Posted on 06/18/2009 8:27:56 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
“So, if you aren’t looking for something, then it doesn’t exist??”
Beside the point. I was specifically repsonding to the assertion that “theists can produce credible evidence for God’s existence,” with which I disagree. I find the most oft-repeated evidence question-begging. Much of it is very weak deduction. If people didn’t have a very solid conception they were bending over backward to prove, ex nihilo nihil fit never would have convinced anybody.
God is Good. The structure of the universe is Good. And even any theory of anything otherwise related to the universe is inherently Good.
Theists and atheists both disagree with the agnostic that God is unknowable, they just have different conclusions on the answer.
Same as above.
I do not believe in atheists.
They do not exist!
any memories of that time?Very strange situation... I can remember nothing for about 2 months before or after it happened... but, after it happened, I can remember many things (including some of the dreams I had) back to when I was 2 years old.
I didn’t mean that I am any threat to myself (suicidal), but sometimes life is a real challenge.. especially recently with all of the insanities the ‘current’ government is doing.
That being said, I am definitely not scared of passing (again) and being judged at the gate.
Definitely. I am looking forward to that day :)
Oh, I forgot to mention 1 more thing;
Not that many people believe in something like dejavu... but I was having many dreams like that at least monthly for many years.... after about 10 years they started lessening until they finally stopped. I am very happy they did.
It wasn’t dejavu.. can’t remember what it’s called... pre-something or another..
Pre-cognition is the word, I believe. Getting a glimpse of happenings further down the timeline. Just pure conjecture on my part, but this could have been a side effect with your brush with the eternal.
Thanks for sharing.
No no no no... I didn’t mean suicide. I just meant that with everything going on in the world today sometimes I just wish that God would send Jesus back and get us all out of here.
What about non-theists? Do you believe in them?
Pure nonsense....heard it all before from superior Christians and it's always been nonsense. My "foundation" for knowing right-wrong was in my rearing...what I've been taught from my older generations. I don't need a book to tell me that something is right or wrong....it's called a learned behavior...I was taught right from wrong when I didn't know any better with punishment for doing wrong and reward for doing right. I was taught to respect other people and their property as "not mine" and that if I take what is "not mine", there are consequences. I don't need to believe in a god or have a book to tell me not to steal that which is not mine. As I got older, I was able to think about it more as a "would I want to be treated that way" sort of "do unto others" philosophy. You could say that my morals are pseudo-Christian morals passed on by a Christian society through my non-Christian family. You could also say that I behave more in accordance with Christian morals than a helluva lot of God-believing Christians out there.
Because the atheist has reduced such questions to mere “preferences”. Questions such as whether or not to steal, lie, cheat, murder, etc. are placed on the same level as preferences for which flavor of ice cream one prefers. This is because the atheist has no transcendant moral foundation (other than their own personal beliefs) upon which to judge right from wrong.
Just....wow....how superior you must be. My decision not to steal everthing I see or kill everyone I see is even with my chocolate-dipped waffle cone of cookie-dough ice cream last night? So, at any time I could just as easily decide to steal everything and kill everyone on a whim based on how I feel today, right? People better watch what they say or I might just make a simple ice-cream flavor decision to put a round in their head? If it's sucha baseless decision to make.....it must be some freakin' miracle that I haven't killed anyone yet.......that once in a while I don't just look around to see who's watching and then steal something. Decades of SOMEHOW making the right decision to not steal or murder anyone at all times.
In fact, if atheism is true, and there is no God, then questions of right from wrong would be nonsenical.
I would never claim atheism to be true or that there is no god, God, or gods.....but people in a civil society can have a learned basis of property ownership and life-value without believing in a god or reading it in a book and living by it. One can also believe in a god and be a complete dilhole to his neighbor.
If one doesn’t know what the color “blue” is, how can one identify it when he sees it?
Ummm....I don't know......you LEARN what "blue" is by someone pointing to blue and telling you it's "blue".....just as you learn what "right" is...what "wrong" is....for the society and time you're living in. AND you learn the consequences of doing right/wrong.....and the ones for doing wrong suck.
I presume you're only speaking of "theism" as a belief in YOUR God anyway. What if I'm a theist, but believe in a different god....or gods....and read a different book? The Qu'ran has a big foundation of guiding moralistic principles too...complete with a belief in a god and divine punishments and rewards for misbehaving.
ElectricStrawberry wrote: As I got older, I was able to think about it more as a “would I want to be treated that way” sort of “do unto others” philosophy. You could say that my morals are pseudo-Christian morals passed on by a Christian society through my non-Christian family. You could also say that I behave more in accordance with Christian morals than a helluva lot of God-believing Christians out there.
Nevadan: It’s very nice that you have been taught and have developed a personal, moral philosophy upon which you live your life. And, I’ve no doubt that you are a very nice person and probably a much better person than many. The problem for the atheist is that their moral standards have no transcendent foundation. In other words, what may be moral for you may not be moral for anyone else or what may be “immoral” for you is “moral” for someone else. Who is to say that your moral views are correct? Your parents raised you to teach you their view of what right and wrong are. How do you know what they believe is true?
Or, do you believe that there is such a thing as a moral absolute? How can there be if morality is taught merely by culture or society, since cultures and societies don’t always agree? Unfortunately, this is all one is left with in atheism. An atheist can be very “moral” and do “good” things, but another atheist can do just the opposite without violating any philosophical principles of atheism. Upon what transcendent moral basis would you object to the “immoral” atheist’s behavior? Because their behavior goes against “your standard” or society’s standard?
Without a transcendent moral Law and Law Giver, isn’t morality reduced to personal preferences of your parents and society? And, if that is true, then truth really does not exist and morality is whatever one wants to say that it is for them.
I’m not saying that that is what you as an atheist do or will do, or, even that most atheists would act that way. I’m just saying that that atheism implies that since there is no “god” or “gods”, or whatever, then morality and religion is whatever you want it to be. There would be no transcendent standard by which to compare or measure what is right or wrong, what is true or what is false. You can make up your own and follow it, but there is no compelling reason why anyone else would need to.
ElectricStrawberry wrote: I would never claim atheism to be true or that there is no god, God, or gods.....but people in a civil society can have a learned basis of property ownership and life-value without believing in a god or reading it in a book and living by it. One can also believe in a god and be a complete dilhole to his neighbor.
Nevadan: Again, you are quite correct about people creating their own “learned basis of property ownership and life-value without believing in a god” - but that doesn’t mean that their views are true. Another society of people may come up with completely different views of “life-value” that includes disregarding everyone else’s property ownership and worth - which is the true “life-value” and which is false?
Unfortunately, you are absolutely correct that there are people who claim to believe in God and yet treat each other in terrible ways - but, does that necessarily mean that God doesn’t really exist? Counterfeit money exists but does that mean that real money doesn’t exist either?
ElectricStrawberry wrote: Just....wow....how superior you must be.
Nevadan: Far from it. If I come across that way, I apologize.
Religion can and do set different moral standards, so do different branches of the same basic religion. Which one is right? Correct? True? Some Christians believe capital punishment is wrong...some do not...both use Biblical justifications. Which is right? Some Christians think war is wrong...some think not. Which is right?
Is it right to beat your wife with a stick if you "think" she has committed adultery? That is a specific "theist" view....specifically written in a theist Book.
Is it right to purposely kill a cow? Go kill cows in Mumbai and find out.
....there are people who claim to believe in God and yet treat each other in terrible ways - but, does that necessarily mean that God doesn’t really exist?
Not an argument I would ever make, as I do not agrue whether or not there is a god....ever.......but it goes right back to my original statement:
A belief in God is not necessary to have purpose in life, a system of ethics, love, or logical thought.....and a belief IN God does not necessarily lead to a "just, caring, and secure society".
....because the writer of this tripe thinks you MUST believe in God in order to have these things.....and that if you don't believe in God you cannot have these things. Really, there is no basis for logical thought unless I believe in God? Is THAT so? I couldn't learn logical thought in, say, a Logic 101 class at a 3rd rate community college?
Great...now I'm having Philosophy flashbacks.....
I get rather weary of this line of unadulterated hogwash myself. The "transcendent foundation" of radical Islam declares me an infidel worthy only of death. But, I counter, that's the wrong "transcendent foundation." Indeed, the "transcendent foundation" that I have chosen from the buffet of "transcendent foundations" says that radical Islamicists are going to hell. So there.
Religion is a singularly capricious source of moral law. When High-Priest Bob declares that his "transcendent" source has informed him that it is immoral to wear sweaters on tuesday (or, perhaps, that the moral thing to do is to drink the poison kool-aid or kill the infidel), his followers can either accept the edict or cross-check it against their own (oops) man-made moral sensibilities. What they can't do is ask High-Priest Bob's "transcendent" source for confirmation or clarification.
Cutting through the sanctimony, all "moral codes" are man made. They are cultural products that have, through time and the tests of practical application, developed the force of collective consensus.
--and the point is that 'right and wrong' must be man made because we hear about it from men. If that were true, then we'd have to say the sun was man made, because all recorded solar observations also come from men.
And of course, because the origin of right and wrong is supernatural, we in the west have wisely entrusted to pastors, priests, rabbis, and imams the job of passing binding judgments. Oh, wait . . .
Maybe so, but I haven't gotten to that part yet. Let's go back to the question of whether right and wrong are man made or not.
If we believe the sun exists outside ourselves because different people are able to independently report similar observations, then we have to also believe that right and wrong exists outside of people too.
Because the “right and wrong particle” hasn’t been isolated yet, it seems to me that you’re left with man-made or supernatural. And the sun isn’t an abstraction.
That's been the prevalent model for millennia, that everything not man made is divinely created. Maybe so, but another possibility is that some things are simply naturally occurring --but we digress.
The question is not whether the sun is naturally occurring or part of a divine creation. The question is whether the sun exists outside human activity. Let's say it does because we know different people have made similar independent observations. Let's be consistent and also agree that right and wrong exist outside human activity.
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