t underestimate the power of prayer if you are in step with God.


22 posted on 06/08/2009 4:39:38 PM PDT by Balding_Eagle (Overproduction, one of the top five worries for the American farmer.)
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To: lasereye

“[That’s a] terrible statement, [a] very unbiblical statement,” Hunt responds.

Moron. He basically says the Bible is unbiblical.

Just wow!


23 posted on 06/08/2009 4:40:08 PM PDT by Enoughofthissocialism (Obama... Destroying America for Islam since January 2009.)
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To: pray4liberty
I respectfully disagree, brother. The psalms are STILL the work of God, and praying them against vile enemies and the forces of darkness is a good thing. Always was. Always will be.

Jesus never said to throw out the older work of God.

Dominus vobiscum.

24 posted on 06/08/2009 4:42:29 PM PDT by Enoughofthissocialism (Obama... Destroying America for Islam since January 2009.)
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To: trumandogz

Psalms 137

8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us-

9 he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

I don’t believe in praying for someone to kill someone else - if I thought it was God’s will, I’d do it. And if it isn’t, why would I pray for it?

However, I do think it is biblical to pray, “Lord, bring him to judgment or repentance.” That is my prayer for Obama.


25 posted on 06/08/2009 4:43:01 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: lasereye
Pastor Drake is wrong.
I'm familiar with the series of 'imprecatory' pslams, but it is my understanding from those more learned than I, that the Hebrew verb tenses of the Psalms can be 'flexible'. I.e., past, present, future - and they must be taken in their context. 'The curses' are better read as a reality projection of what will happen to sinners.
The wicked will be turned into hell (and all the nations that forget God).
We don't wish it.
We don't pray for it.
But it will happen.
Tiller's murder is a bona fide tragedy. Most likely, based on his walk, he was dispatched into the land where the worm never dieth, and the fire is not quenched. We don't wish this on anyone. It is satan who hates men's souls - not us. We wish Tiller had come to repentance. We are all sinners, and we know that the most vile of sinners can be saved. Tiller had his opportunity cut off. That is a true tragedy.

And rather than praying "against" the current occupant we should be praying for mercy, and God-fearing Leaders (even though we have been a 'nation that forgot God'). How God accomplishes this is in HIS hands. Only HE can change hearts of stone into hearts of flesh.

26 posted on 06/08/2009 4:46:52 PM PDT by El Cid (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house...)
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To: Enoughofthissocialism
The psalms are STILL the work of God, and praying them against vile enemies and the forces of darkness is a good thing. Always was. Always will be.

No disagreement with you there. Read some of my previous posts. I agree with the Will of God, and the Will of God is found in the Word of God.

Oh and I'm a sister, not a brother. ;)

27 posted on 06/08/2009 5:09:10 PM PDT by pray4liberty (http://www.foundersvalues.com/)
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To: Mr Rogers

“Tried reading the Psalms?”

Your Old Testament “god” that you project is not The God of Jesus Christ. I don’t think Jesus and the all merciful God he told us about would acknowledge anyone’s prayer for murder, a violation of one of His own Old Testament commandments. I pray to a God that prayed for those that crucified him asking God to forgive them. I haven’t a clue what kind of “god” you’re talking about but you can bet your soul it’s not the God of Christianity.


28 posted on 06/08/2009 5:10:58 PM PDT by DaGman
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To: Mr Rogers
However, I do think it is biblical to pray, “Lord, bring him to judgment or repentance.”

I add to that, "and May Thy Will be Done."

29 posted on 06/08/2009 5:16:17 PM PDT by pray4liberty (http://www.foundersvalues.com/)
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To: lasereye
- and my prayer has always that God would turn hearts.”
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I pray they have the **experiences** bestowed upon them that will lead to a change of heart.

The prayer is a bit mean spirited, but then I pray that I, too, will have the experiences I need as well to make it back to God when I die.

30 posted on 06/08/2009 5:28:23 PM PDT by wintertime
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To: DaGman

See post #22


31 posted on 06/08/2009 5:37:56 PM PDT by Balding_Eagle (Overproduction, one of the top five worries for the American farmer.)
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To: light-bulb
Well that’s where we clearly differ. I don’t believe he was murdered at all. I do believe that Justice, real Justice was served.

No, Justice has not and will not be served as abortion is still legal and the State of Kansas does will not use the death penalty for Tiller's killer. However, that is the choose of the people of Kansas who do not wish to execute a murderer like Roeder.

However, the good people of Kansas will see to it that Roeder spends the rest of his miserable life in a dark cage.

So at least, there is some justice.

32 posted on 06/08/2009 5:47:49 PM PDT by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: trumandogz

Ah yes. Because what is legal is always right? Because the majority always chooses what is right? You and I will never have an opinion that is similar on this issue.

Tiller deserved so much more than he got in my opinion, but I know many already know of my views. God is NOT mocked my friend. However, and whatever tools God chooses to use who am I to question.

I dislike how some ignorant people can choose abortion for no more thought than it’s legal, and rationalize that killing their son/daughter is justified simply because it’s legal. Sickening, and appalling. Yet I wonder how large the percentage of folks who just took the easy way out, and killed their child because it was paid for, legal, and becoming the hip thing to rid your life of your responsibility?

I believe Roeder will be acquitted. His mental fortitude clearly was suffering, I mean we can’t put him on trial. It’s really too bad, we should provide the utmost care for him to help him overcome his adversity. I for one would welcome him into my home, and invite him to my place of worship. I’m sure he would repent of his act; as we are all just men and we have limits, his were reached and he simply lost his “mind” to react and take action, and give voice to the voiceless.


33 posted on 06/08/2009 6:08:57 PM PDT by light-bulb (Plures efficimur quotiens metimur a vobis; semen est sanguis Christianorum)
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To: luvEastTenn

I told my sweet hubby the other day that I’d like to have some kind of physical discomfort happen to Barack every time he lies. Such things such as hiccups, burping, passing gas, and heat rash could indicate that he is lying.


34 posted on 06/08/2009 6:19:50 PM PDT by Irish Queen (4 square Irish)
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To: El Cid

I’m not sure what your beliefs of God are, nor do I know your views on forgiveness, there are many interpretations. I personally believe that God is not on a linear timeline as mankind is. He sees the beginning the end as we see our morning Coffee and biscuit. That being said, I believe that if ever in a mans span of time he/she would ever repent God will know. He is all knowing and understands the views of our soul better than ourselves right?

We will never NEVER know another man’s judgement while we live on Earth, so it’s not even worth discussing.

So you can expect my opinion of Tiller’s killing as not a tragedy. But rather an end to the problem he presented.

While some of you pray and hope these abortionists repent, I choose to rather pray for an expedited deliverance for our innocents, and if all abortionists were killed tomorrow I shall only cry joyful tears. While some try to properly word their prayers to make them sound more holy, I pray for action and wisdom.

God doesn’t just need a nation of prayer givers friend, he needs soldiers and Action, read James.


35 posted on 06/08/2009 6:25:46 PM PDT by light-bulb (Plures efficimur quotiens metimur a vobis; semen est sanguis Christianorum)
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To: light-bulb
His mental fortitude clearly was suffering, I mean we can’t put him on trial.

Yes, in this country will put people on trail who murder, even if their mental fortitude was suffering at the time of their crime. Perhaps, you can call me a conservative, but I do not buy into all that nonsense about one being "not guilty" due to "insanity."

It’s really too bad, we should provide the utmost care for him to help him overcome his adversity.

Yes, I agree:


36 posted on 06/08/2009 6:27:40 PM PDT by trumandogz (The Democrats are driving us to Socialism at 100 MPH -The GOP is driving us to Socialism at 97.5 MPH)
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To: DaGman

Judges 5:

“1 On that day Deborah and Barak son of Abinoam sang this song...

24 “Most blessed of women be Jael,
the wife of Heber the Kenite,
most blessed of tent-dwelling women.

25 He asked for water, and she gave him milk;
in a bowl fit for nobles she brought him curdled milk.

26 Her hand reached for the tent peg,
her right hand for the workman’s hammer.
She struck Sisera, she crushed his head,
she shattered and pierced his temple.

27 At her feet he sank,
he fell; there he lay.
At her feet he sank, he fell;
where he sank, there he fell-dead.


37 posted on 06/08/2009 6:32:30 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: trumandogz

I suppose I really should have spelled out when the sarcasm was coming. Obviously you see the irony right?


38 posted on 06/08/2009 6:39:23 PM PDT by light-bulb (Plures efficimur quotiens metimur a vobis; semen est sanguis Christianorum)
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To: light-bulb
While some of you pray and hope these abortionists repent, I choose to rather pray for an expedited deliverance for our innocents, and if all abortionists were killed tomorrow I shall only cry joyful tears.

My prayer that they not be aborted in the first place. God can end abortion tomorrow, if He so Wills. He can strike all those who would do it without a thought barren as a desert, if it would save their souls. Conception belongs to the Lord.

No "unwanted" pregnancies would mean the end of the abortion business.

39 posted on 06/08/2009 6:40:58 PM PDT by pray4liberty (http://www.foundersvalues.com/)
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To: light-bulb
I’m not sure what your beliefs of God are, …

Biblical

…So you can expect my opinion of Tiller’s killing as not a tragedy. But rather an end to the problem he presented…

Because he was ‘predestined’ not to repent?
Any lost soul is a tragedy.

…God doesn’t just need a nation of prayer givers friend, he needs soldiers and Action, read James.

?? Have you read James recently? The reality is, as we both know, God doesn’t need anything. We need God. The last Chapter of James, verse 8 to the end of the book:

James 5

8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Elijah did not pray that someone would 'off' Ahab and Jezebel. He did pray for Judgment on the nation - but not murder.
I also do not recall any passages that provide for cheerleading for murderers. The devil was a murderer from the beginning. We do not need to emulate him – nor congratulate those that follow him. It is the State’s function to be a terror to those that do evil (Romans 13). And if we have leaders who have no fear of God before their eyes – than we can pray, and work the ballot boxes to effect change… And there may even come of time when we must defend the Constitutional Republic from enemies. But we don’t defend or excuse murder. God IS in Control – as you noted: HE knows the beginning from the end. HE does not need us to act impulsively, or impatiently, to override HIS commands.

I Samuel 15

22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

40 posted on 06/08/2009 7:02:37 PM PDT by El Cid (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house...)
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To: El Cid

Read Judges...


41 posted on 06/08/2009 7:04:45 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Mr Rogers
Read Judges...

Which part?
Judges, ah yes, the accounting of a people that forgot God and which "every man did that which was right in his own eyes".

Judges 2

10...and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel.
11 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim:
12 And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger.
13 And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth.

Lots of mayhem went on in those days - which is hardly surprising for a people that forget God ...

Psalm 9:17
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

42 posted on 06/08/2009 7:20:07 PM PDT by El Cid (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house...)
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To: Enoughofthissocialism
Jesus never said to throw out the older work of God.

many here forget that...

43 posted on 06/08/2009 8:41:08 PM PDT by wardaddy (Obama may lie better than Slick did.)
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To: Balding_Eagle

Re: Post 22

I don’t know the circumstances, but how can you be so sure that wasn’t the work of Satan, this person losing his/her job.


44 posted on 06/08/2009 8:48:45 PM PDT by DaGman
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To: El Cid

You make valid points. However, how can you say there is a lost soul, we don’t know. I agree any lost soul is a tragedy in theory, but then again those who can live life and not see all the signs all around us, have chosen. All we know is that which we can touch, and see on Earth. Who knows. The rest we take on faith and on the spirit.

But any connotation or implication that Tiller could be doing God’s work is an abomination to me. Though you haven’t said this I feel like there is some link here. I know we won’t see eye to eye on this issue. Tiller killed 60,000+, and this one man who removed Tiller 1. Perhaps God is watching our response to the killing of the innocent and appalled how we can just smugly sit and be completely apathetic to this crime? We don’t know. We also don’t know if Roeder wasn’t moved by the spirit right? We don’t know. But I can tell you, Tiller was no innocent. Period.

Yes, I know James, and have read James actually quite recently. The issue is very simple to me. At some point man reaches the end of their patience, enduring is one thing, being a lamb to slaughter another. This feminization of God’s word, this concept that God want’s us to do nothing but wait, and endure is simply not what I believe. If mankind doesn’t have the duty to protect the weak and the innocent, do you believe prayer alone is your answer? There is no glory in suffering, it’s merely an excuse for the weak who choose to abide by their masters(Whether financial bondage, Job, spouse, etc) and pray for deliverance, that they themselves even confronted with freedom would likely never accept.

I’m way off topic now, and ranting, but in the meantime, pray for all of us who feel that at some point more than talk must be done. In the end if the strong didn’t defend the weak, you and I wouldn’t be here.

There is in fact a time to kill, a time to pray, and a time to wait. The issue is understanding well enough to interpret when we are in which phase, and be willing to respond.


45 posted on 06/09/2009 6:07:00 AM PDT by light-bulb (Plures efficimur quotiens metimur a vobis; semen est sanguis Christianorum)
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To: light-bulb
Believe it or not, I agree with almost the entirety of what you wrote in Post 45, but let me dig out a few gray areas where we probably differ a bit - lest this would make for a dull reply...

Tiller killed 60,000+, and this one man who removed Tiller 1. Perhaps God is watching our response to the killing of the innocent and appalled how we can just smugly sit and be completely apathetic to this crime? We don’t know. We also don’t know if Roeder wasn’t moved by the spirit right? We don’t know. But I can tell you, Tiller was no innocent. Period.

Oh, I am a bit familiar with the numbers. Roughly 47 Million babies murdered on the altar of "free" sex and convenience (our modern day version of Molech) vs. 5 Abortionists (Molech's High Priests) - since Roe vs. Wade.
And yes, Tiller was amongst the most egregious of the lot. Still, when I consider the Christians that were getting hacked in the early church -- I cannot recall any words from Paul or Peter or John encouraging the new Believers to murder the Roman 'dogs' - since they obviously had it coming. I admit, it would have been hard not to -- but their words were pretty much the same: 'I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand ...'. And you are right - we should not be apathetic - but we don't fight sin with another sin.
Judgment is due on our nation - like a ton of bricks. And perhaps the election of ungodly leaders is part of that Judgment...
As to the 'implication that Tiller could be doing God's work'? Oh far from it. Tiller was doing man's work. We are all hopeless sinners - and our depraved minds and nature - before the LORD saves us and indwells the Holy Spirit - is capable of anything (...although I admit - I suspect the evil that Tiller and his ilk do/did would have made Attila the Hun puke).
But that said -- Jesus came for sinners. HE can save the most depraved individual.
Paul thought he was doing God's work by persecuting Christians and having them put to death. He was on his way to continue this evil work - but in an instant Christ changed him. And the Holy Spirit used him to pen 14 mighty epistles in the Bible. A well meaning Chrisitian certainly could have justified killing Paul - for all the mayhem he committed - but God IS in control. We need to wait on the LORD and not fight sin with sin.

This feminization of God’s word, this concept that God want’s us to do nothing but wait, and endure is simply not what I believe. If mankind doesn’t have the duty to protect the weak and the innocent, do you believe prayer alone is your answer? There is no glory in suffering, it’s merely an excuse for the weak who choose to abide by their masters(Whether financial bondage, Job, spouse, etc) and pray for deliverance, that they themselves even confronted with freedom would likely never accept.

I agree we are not to do 'nothing' - but there are bounds. Jesus was 'meek and mild' -- yet HE was the mightiest man on Earth. He backed down from no one. HE didn't engage in violence (knowing that HE could destroy the world in an instant), but HE called out the hypocrisy of the self-righteous, HE called sinners to repentance, and comforted the infirmed and downhearted. But being hated, HE did not hate. HE pitied.
We should call our nation to repent from the vile sin of this baby butchery. We need to elect people who fear God.

We need to defend ourselves, and the defenseless -- but we also need to understand when we take that other life we very well could be dispatching someone to the abyss of eternal hell. As you mentioned earlier - God knows who are HIS, and not a one will fall - but we should engage in these measures as a last recourse. We should always remember we are here for a very short time. Our job is to spread the Word (sow the seed) - and God will bring in the increase. In our walk satan and his demons will try to distract us and torment us - but Christ won that victory on Calvary - and we keep that in mind no matter what gets thrown our way. God Bless.

46 posted on 06/09/2009 1:14:06 PM PDT by El Cid (Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house...)
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To: DaGman

My wife doesn’t pray to Satan, she prays to the Lord Jesus Christ.


47 posted on 06/09/2009 1:19:30 PM PDT by Balding_Eagle (Overproduction, one of the top five worries for the American farmer.)
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To: El Cid

You speak very wise words and there is in fact solid biblical truth in them. And I can’t find a fault with anything you have said. I certainly don’t support going about sinning on a whim, and well all should flee from sin. But there is in each of us, a degree which we can no longer cope. Whether that is for the slaughter of innocent, or the injustice perpetuated by a government that has forgot it’s people, but rather lives to enslave it’s populace. We are all finite creatures and things will drive us over the edge.
I hope you and everyone here has never had to make that ultimate decision to end another’s life, but some have. Some have looked through a scope or launched or supported fire missions at another and known that in seconds someone would end. Those who make that decision, most don’t revel in joy and accolades but rather carry a heavy burden for the remainder of their life, not knowing if it was just or not. The only way to accept this is to identify that it WAS just, and there are times to act, especially when one is saving the innocent, or defending a way of life.
All christians are devoted to becoming that which we can never truly become, that separation, that divide is large, but we always try to overcome, but we all will fall short. I know I wish some decisions would never have to be made, but that doesn’t change the reality of what is.

I have no doubts that Roeder believed that what he was doing was the last straw, I’m sure he had been engaged with Pro-LIfe for sometime. I honestly feel that he did snap. He could no longer cope with the crimes that are being committed to our young. I can’t fault him for that. I know we all understand that murder is wrong, but so are a multitude of sins, all of them forgivable but one.

I understand that this situation we are in, is again one of the people, the people have turned away from God that is crystal clear. We need to fix the root of the issue to help protect the young, and place biblical morality on the culture again. But I’m pretty certain that reversing this is near impossible with the population demographics the way they are, and certainly our dismal population rate for Christians in this country is simply a drop compared to the Islam etc. There is no going back, all we can do is try to make the best decisions we can with what we have, and to support our cause and be willing to act.

All of this is strictly an opinion, but I very much value yours. I would never advocate doing anything without serious consideration.


48 posted on 06/09/2009 1:55:57 PM PDT by light-bulb (Plures efficimur quotiens metimur a vobis; semen est sanguis Christianorum)
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To: pray4liberty
Oh and I'm a sister, not a brother. ;)

Oops! Pardon me, ma'am.
49 posted on 06/09/2009 2:57:49 PM PDT by Enoughofthissocialism (Obama... Destroying America for Islam since January 2009.)
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To: Enoughofthissocialism

One man is dead, Babies may live, I hope to see the man who got tiller in heaven, just because the goverment says something is right such as abortion it’s wrong and if the goverment, Say’s killing a tiller is wrong doesn’t make it wrong.He saved babies lives. This is one time God may have told him to do it, who Knows!!!!


50 posted on 06/09/2009 11:41:44 PM PDT by factmart
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