Watch lists, guns and government

Atlanta Journal-Constitution ^ | June 29, 2009 | Bob Barr

[neverdem]

The secret government “Terrorist Watch List,” reportedly already swelled to more than 1.1 million names, will have an addendum, if gun control advocates in Congress have their way. This new addendum — also to be cloaked in secrecy — would empower the U.S. Attorney General to deny a person the ability to exercise their Second Amendment rights to purchase a firearm.

While it is not surprising that some members of Congress are again using fear of terrorism to implement a gun-control agenda, the openly unconstitutional legislative language proponents are employing is troubling.

Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.) is leading the effort in the Senate, while another well-known gun control advocate — Rep. Peter King (R-N.Y.) — is directing the House initiative. They have introduced identical bills — the “Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2009.” This proposal would give the attorney general the power to unilaterally and in secret develop a watch list of persons believed to be unworthy of possessing a firearm or any explosive.

This new “dangerous terrorist” watch list would include names based not on hard evidence of criminal activity, but on nothing more than the subjective conclusion by the attorney general that a person is “appropriately suspected” (whatever that means) of engaging in some manner of assisting or preparing for acts of domestic or international terrorism. The American people would never be privy to what criteria might be employed by the attorney general to determine whether someone is an “appropriate suspect,” and they would have no way of knowing why they might be denied the ability to purchase a firearm.

If a person were to be refused “permission” to purchase a firearm or explosive, and if they subsequently filed a lawsuit in federal court to find out why, the government still could keep such information secret. In other words, the attorney general could deny a U.S. citizen the ability to own a firearm, and never have to give the reason.

For legislators like Lautenberg and King, who apparently have absolute faith in unelected government officials to make the right decisions for the right reasons at the right times (and never be required to explain those decisions), one has only to consider the checkered history of post-9/11 “terrorist” watch lists to see the folly of such perspective. Stories abound of persons denied the ability to board a commercial aircraft, or greatly delayed in being allowed on board, for no reason other than their name erroneously appeared on some “watch list.” Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-Mass.), and Rep. John Lewis (D-Ga.), have been among this not-so-elite group.

A report earlier this year by the FBI’s inspector general chronicled extensive internal problems with the terrorist watch list maintained by that agency. The IG found numerous examples of inaccuracies, incomplete entries, out-of-date information and inclusion of information “unrelated to terrorism.” While the inconvenience of not being able to board an airliner for a business trip or a vacation can be a real headache, being refused the ability to purchase a firearm to protect one’s life clearly raises the stakes.

The government already has remedies already at its disposal to keep firearms out of the hands of known or suspected terrorists. Under existing federal law, there are numerous categories of persons prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms; including persons in violation of immigration laws, convicted felons, illicit drug users and others. And if a person truly is a known or suspected terrorist, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives — as the federal law enforcement agency primarily responsible for enforcing the nation’s gun laws — certainly should be made aware of that information. We don’t need a secret, anti-Second Amendment watch list to implement effective law enforcement in America

[neverdem]

Lautenberg is no surprise, but King wants to become governor. He's an idiot!

[DCBryan1]

Looks like more and more “Henry Bowman’s” are going to be popping up.

[relictele]

The names of these laws are getting sillier.

‘Dangerous Terrorists’ - to quote Jack Nicholson, is there another kind?

[KoRn]

.

[Spok]

“some members of Congress are again using fear of terrorism to implement a gun-control agenda”

Not surprising. Look at what they’ve accomplished by flogging fear of global warming, which is a lot less real than terrorism. Liberals don’t believe in women’s rights, environmentalism, gay rights or any other device they can use to accumulate concentrated power in the government; they’re all just a means to an end.

[jongaltsr]

Am I on it yet?
I keep trying and maybe some day I will make the list.
Every good citizen should be on this list. We want to assure that the government "fears" (respects) it's citizens.

[WayneS]

For legislators like Lautenberg and King, who apparently have absolute faith in unelected government officials to make the right decisions for the right reasons at the right times (and never be required to explain those decisions)...

These men do NOT have "absolute faith in unelected officials to make the right decisions...". They WANT unlected officials, chosen by them and their cronies to HAVE unlimited power to do THEIR bidding. It has NOTHING to do with "right decisions for the right reasons at the right times" and EVERYTHING to do with bringing about a totalitarian form of government in this country (run by people who think like they do).

Lautenberg has been hard at work on it for DECADES.

[ScottinVA]

“If a person were to be refused “permission” to purchase a firearm or explosive...”

That’s how the Left sees it... the 2nd Amendment is only so enforceable as far as they give “permission.”

[ScottinVA]

So, couple Janet Nappy’s list of “domestic extremists,” and you’ve got your ready-made enemies list. In addition to this, watch for a “Gun-Control Czar” position coming to an administration near you.

[WayneS]

The only problem is, once you are on it, it is a federal crime for a gun dealer to sell you a gun.

[WayneS]

You mean a “Firearms Safety Czar”, right?

;^)

[bamahead]

Libertarian ping! Click here to get added or here to be removed or post a message here!
(View past Libertarian pings here)

[east1234]

I wonder if they will be able to sieze the firearms you already own?

[EdReform]

Bang!

[ctdonath2]

...and they’ll use existing lists to relieve you of anything you have - NFA owners in particular.

[neverdem]

BANG!

[Just another Joe]

They WANT unlected officials, chosen by them and their cronies to HAVE unlimited power to do THEIR bidding.

The mafia dons used a similar method to avoid prosecution for conspiracy to commit murder.

Our govenrment: Soon to be the mafia writ large.

[Astronaut]

I agree. I sincerely hope I am on the Kenyan Muslim Marxist’s watch list. Every patriot should consider it a badge of honor to be on Hussein’s enemies list.

[mojitojoe]

would empower the U.S. Attorney General to deny a person the ability to exercise their Second Amendment rights to purchase a firearm.
___________
Good, that will trigger the end of this tyranny. Let's just get it over with. People know once the touch the 2nd amendment they have nothing left to lose except their freedom.

[SuperLuminal]

Welcome to FR....home of the baseline universe that will be used for the new secret, gun-grabbing watch-list.

[El Gato]

preparing for acts of domestic or international terrorism

By "stockpiling guns and/or ammunition?

What a nice Catch-22.

Boy are we all in trouuble. But we aren't alone, since trouble cuts both ways.

[GYL2]

Our government: Soon to be the mafia writ large.

The Mafioso would probably be offended being compared to our current Government.

[snowrip]

Let’s call this what it is: an attempt by the Neo-Nazi Party to implement their version of Neo-McCarthyism.

It’s laughable... the dems are so often shrieking about the percieved injustices of McCarthyism, but are willfully ignorant of the fact that McCarthy was never, ever wrong. This bill has so many intentionally gray areas, and so many chances for the utterly unfettered abuse of power, it makes my head spin.

[ought-six]

“People know once the touch the 2nd amendment they have nothing left to lose except their freedom.”

If we lose the 2A we lose what little freedom we still have left.

The 2A is the real game changer. The attempt to abolish the 2A will be what sets off the next revolution/civil war.

[Doomonyou]

Looks like more and more “Henry Bowman’s” are going to be popping up.

None too soon, either.

[lentulusgracchus]

What's a "Henry Bowman"?

[meyer]

What's a "Henry Bowman"?

Read the book, "Unintended Consequences" - you'll know who Henry Bowman is, and a bit more.

[Still Thinking]

Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-Mass.), and Rep. John Lewis (D-Ga.), have been among this not-so-elite group.

I guess the list does work.

[neverdem]

Breakthrough on the Authorship of Obama's 'Dreams'

Acorn Role in Census Challenged Susan Collins is absurd.

Justices Rule for White Firefighters in Bias Case SCOTUS opinions for the decision - comment# 1

Betraying the Planet Paul Krugman went nuts!

Some noteworthy articles about politics, foreign or military affairs, IMHO, FReepmail me if you want on or off my list.

[Joe Brower]

[KYGrandma]

I was just wondering how you could find out if you were on their list. Everytime I fly, I get pulled out and searched. I am your typical white haired grandmother, but I sure get searched. Bet I’m on a list somewhere.

[HotLead61]

Shock Value, to garner public support.

[Noumenon]

“Accuse others of what you do...”
—Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

[Noumenon]

Well, THIS ought to get me on 'the list'... A Fourth of July Tea Party Speech

Every one of you must resolve to go down swinging, if you must go down. Make it expensive.

[Blood of Tyrants]

“If a person were to be refused “permission” to purchase a firearm or explosive, and if they subsequently filed a lawsuit in federal court to find out why, the government still could keep such information secret. In other words, the attorney general could deny a U.S. citizen the ability to own a firearm, and never have to give the reason.”

This is not correct. It has long been held that the government may not use “secret evidence” to deny a person’s rights or to convict that person of a crime. Of course, that will do you absolutely no good when you are trying to buy a firearm.

[AngryJawa]

Looks like more and more “Henry Bowman’s” are going to be popping up.

I really can't see any way around doing it Henry's way anymore. I really can't.

God help us all.

[Gritty]

"One man with a gun can control 100 without one. Make mass searches and hold executions for found arms." - Vladimir Lenin

[The Duke]

It's comforting to know that Honduras is providing a nice environment for those dinosaurs who still covet freedom. For a while there I thought it was hopeless.

Hmmmm....Argentina is showing some "green shoots" of freedom as well.

[~Kim4VRWC's~]

Thank you for the pings, am forwarding this to everyone I can!

[DCBryan1]

Make your list of local critters.

[Blue Jays]

My viewpoint is that decent, law-abiding, and conservative patriots should not feverishly wish for inclusion on this inaccurate list.
It would utilize enormous sums of energy and time in a courtroom once "mistakenly" put there.
It could literally take YEARS to extricate from that mess, not to mention the inability to regularly purchase firearms (or travel) like usual.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping!

[Doomonyou]

Read it, Know it, Live it.

[wastedyears]

When something like that happens, do they have anything to lose?

[wastedyears]

Don’t be naive; this government will do absolutely everything they can to smash those who oppose them.

[American in Israel]

Liberals don’t believe in women’s rights... they’re all just a means to an end.

I would say the Sarah Palin thing proved that. I think we better stop pretending that they are anything but evil and get ready to fight for our lives. When they run out of welfare money, they are going to need something to eat. I have determined it will not be my family.

[Blood of Tyrants]

As far as I know, the government has NEVER been allowed to use secret evidence to convict a person of a crime or deny them their rights. I don’t even think the libtards are stupid enough to cross that line. However, I am not naive enough to believe the Rats won’t try to pass this legislation, even though I am fairly certain that the SC will overturn it.

[jongaltsr]

I was just wondering how you could find out if you were on their list. Everytime I fly, I get pulled out and searched. I am your typical white haired grandmother, but I sure get searched. Bet I’m on a list somewhere

No. You are a statistic (Typical white haired grandmother) and that is the reason they pick you out. They want to prove that they do not discriminate (Statistically) so they pick you so that you are added to the statistics to prove that they are not discriminating.

[jongaltsr]

My viewpoint is that decent, law-abiding, and conservative patriots should not feverishly wish for inclusion on this inaccurate list.

The point is that if you never draw a line in the sand, the government will accept that they can make any laws, do anything they want (without consequence).

Maybe you feel that you have to much to lose if the government comes down on you. If so then they will simply because you fear the consequence and are not willing to stand up to them.
I understand that fear.
As for myself, I have nothing to fear because I have more to gain or maintain (my freedom and rights) than I can lose. I realize that fact that I have lost more rights in the past few years then I have remaining - therefor I draw the line in the sand.
The government can spend their time and money coming after me, prosecuting me and jailing me for I am willing to live my remaining years costing the government more than they would have got out of me if I was productive - 100 fold.

[Blue Jays]

Yes, I totally see your point.
I'm just wondering if conservative patriots would be more effective in their efforts while off the list rather than fighting the system while on the list?
One can definitely visualize how Big Government^TM would have their hands full if they bite off more than they can chew and try to toss ALL of us on their absurd lists.