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Groundbreaking Set for New Jersey Transit Tunnel Under Hudson
New York Times ^ | June 7, 2009 | PATRICK McGEEHAN

Posted on 06/08/2009 4:30:45 PM PDT by ml/nj

New Jersey officials have been planning the next train tunnel under the Hudson River for so long that it is already on its third name. This month, work is scheduled to begin on the Mass Transit Tunnel — formerly known as the Trans-Hudson Express and, before that, Access to the Region’s Core — more than 15 years after it was conceived.

A ceremonial groundbreaking was set for Monday alongside a highway in North Bergen, N.J., the site of the first small piece of what could be the biggest transit project in the country. The tunnel, which is expected to take eight years to complete, bears a current price tag of $8.7 billion. That is about $6 billion less than the so-called Big Dig highway tunnel in Boston cost but about $6 billion more than the project’s original price.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Government; US: New Jersey; US: New York
KEYWORDS: bigdig; hudson; tunnel
So we're going to have our own big dig here in NJ. 8.7 f*****g BILLION, and everyone knows that that will just be the down payment.

I've lived in Northern NJ for the past 35+ years. I live about a half hour west of Manhattan and go into the city probably as often as anyone who doesn't work there. I was conditioned during my youth growing up on Long Island a similar distance from the city to regularly use the Long Island Railroad. But I have NEVER taken a train into Manhatten from NJ. Not only that, but with the exception of my wife who used the train for a few months while working in NYC, I do not know anyone who has ever even talked about using one of the trains. (Correction: My daughter took a train out of the city on 9/12 when all she wanted to do was get out of there, and I picked her up at a station a convenient 35 minutes away from our house.) The closest line to me is a "commuter" line which means they have one track and they only have eastbound trains in the morning and westbound trains in the evening. I'm not sure whether this is still true but the trains used to only go to Hoboken, NJ, from where one had to take a PATH train (glorified subway) which only has a half dozen stations in NYC. From what I understand some people actually use the Big Dig Tunnel.

This is a boondoggle which will make the Big Dig look like the Little Dipper.

ML/NJ

1 posted on 06/08/2009 4:30:45 PM PDT by ml/nj
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To: ml/nj

Politicians will spend recklessly until we toss them out of office.


2 posted on 06/08/2009 4:33:06 PM PDT by Rapscallion (Empathy is the opposite of justice.)
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To: ml/nj

Does the Mob have job listings?


3 posted on 06/08/2009 4:33:36 PM PDT by tired1 (When the Devil eats you there's only one way out.)
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To: ml/nj
ML/NJ: The NE Corridor line was always packed when I used to take it from Princeton to NYC. ANYTHING to minimize auto traffic in Manhattan is a good thing.

This tunnel, however, is woefully unecessary. The old Penn railroad tunnel is more than sufficient for current needs.

4 posted on 06/08/2009 4:33:36 PM PDT by Clemenza (Remember our Korean War Veterans)
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To: ml/nj

Big Dig II


5 posted on 06/08/2009 4:42:34 PM PDT by Don Corleone ("Oil the gun..eat the cannolis. Take it to the Mattress.")
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To: Clemenza
ANYTHING to minimize auto traffic in Manhattan is a good thing.

No! REALLY NO!

Trains used to be built by private business, that had or tried to have some sense of the return on the investment they were making. The politicians who build these railroads have a different sort of return on investment in mind.

ML/NJ

6 posted on 06/08/2009 4:46:34 PM PDT by ml/nj
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To: ml/nj

Eight years to build? As a goobermint contract, likely longer. The original tunnels, still in use and built by the Pennsylvania Railroad about a hundred years ago (William Wallace Atterbury I think was the president of the PRR at the time) took nowhere near that long.


7 posted on 06/08/2009 4:46:47 PM PDT by Fred Hayek (Minnesota - You all can go to hell. I'm going to Texas.)
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To: ml/nj
BIG F*****ING DIG II"
8 posted on 06/08/2009 4:49:03 PM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: Fred Hayek
...William Wallace Atterbury I think was the president of the PRR at the time...

No, it was Alexander Cassatt. Atterbury was president of the Pennsy when the Northeast Corridor was electrified in the early Thirties.

9 posted on 06/08/2009 4:49:11 PM PDT by Publius (Gresham's Law: Bad victims drive good victims out of the market.)
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To: Fred Hayek

Lincoln tunnel took three years in the thirties.


10 posted on 06/08/2009 4:50:36 PM PDT by Uncle Sham
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To: Fred Hayek
These days it seems to take them longer to REPAIR a bridge over a creek (with complete road closure during the entire course of the repair) than it took to build the George Washington Bridge.

These are the times that try men's souls, if they have any brains anyway.

ML/NJ

11 posted on 06/08/2009 4:51:52 PM PDT by ml/nj
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To: Clemenza
That's interesting, I do not recall seeing you imput on the design studies, exactly what expertise do you have in this area?
12 posted on 06/08/2009 4:51:55 PM PDT by Rumplemeyer
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To: ml/nj

They think this is going to re-habilitate corzine.


13 posted on 06/08/2009 4:52:02 PM PDT by jersey117
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To: ml/nj
When the railroad system was built it was backed by the Government with grants and outright funding and something else...The Interstate Highway System did not exist, what do you think killed the railroads.
14 posted on 06/08/2009 4:55:32 PM PDT by Rumplemeyer
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To: Uncle Sham
That was for just the tunnel, one tube was completed and opened by 1937 the second in 1938, contractor was Mason & Hanger Co. Mason & Hanger Co. also built the North Tube in 1956.

The approaches took 4 years, started in 1933, contractors for the various sections were George M Brewster & Son, Porier-McLane, B. Perini & Sons and Clinton Asphalt Co.

15 posted on 06/08/2009 5:02:21 PM PDT by Rumplemeyer
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To: Clemenza
I don't know if this project can be justified from an economic standpoint, but let's be honest here.

That segment of the Northeast Corridor Line has been running beyond its operational capacity for years -- basically since they instituted the Midtown Direct service in the mid-1990s.

16 posted on 06/08/2009 5:05:29 PM PDT by Alberta's Child (I'm out on the outskirts of nowhere . . . with ghosts on my trail, chasing me there.)
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To: Rumplemeyer
what do you think killed the railroads

Airplanes.

I doubt anyone living where I do now used a train in 1950 either. When I use public transit, I take a bus which doesn't use any Interstate highways at all. My guess is that only a small percentage of the buses that go into NYC from NJ are ever on an Interstate, not counting the absurd designation of the helix into the Lincoln Tunnel as I-495.

ML/NJ

17 posted on 06/08/2009 5:08:14 PM PDT by ml/nj
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To: Fred Hayek
I suspect the tunnel itself is actually going to be one of the easiest parts of this project.

The biggest challenge is squeezing the additional tracks and new station platforms into the area adjacent to the existing Penn Station in Manhattan. Most people have no idea how costly and time-consuming it is to do a construction project underground in a place where you have to work around existing infrastructure and utilities and reinforce building foundations as you go along.

18 posted on 06/08/2009 5:09:41 PM PDT by Alberta's Child (I'm out on the outskirts of nowhere . . . with ghosts on my trail, chasing me there.)
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To: Alberta's Child
Thank you, and that ain't half of it.

I am involved in the estimate preparation for one of the Joint Ventures, this is a Design/Build project...NO EXTRA'S...make me a tunnel from here to here (under river portion is in mud)and the land portions are in rock.

The NY station will cost as much as the under river section.

And for the ‘the Contractors are ripping us off crowd’ the only reason the Contractors are taking the tremendous risks of bidding and building this tunnel is TO MAKE A PROFIT, risk and reward theory...remember that in school

19 posted on 06/08/2009 5:22:04 PM PDT by Rumplemeyer
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To: ml/nj

They have real customers, people that work but don’t want to live in high-density high-tax NYC, so it’s not a boondoggle. It’s a logical increase in capacity, driven by a dislike of leftist life in NYC. I don’t understand your hostility. It’s pro-family and will increase NJ property values. I moved to NJ last year for job reasons and recently bought a house that is walking distance to a NJ commuter train station into Manhattan, so I’m biased the other way. I’d be anti-growth if NJ was a beautiful Shangri la where I wanted to retire, but it was paved over long ago.


20 posted on 06/08/2009 6:41:45 PM PDT by Reeses (Leftism is powered by the evil force of envy.)
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To: Reeses
They have real customers, people that work but don’t want to live in high-density high-tax NYC, so it’s not a boondoggle. It’s a logical increase in capacity, driven by a dislike of leftist life in NYC. I don’t understand your hostility. It’s pro-family and will increase NJ property values. I moved to NJ last year for job reasons and recently bought a house that is walking distance to a NJ commuter train station into Manhattan, so I’m biased the other way.

I didn't say that no one rode a train. I said no one I know rides the train. You already ride you said. So how is the new tunnel going to help you? Do you get a seat? Does anyone stand on your train? I don't know.

You also said you haven't been here long. So you might not be aware that NJ has been drawing businesses away from NYC because of the congestion and high rents there. If it becomes easier to travel into NYC some of that impetus goes away.

But I don't think it will become easier to get into NYC. This new tunnel is a boondoggle of historic proportion. They say it's been on the drawing board for 15 years, so obviously it's been rejected quite a few times by now. There's a reason.

Figure out how many new riders you think it might draw and divide it into $8.7 bil PLUS the cost of the new infrastructure to support the new riders and let me know how many centuries it will be before it even SEEMS like a good deal.

ML/NJ

21 posted on 06/08/2009 7:01:02 PM PDT by ml/nj
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To: ml/nj

Those trains, at least the midtown direct line is PACKED. Get a seat? No. Lucky to squeeze on to stand on many of them. There’s been no additional capacity available - the tunnel and lines are shared with Amtrack, and they can’t schedule more trains through it.


22 posted on 06/08/2009 7:10:56 PM PDT by whatexit
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To: ml/nj
Airplanes, no try again. I was the freight traffic not passenger traffic the railroads made their money on.

The railroads had to build their ‘road’ the trucking companies did not, Uncle Sam did, the Interstate system killed the railroads.

23 posted on 06/08/2009 7:36:06 PM PDT by Rumplemeyer
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To: Rumplemeyer
I'm just a casual observer (and taxpayer) who rides the rails alot (albeit not as much as I did when I lived in NJ).

The only time I typically see issues with congestion is at peak period, when trains are often held TWICE, once at the old "Manhattan Transfer" in Harrison/Kearny and then again at the west side cut right before you pull into Penn Station proper. Nevertheless, I don't really see that that justifies a second tunnel.

24 posted on 06/09/2009 4:50:18 AM PDT by Clemenza (Remember our Korean War Veterans)
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To: ml/nj
But I have NEVER taken a train into Manhatten from NJ.

Don't. I did recently, the first time in a number of years. It was the most unpleasant train ride I think I ever took. The train was rattly and dirty, the tracks were in terrible condition, and the conductress was stupid and arrogant. She took my ticket and minutes later accused me of not having one.

25 posted on 06/09/2009 4:57:28 AM PDT by Fresh Wind (Hey, Obama! Where's my check?)
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To: Fresh Wind
I'm going to mark you down as dissatisfied.

ML/NJ

26 posted on 06/09/2009 5:37:35 AM PDT by ml/nj
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To: ml/nj
I'm not sure whether this is still true but the trains used to only go to Hoboken, NJ

Only about half of the commuter trains, the ones to Bergen, Passaic, Essex, Union, Morris Somerset and Hunterdon Counties went to Hoboken and the PATH trains (and, in the old days, the ferry boats, now returned, I hear). The trains to downtown Newark, Elizabeth, Middlesex, Mercer, and Monmouth Counties went thru downtown Newark (intersecting the other PATH line) and into Penn Station (meeting the Long Island RR). That line is also the mainline of Amtrak, including the Acela and Metroliner trains.

27 posted on 06/09/2009 5:47:48 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla ("men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." -- Edmund Burke)
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To: ml/nj

When I was growing up, making that run meant a real train, most often pulled by a magnificent General Electric GG1 locomotive. The ride was smooth and quiet, the cars were clean, and the staff was competent and courteous.

Next time, I will take the bus.

28 posted on 06/09/2009 6:09:10 AM PDT by Fresh Wind (Hey, Obama! Where's my check?)
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To: ml/nj
Figure out how many new riders you think it might draw and divide it into $8.7 bil PLUS the cost of the new infrastructure to support the new riders and let me know how many centuries it will be before it even SEEMS like a good deal.

You're right. After running the numbers it doesn't make any financial sense. At least they are spending our money on a hard asset used and built by working people, rather than wasting it on non-workers. This puts a serious $8.7 billion hole in the march to socialism.

29 posted on 06/09/2009 8:42:51 AM PDT by Reeses (Leftism is powered by the evil force of envy.)
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To: Reeses
At least they are spending our money on a hard asset used and built by working people, rather than wasting it on non-workers.

Okay. 2000 working people at $150K per year for ten years is 3 Bil. Don't tell me the other 5.7 Bil is for materials! It's for non-workers.

(And I think it would be really tough to have 2000 people working at the same time on a tunnel.)

ML/NJ

30 posted on 06/09/2009 9:20:27 AM PDT by ml/nj
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To: AdmSmith; Berosus; bigheadfred; Convert from ECUSA; dervish; Ernest_at_the_Beach; Fred Nerks; ...

Biden gaffe: New rail tunnel being built for cars?
NJ .com | 6/9/09 | Herb Jackson
Posted on 06/08/2009 10:55:03 PM PDT by pissant
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2267796/posts

Work starts on $8.7b N.Y.-N.J. tunnel
boston | June 9, 2009
Posted on 06/09/2009 4:54:56 AM PDT by JoeProBono
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2267864/posts


31 posted on 06/10/2009 3:20:18 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/__Since Jan 3, 2004__Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
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