Airbus could be asked to ground all long-range airliners

Timesonline ^ | July 1, 2009 | Charles Bremner in Paris

[Paleo Conservative]

Airbus is expected to face calls to ground its worldwide fleet of long-range airliners tomorrow when French accident investigators issue their first account of what caused Air France Flight 447 to crash off Brazil on June 1.

It is believed that the accident bureau will report that stormy weather was a factor but faulty speed data and electronics were the main problem in the disaster that killed 228 people.

The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) is likely to be asked why it had never taken action to remedy trouble that was well known with the Airbus 330 and 340 series. Nearly 1,000 of the aircraft are flying and until AF447, no passenger had been killed in one.

...................................

Suspicion over the air data systems on the Airbus 330 and 340 series has increased after the disclosure that the aircraft had experienced 36 episodes similar to the one that brought Flight 447 down as it flew from Rio de Janeiro to Paris.

Airbus first reported problems with the speed sensors — known as pitot tubes — in 1994, it emerged this week. The company advised remedies, but no mandatory action was taken.

[Paleo Conservative]

I was required to excerpt. There is a video that can't be embedded, so you'll have to follow the link to watch the video and read the whole article

[Paleo Conservative]

If you want on or off this aerospace ping list, please contact Paleo Conservative or phantomworker by Freep mail.

[pissant]

Boeing BUMP

[Hulka]

A fine aircraft to have refueling our military jets all over the world, in all sorts of environments and under combat and austere conditions. Hefty re-work needs to be done if they wish to remain a viable candidate for the refueling aircraft.

[ModelBreaker]

This sucks. If true, flying is going to get a lot more expensive for a while. Good for Boeing, though.

[Don Corleone]

If you ‘Fly by Wire” expect to “Die by Wire”. I’m going on Boeing!

[americanophile]

[smokingfrog]

Not good for Airbus. Might be a good time to buy some Boeing stock.

[DoughtyOne]

O - U - C - H

[DoughtyOne]

LOL

Good thing it gets there faster (at least I hope it does), because the bathroom access is real iffy.

[UCANSEE2]

Wonder if they’ll mention that it looks like the vertical stabilizer and rudder separated from the plane very early in the incident.

[Anti-Kenyan]

If the vertical stab separated the rudder separating is kind of a moot point.

[nkycincinnatikid]

Ain’t gonna happen. But my aquaintances in Toulouse are crapping their pants.

[kingpins10]

I have never and will never fly on an Airbus.

[GreyFriar]

I heard that they are changing their name to Seabus, since they like to kiss the ocean.

[Seaplaner]

What an excellent point you make!

Hopefully the pentagon and the USAF are taking careful notice.

.

[headstamp 2]

“I heard that they are changing their name to Seabus, since they like to kiss the ocean.”

Succubus

[expatpat]

Boeing is also fly-by-wire on the new aircraft. However, IMO they have a more-reliable system.

[AlexW]

“I have never and will never fly on an Airbus.”

In August, I flew Qatar Airways Airbus from Vienna to Cebu
and return.
In Jan. it was one way Vienna to Cebu on same Airbus flight.

I can not imagine ever flying on the new Jumbo 370?

Fortunately, I have no plans for any flights in the foreseeable future.
It was just in the last several weeks that I saw a
National Geo. special on airline crash investigations.
Even though I am a pilot (pvt), the program was enough to scare me to never want to fly again.

[Secret Agent Man]

Good for Boeing selling everything except their composite bird, which is having troubles and delays of its own. Wish they’d get it going.

[3niner]

Extremely unlikely. The pitot tubes are not the same design in all aircraft even when they are the same model.

[jpsb]

Until the 878 flies I would not touch Boeing stock. Boeing bet the farm on the 787 and things are not going well.

[jpsb]

Until the 878 flies I would not touch Boeing stock. Boeing bet the farm on the 787 and things are not going well.

[Hiddigeigei]

Didn’t they find the vertical stabilizer about thirty miles from the main wreckage of Air France Flight 447?

[River_Wrangler]

Boeing is also fly-by-wire on the new aircraft. However, IMO they have a more-reliable system.

They also have a different philosophy about the pilot in command of the aircraft. The European thought process is that computers are more capable of overcoming accidental control errors than pilots. Americans believe in the pilot's skills.

On American fly by wire systems the pilot can overcome the autopilot inputs. The Airbus limits the pilot's manual input to preset limits.

At FL 35 the difference between stall speed and buffet is very narrow. Maybe as low as 20-25 knots. A slight error in a speed indicator would create a chance for the aircraft to enter an attitude that might not be recoverable by a pilot that had limited control ability by design.

Or as we say in layman's terms******OOPS!

[PAR35]

Boeing bet the farm on the 787 and things are not going well.

That 'made in China and other foreign locations' program isn't working out for them?

[NittanyLion]

“EASA has a legal and moral obligation to get to the bottom of this problem now. If there is a defective system and the aircraft is unsafe then it should be grounded,” said James Healy-Pratt of Stewarts Law in London. The firm, which specialises in aviation, is representing the families of 20 of the victims of flight 447.

So the calls are coming from a law firm? Not exactly impartial, are they?

[True Republican Patriot]

Couldn’t happen to a more deserving heap of scrap metal! To call an Airbuust a Bird is the most derogatory thing one can say about some of the best of GOD’S Creations!May GOD be with those Womderful Souls Lost off of Brazil;-l

[True Republican Patriot]

EXCELLENT!

[True Republican Patriot]

Shades of AMERICAN 582 over Long Island on Nov.11, 2001! Shoulda given AIRBUUST more than enough time to fix it’s flimsy tail feathers? Give Me Boeing! After millions of miles on BOEINGS, I am still Healthy, Wise and well Wealthy in many ways toooo!

[smokingfrog]

Mmmm. Unexpected wing stess failure.

Design Issues Starting To Plague 787

[True Republican Patriot]

OH POOH! Better dieing Flying than at the hands of a Drunk Illegal Alien on Our Highways!:-)

[True Republican Patriot]

Didn’t realize Boeing was building a 878 as well????:-)

[razorback-bert]

In pilots tech talk it is “Aw shit.”

[expatpat]

The European thought process is that computers are more capable of overcoming accidental control errors than pilots.

That reminds me of a joke I saw in Flight a few years back:
The airliner of the future will have a crew of 2 in the cockpit: a pilot and a dog. The pilot is there to feed the dog; the dog is there to bite the pilot if he tries to touch anything.

[Neidermeyer]

Didn’t they find the vertical stabilizer about thirty miles from the main wreckage of Air France Flight 447?
****************************************************
Yes ,, but it was floating and currents may be responsible for it being 30 miles distant... I for one find the fly-by-wire system freaking out over bad input to be the most likely causation of the accident...

[CholeraJoe]

Remind me again the last time a Boeing aircraft crashed without being hijacked or shot out of the sky?

[Hulka]

Not the affected part.

[Hiddigeigei]

Perhaps the loss of computer control caused the pilot to put unusual stress on the airplane, and the vertical stabilizer [known to be a weak feature of Airbus because of their excesses use of composites] tore off.

[DesScorp]

"If you ‘Fly by Wire” expect to “Die by Wire”. I’m going on Boeing!"

The problem is that Boeing does this garbage now too. The 777 and 787 are both computer controlled. Not just fly-by-wire, mind you, like the F-16 (where the plane has electric instead of hydraulic controls, but the pilot still has direct control of the plane). No, in Airbus jets and the 777/787, the computer has direct control. When the pilot moves the stick, he's not directly moving the surfaces himself. He's literally talking to a computer that interprets what he's doing, and then the computer moves the control surfaces. And if the computer doesn't like what he's doing, the computer doesn't do it. The whole problem with this philosophy is that it doesn't value the experience or skill of the pilot. On the contrary, these systems see the pilot as a liability to be managed and minimized.

[Neidermeyer]

The report from AirFrance now says the jet hit the water intact belly first and at high speed ... could be a pitot based computer malfunction.. if the puters thought the plane was stalled it would not have allowed the pilots to pull up.. it may have even commanded full toga power from the engines.

[Prophet in the wilderness]

Boeing has a different philosophy when it comes to it's flight computers and fly by wire...
Boeing still incorporates a yoke and not a joy stick and still let's the pilot have the last say ( computer override )..

[UCANSEE2]

Poor communication on my end.

The Vertical Stabilizer with rudder still attached, broke off at the seam where the composites are glued together.

One of the reasons for the rudder-limit function on the Airbus 310 is that excessive rudder movement at high-speed causes it to break off at the seam where the composites are glued together.

[Prophet in the wilderness]

Actually, the plane has had many redesigns since it's inception ( not launch ) and a year or 2 ago the wing box had to be redesign to stiffen up the wing box.
The latest problem has to do with the wing box to wing join ...
However, the problems with the subs has more to do with one of their subs in South Carolina Voight...
Boeing had a joint venture with Voight and Global Aeronautical in South Carolina to join most of the center fuselage...
This week there was news that Boeing will buy out Voight's part and build a new 2nd production line for the 787 in South Carolina...

[Prophet in the wilderness]

" So the calls are coming from a law firm? Not exactly impartial, are they? ' ....

Money does funny things to people,, they ( the Lawyers ) want their money...