Posted on 06/30/2009 4:59:54 AM PDT by Kaslin
Sad, isn’t it? I guess great talent is hard for anyone to handle.
Makes me thankful that I have none. ;)
I think it's impossible to assess the impact music videos had on the reception those songs had from the public.
Sure, the J5 were on once a week or so on Soul Train or AB or the daytime variety shows, but anyone would admit that that is nothing compared to the exposure from 24/7 MTV.
I agree. But comparing the songs from J5 to Thriller or Off the Wall is like comparing Clapton’s work in the Yardbirds with Cream.
This is an interesting discussion, thank you LS.
The 80s are precisely when the record producer became every bit as important as the artist in terms of the sound recording. I'm not talking about a Peter Asher-type relationship with James Taylor or Smokey Robinson producing The Four Tops. Quincy's production of Michael Jackson was the template for all recorded dance music to follow in the 80s, 90s and beyond.
In the 80s it became next to impossible for any sound recording to chart without an accompanying video, and that's where MJ's true artistry registered. "Great songs" were almost exclusively the domain of country and adult contemporary radio stations. Duran Duran didn't write great songs...they made great records. Prince wrote some great stuff, but his grooves and melodies were the truly innovative component of his music, especially early on. Hall And Oates wrote very radio-friendly stuff and their records sounded good, but they fell apart on video...they were a little too old for the genre...their energy looked contrived. Radio was their salvation.
If you look exclusively at the music, Michael's stuff in the 80s was ordinary in the extreme. It doesn't matter how many lists he makes...as an adult his vocal range was narrow, limiting his melodic choices. While he tried to tell stories, his lyrics were mundane, a step above the tripe we were getting from the pretentious new artists at the time like Flock Of Seagulls and Kajagoogoo- what Frank Zappa called "pitched mouth noises."
Every R&B producer of that era wanted to be Quincy...even guys like Arif Mardin. Quincy and MJ's relationship was one of mutual respect, but other producers scoured the countysides of the world looking for artists with whom they could leave an imprint on the universe. This led to the boy bands of the late 80s and all of the 90s, who dominated the charts for a decade...many of whom had no real talent other than to pose for publicity shots.
In R&B and Hip-Hop today, the producer is everything except the pretty face. These guys control everything you hear on pop radio. This is primarily due to the Michael-Quincy relationship and the precedent it set for all that was to follow.
It's the songs and the singers, not the arrangers, who are the draw.
I'm not talking about "draw"; I'm talking about long-term impact and recognition of quality. I'm not talking about "arrangers" either. Arrangers are guys like Tom Scott who did the horn charts on Steely Dan's Aja.
I'm talking about the guy who has ultimate control, the person with the final say-so, who works the recording console like a musical instrument to create final mixes that can't be reproduced live. These people are currently the only creative people working in the urban side of the music business, and it all started with Michael Jackson and Quincy Jones.
The Jackson 5's records are much more real and reflect much more vocal artistry from MJ. These recordings portray actual musical performances...not edited, scoped, layered and textured productions designed to obscure flaws and maximize perfection. Future generations will prefer this music, just as they prefer Sinatra's early stuff to "Strangers In The Night" and John Lennon's music with The Beatles to his Double Fantasy album.
The perception of Michael's real musical talent will be centered in his Jackson 5 performances. I wish I could meet you, wager $20,000 and shake your hand.
Dick Clark said it: "it's in the grooves," and by that, he didn't mean the dials.
Q produced “Off the Wall”, “Thriller” and “We Are The World”. That’s a pretty good legacy for any producer, if that was all he ever did.
Always hated “Thriller”....I have 1 album by the Jackson’s called Destiny..from the days of disco....It was OK....I still like it....
OK, you’ve gone into non-responsive mode where you don’t actually “say things.” Have a good day.
I agree. But the debate is that Quincy “made” Jackson’s hits, not Jackson, which is silly. His subsequent albums weren’t as good, but still had top material, including “Man in the Mirror,” “Bad,” “Black and White,” while you’re hard-pressed to name anything Jones did afterwards that reached that quality.
From a personal perspective, we did our best work without a producer---or when he did minimal work. Vanilla Fudge was the same way: the more a producer got involved, the worse the music was. I'm not saying a great producer can't make great songs even better, but given a choice between a good song and an average producer and a bad song with a great producer, it isn't a choice.
No, the debate is whether Michael's Jackson 5 material will eventually be regarded as superior music (with stronger vocal performances) to his solo stuff.
His subsequent albums weren’t as good, but still had top material, including “Man in the Mirror,” “Bad,” “Black and White,” while you’re hard-pressed to name anything Jones did afterwards that reached that quality.
Okay, look: You don't know what you're talking about and I've wasted a lot of time.
Quincy Jones produced Bad.
By the way! What does Tommy Bolin have to do with the James Gang?
Now who doesn’t know what they are talking about? Tommy Bolin replaced Joe Walsh in James Gang, before then going off to form the Tommy Bolin band.
Asking a question doesn't mean that the person asking doesn't know what he's talking about; it means that he wants to know what the other person is talking about.
Based on your replies and non-responsiveness to germane points in this thread, I expect the distinction to be lost on you.
But you're right, if you think it'll help your point: I (and probably 99.999% of the rest of the people on earth) had no idea Bolin had ever joined James Gang...his tenure with them was unremarkable and folks who know him know his work with Deep Purple and his solo stuff. That's certainly true of me.
Now, back to the topic at hand: You attempted to make the point that Michael Jackson's music on Bad was as good as his stuff from his previous two albums, asserting that it wasn't produced by Quincy Jones and using it as proof of Michael's ability to make good records without him.
The problem is: Bad was indeed produced by Quincy Jones, rendering your point incorrect and absurd.
Your turn.
BTW, those who are Tommy Bolin fans wouldn't think that detail insignificant.
Billie Jean #58
I Want You Back #120
Beat It #337
That's actually less from MJ than I thought---I was sure Thriller would be on there, possibly Don't Stop Till You Get Enough.
The thing about these lists is, almost certainly you aren't going to have earlier stuff jump back up, because the tendency is to add "great" new songs as they come up. It's possible that in the wake of Jackson's death, they might add one or two of his solo works, but I can't see ever going back and adding Jackson 5 stuff.
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