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GAO: Electric Cars Won't Reduce Carbon Emissions
HotAir.com ^ | July 10, 2009

Posted on 07/10/2009 11:38:59 AM PDT by WhiteCastle

The push for conversion to plug-in electric cars will do nothing to stop carbon emissions, a report by the GAO warns, throwing cold water on a push by Democrats to get more plug-ins on the road. In fact, the problem could be made worse as demand goes up at coal-fired electrical plants. Plus, the need for batteries may just have the US changing the dictators to which we’re chained, as IBD reports...

(Excerpt) Read more at hotair.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: agw; algore; alternativeenergy; atlasshrugged; batteries; bhoenergy; bhogao; bolivia; carbondioxide; carbonemissions; carnondioxide; chevyvolt; co2; coal; drillbabydrill; electriccar; electriccars; elsewhereemission; emissions; energy; evomorales; france; gao; givemeliberty; globalcooling; globalwarming; gop2010; gorebullwarming; hugochavez; hybrid; hybridcar; hybrids; ibd; idiocracy; lithium; lithiumbatteries; madashell; mojavesolarnow; newnuclearnow; nuclear; nuclearpower; nukewastenoproblem; oil; opec; palin2012; plugin; reprocessing; saudiarabia; solar; subductionzones; takeamericaback; tanstaafl; tesla; volt; wakeupamerica; wind; yuccamountain

1 posted on 07/10/2009 11:38:59 AM PDT by WhiteCastle
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To: steelyourfaith

Ping!


2 posted on 07/10/2009 11:40:50 AM PDT by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: WhiteCastle

Thus the term “coal powered” for an electric car...

This is not news to any thinking person...


3 posted on 07/10/2009 11:41:07 AM PDT by ltc8k6
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To: WhiteCastle

What? Nonsense. Doesn’t electricity just magically come out of the wall?


4 posted on 07/10/2009 11:42:02 AM PDT by Zeddicus
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To: WhiteCastle

Drill Here Drill Now


5 posted on 07/10/2009 11:42:27 AM PDT by DLfromthedesert
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To: WhiteCastle

Can someone post Captain Obvious?

Geez FR has been saying this for years.


6 posted on 07/10/2009 11:44:16 AM PDT by Principled (Get the capital back! NRST!)
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To: WhiteCastle

I’ve said this before......why trade big oil for monopolistic electricity?


7 posted on 07/10/2009 11:44:22 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi (Too many conservatives urge retreat when the war of politics doesn't go their way.)
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To: WhiteCastle

Unless they take the chains off building clean nukes...


8 posted on 07/10/2009 11:44:29 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: WhiteCastle
WE DO NOT HAVE ELECTRIC CARS AVAILABLE FOR THE GENERAL PUBLIC. STOP SELLING SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T EXIST.

And we're not going to buy some over priced tin can when it does come about.

9 posted on 07/10/2009 11:47:35 AM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: WhiteCastle
The solution is more nuclear power. While the U.S. has been hamstrung by environmental radicals and their pawns in Congress, the rest of the world has surged ahead in this field. The Japanese sell a portable reactor the size of an 18-wheeler for small communities. It can be shipped to the site in one piece, operate with little maintenance for years, then removed and replaced. The old unit is shipped back to Japan for decontamination.

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Toshiba’s_Home_Nuclear_Fusion_Reactor

10 posted on 07/10/2009 11:49:21 AM PDT by Brad from Tennessee (A politician can't give you anything he hasn't first stolen from you.)
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To: Brad from Tennessee

Electric cars have been around for nearly 100 years and haven’t been practical.

Give it up.


11 posted on 07/10/2009 11:52:41 AM PDT by umgud (Look to gov't to solve your everday problems and they'll control your everday life.)
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To: WhiteCastle
The push for conversion to plug-in electric cars will do nothing to stop carbon emissions, a report by the GAO warns, throwing cold water on a push by Democrats to get more plug-ins on the road. In fact, the problem could be made worse as demand goes up at coal-fired electrical plants. Plus, the need for batteries may just have the US changing the dictators to which we’re chained, as IBD reports...

Oh what a bunch of Claptrap.

1) Even thought he EPA says it's not. Carbon Dioxide is a natural gas consumed by plants and photo plankton, which in turn gives us Oxygen. This cycle has been going on for thousands of years and no one has proven it is broken.

2) Electricity can be produced by Hydroelectric, Solar and Wind power easily. None of these requires a power plant, but those that do are very convenient.

3) Battery efficiency is increasing at a great rate and the newer technologies will make it possible to store more power than ever before.

4) Cap and Trade will probably Tax your car in the near future.

Given all of this, do you thing the Government (GAO) should tell the car companies Not to make Electric Cars??

12 posted on 07/10/2009 11:55:18 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: Brad from Tennessee
Cool, but why are they calling it a fusion reactor?
13 posted on 07/10/2009 11:55:38 AM PDT by Zeddicus
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To: Sacajaweau
WE DO NOT HAVE ELECTRIC CARS AVAILABLE FOR THE GENERAL PUBLIC. STOP SELLING SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T EXIST.

Tell that to Tesla Motors.

14 posted on 07/10/2009 11:57:32 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: Sacajaweau
Horse Buggy manufacturers probably thought that the Automobile would never work out in the general public either.

Just because it isn't quite ready for prime time, doesn't mean it won't be. And just because it is expensive now, don't think it will be in the furture. Think Computers and Memory.

15 posted on 07/10/2009 12:00:15 PM PDT by sr4402
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To: WhiteCastle; All
"GAO: Electric Cars Won't Reduce Carbon Emissions"


16 posted on 07/10/2009 12:00:51 PM PDT by musicman (Until I see a REAL C.O.L.B. BC, he's just "PRES__ENT" Obama = Without "ID")
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To: sr4402
I have to agree with you on that. But the C & T bill will tax just about everything you purchase.And the folks at the bottom of the pecking order better think about tents and Spam.
17 posted on 07/10/2009 12:04:09 PM PDT by ANGGAPO (Leyte Gulf Beach Club)
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To: xcamel

“Unless they take the chains off building clean nukes...”

Exactly. That’s the elephant in the room - even if you want to reduce CO2 there’s a practical and virtually unlimited, DOMESTIC energy source that’ll actually work and be cost effective.

The Democrats, blinded by ideology, are too stupid to see a win/win solution.


18 posted on 07/10/2009 12:07:41 PM PDT by PreciousLiberty
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To: WhiteCastle

Where do all of these liberal loons think the energy is coming from? Heaven? Wait....they don’t believe in that.


19 posted on 07/10/2009 12:07:54 PM PDT by Red in Blue PA (If guns cause crime, then all of mine are defective!)
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To: WhiteCastle
"We would most likely have to do business with Hugo Chavez lackey Evo Morales of Bolivia, where half of the world’s proven stores of lithium reside. Even if we didn’t buy directly from the leftist leader, Morales has the ability to set the global price — just as Saudi Arabia and OPEC do with oil."

That should put a damper on enthusiasm for Lithium batteries.

I agree whole heartedly with IBD's call for Nuclear power.

Don't rule out hydrogen as an alternative for Lithium batteries. Hydrogen wouldn't be dependent on any other country. And either Hydrogen or non-lithium batteries could provide us the energy independence we need to keep the next oil price shock from derailing our economy again.

20 posted on 07/10/2009 12:10:53 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: sr4402

I’m not one to discount the potential for technological advancement, but given the current state of battery technology, there is no way we are even anywhere close to being able to replace liquid-fueled cars with purely battery powered ones.

Not only is range ridiculous, but recharging is a serious issue. I simply do not see how they will ever be able to compress a recharge cycle into the amount of time it takes to pump 10 gallons of gas.

Maybe this would be somewhat workable for city commuting. But frankly, if I wanted to live in an urban setting where the limitations of a battery-powered car might be acceptable, I’d be more likely to not bother and use public transportation.


21 posted on 07/10/2009 12:14:15 PM PDT by Zeddicus
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To: WhiteCastle

As though the radical left really cares!


22 posted on 07/10/2009 12:14:52 PM PDT by Oldpuppymax (AGENDA OF THE LEFT EXPOSED)
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To: WhiteCastle

Where are we going to dispose of all of these monster worn out batteries?

What’s the environmental impact of this disposal?

Has there been comprehensive studies on the subject?


23 posted on 07/10/2009 12:15:47 PM PDT by Gator113 (I live in "one of the largest Muslim countries in the world." Imam Obama told me so.)
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To: Erik Latranyi
I’ve said this before......why trade big oil for monopolistic electricity?

It can't be monopolistic when you can generate your needs on your roof.

24 posted on 07/10/2009 12:18:17 PM PDT by ColdWater
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To: WhiteCastle

I would be proud to drive a car powered by domestic coal.

And remember, CO2 produced by American coal does not cause global warming.


25 posted on 07/10/2009 12:18:18 PM PDT by dangerdoc (dangerdoc (not actually dangerous any more))
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To: DannyTN
Don't rule out hydrogen as an alternative for Lithium batteries. Hydrogen wouldn't be dependent on any other country. And either Hydrogen or non-lithium batteries could provide us the energy independence we need to keep the next oil price shock from derailing our economy again.

That's more like it. With enough nuke power to make hydrogen production practical, this is a far better alternative to battery-powered cars. Still huge hurdles to overcome though to setup nation-wide distribution for liquid hrydogen though, not to mention retrofits for storage and transfer at fueling stations.

I still like it better than battery-powered cars though, which IMO is just silly.

26 posted on 07/10/2009 12:19:10 PM PDT by Zeddicus
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To: WhiteCastle
GAO: Electric Cars Won't Reduce Carbon Emissions

Gee, what a surprise.

27 posted on 07/10/2009 12:20:17 PM PDT by DustyMoment (FloriDUH - proud inventors of pregnant/hanging chads and judicide!!)
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To: Zeddicus

“Not only is range ridiculous, but recharging is a serious issue. I simply do not see how they will ever be able to compress a recharge cycle into the amount of time it takes to pump 10 gallons of gas.”

I think the best idea is the plug-in hybrid. You’d plug it in overnight, and then if your daily commute is 20-30 miles or less, you could do it all on batteries.

For longer trips, the gas (or better yet, diesel) engine kicks in.

On the fast-recharge front, the use of carbon nanotubes in capacitance style batteries may compress charge times to just a few minutes. A group at MIT is working with that technology.


28 posted on 07/10/2009 12:25:29 PM PDT by PreciousLiberty
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To: PreciousLiberty
I agree, gas-battery hybrids make far more sense than just battery.

On the fast-recharge front, the use of carbon nanotubes in capacitance style batteries may compress charge times to just a few minutes. A group at MIT is working with that technology.

Very cool, didn't know about that. Although I'm a bit terrified to think of the voltage/current required to fast-charge a capacitor capable of powering a car. O.O

29 posted on 07/10/2009 12:29:53 PM PDT by Zeddicus
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To: Zeddicus
but given the current state of battery technology. Let me complete that "being manufactured in current production". This is currently true now but may not in the near future.

Molecular Battery Technology has produced batteries which can hold double the charge (or more) in 1/5 the charging time. Another Breathing battery technology did a similar thing recently.

I'm believing that making these batteries survive rugged use and the heavy recharging involved is the current challenge.

Like most inventions. It may take a little stumbling on. Like Edison with Tungsten or Alexander Graham bell with Sulfuric acid. The components are there, but needs to be made practical.

Solar power is about to make similar leaps as well.

And Brushless generators have been made. If these can be produced at a personal level... It would be nice to get off the Grid, before Obama blasts Energy Prices through the Roof!

30 posted on 07/10/2009 12:30:55 PM PDT by sr4402
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To: ANGGAPO
And the folks at the bottom of the pecking order better think about tents and Spam.

Or to get off the Grid.

31 posted on 07/10/2009 12:32:35 PM PDT by sr4402
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To: DannyTN

FYI, they just figured out how to make a nearly four fold increase in hydrogen yield from a given amount of electricity.

Turns out that if you hydrocrack urine (i.e., process city sewage through a reactor) you get hydrogen frighteningly easily.


32 posted on 07/10/2009 12:35:26 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Zeddicus

They still have a bit of an explosion/meltdown problem.... and even if they didn’t, you would require at least a 480V drop to every house to recharge them.


33 posted on 07/10/2009 12:36:39 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Zeddicus

Well, batteries would be great if there are enough improvements in the batteries, so that we aren’t having to replace them so often or recharge every 100 miles.

But I think batteries are still in the not yet viable category. While Hydrogen is actually implementable.


34 posted on 07/10/2009 12:39:43 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: sr4402

Yeh....Start at $50,000....I’ll get two!!!


35 posted on 07/10/2009 12:47:37 PM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: DannyTN

Hydrogen powered flying pigs.


36 posted on 07/10/2009 12:56:12 PM PDT by norraad ("What light!">Blues Brothers)
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To: Zeddicus
Doesn’t electricity just magically come out of the wall?

Doesn’t electricity just magically come out of the wall? < /DUmmie mode>

I tried my best to explain that to a liberal. She was so dense, I finally gave up. Her neighborhood has underground utility wiring.

Her argument was: "There are NO electric poles and wires on my street."

37 posted on 07/10/2009 12:58:08 PM PDT by Arrowhead1952 (Jimmy Carter - now the second worst POTUS ever. BHO has #1 spot in his sights.)
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To: WhiteCastle
In fact, the problem could be made worse as demand goes up at coal-fired electrical plants.

Why else do you think they're pushing "cap & trade?" They want to make the cost of coal-fired electricity impossibly high just as demand spikes due to plug-in hybrids, so that they can funnel money to their cronies in wind and solar.

38 posted on 07/10/2009 12:58:42 PM PDT by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: sr4402
Computer prices went down because.....

Car prices??? NEVER!!!!

39 posted on 07/10/2009 12:59:22 PM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: sr4402
Electricity can be produced by Hydroelectric, Solar and Wind power easily. None of these requires a power plant, but those that do are very convenient.

Does the definition of convenient include affordable and reliable? I can make electricity by rigging a generator up to a stationary bike but has a couple drawbacks such as being unable to supply much power and, well I am too far out of shape to run my air conditioner and 52" LCD TV simultaneously...

I would like to hear at least one feasible idea for replacing 2,000 billion kWh of electricity with even a combination of hydro, solar, and wind. That's before a few million people start plugging in their cars.

Given all of this, do you thing the Government (GAO) should tell the car companies Not to make Electric Cars??

I think the government should keep their noses out of it alltogether and let the companies make the products that the companies want to invest in. The market will decide whether they chose well or not.

40 posted on 07/10/2009 12:59:59 PM PDT by !1776!
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To: Gator113
What’s the environmental impact of this disposal?

Think about the compact fluorescent light bulbs.

41 posted on 07/10/2009 1:01:35 PM PDT by Arrowhead1952 (Jimmy Carter - now the second worst POTUS ever. BHO has #1 spot in his sights.)
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To: Arrowhead1952
Her argument was: "There are NO electric poles and wires on my street."

Seriously? Just... wow. You should have taken her outside, shown her her electric meter, and asked her what she thinks that's all about.

42 posted on 07/10/2009 1:21:56 PM PDT by Zeddicus
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To: Army Air Corps; rdl6989; Little Bill; IrishCatholic; Normandy; According2RecentPollsAirIsGood; ...
Thanx !

 


Beam me to Planet Gore !

43 posted on 07/10/2009 1:28:16 PM PDT by steelyourfaith ("The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money" - Lady Thatcher)
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To: Zeddicus

Yes! Every good Dem knows that!


44 posted on 07/10/2009 1:29:52 PM PDT by stayathomemom (Beware of cat attacks while typing!)
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To: !1776!
I would like to hear at least one feasible idea for replacing 2,000 billion kWh of electricity with even a combination of hydro, solar, and wind. That's before a few million people start plugging in their cars.

That's like asking for the moon. A change overnight for everybody. Yeah right. Government solution; usual results.

Better to start at the individual level and make it work there first. Better free of corporate and govenment entanglements and boxed-in thinking. As the technology becomes more available someone will figure it out. That person begins selling the solution locally to people who get exited about it.

The invention takes off like most of these do. When it catches on. Then the economies of scale and cheapness drive out the more expensive technologies. Let's see: Capture power and store it in the home. Use power from the Grid (and pay Obama's Taxes) when low. Notice, I didn't say Electricity and I didn't say Natural Gas, I said power. Transfer that power to appliances when needed.

Start Simple. Wind power to Lithium Batteries. After returning the vehicle to the garage, a guide in the garage floor positions the car such that the force of the vehicle. pushes out the old battery and plugs in the new one. The old battery goes to the Wind Power with Grid power backup for recharging.

Add a charger and power cord for emergencies. Current car using these batteries: Tesla Motors - approximately 200 Miles per charge.

Gain: No charging time from the Home. Step 2: Increase the Power storage capacity.

45 posted on 07/10/2009 1:47:30 PM PDT by sr4402
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To: sr4402
That's like asking for the moon. A change overnight for everybody.

So is inferring that hydro, wind, and solar can provide power "easily." Fact is they can't.

Government solution; usual results.

I am in 100% agreement with you on that.

Better to start at the individual level and make it work there first.

I have no problem starting at the individual level, but without proper planning and infrastructure development, that individual level action has the potential to create chaos. A few thousand cars charing extra batteries in the off hours - blip on the energy radar. A few million - much different story.

Then the economies of scale and cheapness drive out the more expensive technologies.

Newer, better batteries are great - hope they keep coming and getting better. Doesn't really change the amount of power that is necessary to propel a car from point a to point b, just reduces inefficiencies.

I guess what I am trying to say is even if you make storage of this energy 10 x more effiecient but increase the demand for this energy by 1,000 x - you still have to make a lot more energy.

Capture power and store it in the home.

Where the power will come from is the issue.

Start Simple. Wind power to Lithium Batteries.

Start realistic - how do you get wind power to even 100,000 litium batteries that will power a car for 100 miles?

There is no such thing as a free lunch. Want to move a 1.5 ton vehicle 50 miles requires energy.

46 posted on 07/10/2009 2:55:51 PM PDT by !1776!
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To: Zeddicus

I don’t know where they get “fusion.” Here’s one closer to home:

http://earth2tech.com/2008/08/01/hyperions-nuclear-in-a-box-ready-by-2013/


47 posted on 07/10/2009 5:27:46 PM PDT by Brad from Tennessee (A politician can't give you anything he hasn't first stolen from you.)
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To: Zeddicus

What? Nonsense. Doesn’t electricity just magically come out of the wall?””

Sure it does!!!
Just like milk comes from Safeway....


48 posted on 07/10/2009 5:56:15 PM PDT by ridesthemiles
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To: Arrowhead1952

Doesn’t electricity just magically come out of the wall? < /DUmmie mode>

I tried my best to explain that to a liberal. She was so dense, I finally gave up. Her neighborhood has underground utility wiring.

Her argument was: “There are NO electric poles and wires on my street.””

I am too disgusted to even ask what level of education this woman has.
IF she has college courses under her belt, what a colossal waste of money and time. She is beyond dumb. Someone else surely deserved to be in her college seat instead.


49 posted on 07/10/2009 5:59:38 PM PDT by ridesthemiles
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To: ridesthemiles; Zeddicus
Her argument was: “There are NO electric poles and wires on my street.””

She is beyond dumb. Someone else surely deserved to be in her college seat instead.

I'm sure she had a degree in basket weaving or dope smoking. You know the saying "Never argue with a fool because onlookers may not realize who the fool is." I just gave up on her. I wonder what she thought when she got her utility bill each month. You know the one that says "This is your electric bill".

50 posted on 07/11/2009 4:17:07 AM PDT by Arrowhead1952 (Jimmy Carter - now the second worst POTUS ever. BHO has #1 spot in his sights.)
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