Pope: St. Paul's Remains Found in Basilica

NewsMax ^ | June 28, 2009 | NewsMax

[conservativegramma]

Pope Benedict announced on Sunday that fragments of bone from the first or second century had been found in a tomb in the Basilica of St Paul in Rome, which he said confirmed the belief that it housed the apostle's remains.

"This seems to confirm the unanimous and undisputed tradition that these are the mortal remains on the Apostle Paul," the pontiff said at St Paul's-Outside-the-Walls, on the eve of the Feasts of St Peter and St Paul celebrated on Monday.

[RoadTest]

“Study up on what the Catholic Church TEACHES, not what your Protestant propaganda spouts, and you will see that Church teaching is exactly that. That is precisely what the terms “latria” and “dulia” are all about. Go read the link I posted. No Catholic worships any image, period. “

Study to show thyself approved unto God; a workman rightly dividing The Word. The “Church” won’t be there when you stand before The Judge. Priests can’t show you the way of salvation - most of them aren’t even saved themselves.

[nina0113]

Seeing nothing in scripture that would instruct me or anyone else to venerate or worship an object...

Acts 19:11 - 12

[11] And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: [12] So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Not an exhortation to venerate or worship relics, but definite Biblical evidence of the value of such.

[Wonder Warthog]

” Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them” - Exodus 20:4 "That’s pretty emphatic.

Yes, it is. And you get the intepretation you do because Protestants have misquoted the Commandment. Obviously, given all the examples I gave, God has no problem with images, so it must be the worship thereof that is the problem. The correct Commandment is separated as the Catholic Bible gives it, with those two clauses in a single statement. Luther and Calvin were nuts.

[Wonder Warthog]

"Study to show thyself approved unto God; a workman rightly dividing The Word. The “Church” won’t be there when you stand before The Judge. Priests can’t show you the way of salvation - most of them aren’t even saved themselves."

The Church will be all around me, just as it is today. Take your Protestant BS and throw it at someone else who is more gullible. I started out Protestant, read the Bible and the Church Fathers, and "jumped ship" across the Tiber.

[stripes1776]

OK, those definitions make sense - but - most of the relics I’ve seen have seemingly become iconic through lavish religious and artistic embellishment(i.e., crusted with gold and gems, adorned caskets, etc.).

I think this does boil down to definitions. And it seems that different people have different definitions. That was what I was trying to determine. I would say that in the Catholic/Orthodox churches a relic is not a icon, even if the relic has embellishments. An icon is an image of a human form made by painting or sculpting. But I think this is a difference that is not distinguished in Protestant definitions.

Now, when you want to draw a line between veneration and worship, again, I think it’s a hard one to draw. Picking up my Funk & Wagnalls practical dictionary from 1928, its main definition concludes that ‘veneration’ is the act of venerating; reverence. Secondly, it informs me that it is the act of worshiping; worship.

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language says that venerate is to regard with respect, reverence, or deference. It says nothing about worship. For the word worship it lists several meanings, the first of which is to honor and love as a deity. So that would not describe the veneration of a relic. No one worships St Paul as a deity. The second meaning is to regard with ardent or adoring esteem. It seems to me that the second definition would have the same meaning as veneration. So it does come down to which definition you use.

Seeing nothing in scripture that would instruct me or anyone else to venerate or worship an object (and seeing multiple warnings against this practice), I would conclude that it’s probably best to let sleeping bones lie right where they are. From dust to dust . . .

That is indeed a matter of interpretation. I don't think veneration of relics is a requirement.

[stripes1776]

I do. Paul was a Christian.

From that statement, there could be several conclusions, including the following:

1. Paul was a Christian. Therefore, he would approve of the veneration of relics.

2. Paul was a Christian. Therefore, he would not approve of the veneration of relics.

The conclusion will depend on the beginning assumptions.

[WorkingClassFilth]

And I say “so what”. The teaching of the Church is pellucidly clear.

Correction: For those versed in doctrine, perhaps, but for too many in too many places, relics carry the same mindless allure as the paganism they have left behind.

If some people don't understand it, or ignore it, whose fault is that.

Correction: Uh, it's the fault of those who purport to know better for not doing a better job of teaaching and directing proper worship to Christ. As Paul said: "Let me show you a more perfect way . . ."

If folks in your church don't follow church doctrines, do you blame the doctrines?? I think not.

Correction: Too many times, in too many churches, it is the fault of leadership through deliberate misleading or not clarifying truth. In any case, leadership in the church - any church - is always going to be held to higher standards in matters of corporate Church behavior precisely because of the critical role authority holds to lead and guide.

Study up on what the Catholic Church TEACHES, not what your Protestant propaganda spouts, and you will see that Church teaching is exactly that.

Correction: First, as far as I'm concerned, this has nothing to do with Catholicism either in general or specifically. In fact, this could've been a thread on Mormonism or Hinduism - my main concern is the outworking of human nature and the pitfalls this kind of thing invites. It has everything to do with how things are perceived by those in darkness. Secondly, I'm not a Protestant. You ought to calm down and analyze things from a more objective perspective instead of an emphatically emotional one that seeks to lay blame on your imagined enemies. Finally, once again, the entire point of my original comment was that people DO worship relics and to not correct that or point it out is just plain derelict. We obviously disagree about something, but I think you'd profit by looking at how people regard - and, yes, worship - relics in quarters beyond your experience.

[WorkingClassFilth]

And I say “so what”. The teaching of the Church is pellucidly clear.

Correction: For those versed in doctrine, perhaps, but for too many in too many places, relics carry the same mindless allure as the paganism they have left behind.

If some people don't understand it, or ignore it, whose fault is that.

Correction: Uh, it's the fault of those who purport to know better for not doing a better job of teaaching and directing proper worship to Christ. As Paul said: "Let me show you a more perfect way . . ."

If folks in your church don't follow church doctrines, do you blame the doctrines?? I think not.

Correction: Too many times, in too many churches, it is the fault of leadership through deliberate misleading or not clarifying truth. In any case, leadership in the church - any church - is always going to be held to higher standards in matters of corporate Church behavior precisely because of the critical role authority holds to lead and guide.

Study up on what the Catholic Church TEACHES, not what your Protestant propaganda spouts, and you will see that Church teaching is exactly that.

Correction: First, as far as I'm concerned, this has nothing to do with Catholicism either in general or specifically. In fact, this could've been a thread on Mormonism or Hinduism - my main concern is the outworking of human nature and the pitfalls this kind of thing invites. It has everything to do with how things are perceived by those in darkness. Secondly, I'm not a Protestant. You ought to calm down and analyze things from a more objective perspective instead of an emphatically emotional one that seeks to lay blame on your imagined enemies. Finally, once again, the entire point of my original comment was that people DO worship relics and to not correct that or point it out is just plain derelict. We obviously disagree about something, but I think you'd profit by looking at how people regard - and, yes, worship - relics in quarters beyond your experience.

[RoadTest]

” The correct Commandment is separated as the Catholic Bible gives it, with those two clauses in a single statement.”

The Catholic system uses Jerome’s translation, which was made from two currupt manuscripts that don’t even agree with each other: The Sinaiticus and the Vaticanus. Jerome pointed that out to the Pope at the time and he said, “Use ‘em anyway.”.

[RoadTest]

“Study up on what the Catholic Church TEACHES”

You mean “Study the words of man rather than The Word of God.”.

[RoadTest]

The flesh profiteth nothing; it is the Spirit that giveth life”.

If the flesh is not profitable unto salvation, are crumbling bones?

[stripes1776]

If the flesh is not profitable unto salvation, are crumbling bones?

Probably no more than crumbling sheets of paper.

[Wonder Warthog]

"The Catholic system uses Jerome’s translation, which was made from two currupt manuscripts that don’t even agree with each other: The Sinaiticus and the Vaticanus. Jerome pointed that out to the Pope at the time and he said, “Use ‘em anyway.”"

The only problem is that the Protestant version is worse. See the changes made (without authority) by Luther. And, as I pointed out, the Protestant wording is just plain nuts, when compared to the evidence from the rest of the Bible. God had (and has) no problem at all with images---just the worship of same.

[Wonder Warthog]

"You mean “Study the words of man rather than The Word of God.”."

What the Catholic Church teaches "is" the Word of God. ALL of the Word of God--not just that found in the Bible, which document was collected, organized and promulgated by that same Catholic Church. That's the problem with you "sola scriptura" types, you come up with fifty thousand different interpretations of the same Bible, none of which agree with one another. At least the Catholic Church is consistent.

Now bug off, and bother somebody else.

[Wonder Warthog]

"Finally, once again, the entire point of my original comment was that people DO worship relics and to not correct that or point it out is just plain derelict."

And I say again. No properly catechized Catholic worships relics, and no priest, observing such behavior, would fail to correct it. And those who claim differently simply CANNOT know whether the observed behavior relates to veneration (dulia) or adoration/worship (latria), because as far as I know, there are no mind-readers in the human race. So, unless you're a telepath, you have zero proof that any such activity is worship, or not.

Gestures of deep respect vary greatly from one culture to another (see Japan vs. the United States).

[RoadTest]

You’re completely brainwashed with lies.

[RoadTest]

Take a look at the book, “IN AWE OF THY WORD” by Gail Riplinger.

[RoadTest]

Be careful. “thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name” - Psalm 138:2

Whether you honor God’s Word or not doesn’t change anything except you.

His name is Wonderful and glorious, yet He places His Word in an even Higher order.

Be very careful what you say about it.