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Firearms rights: Jewish high schoolers debate with gun-rights champion
Salt Lake Tribune ^ | 10 July 2009 | Brandon Loomis

Posted on 07/10/2009 10:01:00 PM PDT by greatdefender

Several of the students had a knee-jerk reaction when gun-rights advocate Clark Aposhian blasted his first pistol round into a target Thursday. But it was physical, not ideological.

These students from around America were in Salt Lake City to learn and test their beliefs, not to dismiss opposing views.

Roughly 40 Jewish high schoolers traveling the country are hearing from experts on opposing sides of the nation's most politically charged issues. Aposhian was the National Rifle Association's face for the day after the group's stop in Colorado to hear from a gun-control advocate whose child died in the Columbine school shootings.

"You've met the NRA," tour leader Billy Planer told the students after Aposhian finished demonstrating two handguns and an automatic machine gun. "It's not so demonizing."

Guns are not a natural fit for some of the children, most of whom live in Eastern cities and, Planer said, liberal families. But after hearing Aposhian's hourlong defense of gun rights just before the demonstration, some said they appreciate his opinions even if they disagree.

Boston teenager Sarah Cohen acknowledged she's no Second Amendment scholar, but she couldn't understand Aposhian's support for public ownership of machine guns.

"There's a difference between having a gun for self-protection and having a gun for the military," she said.

Josh Braude, a Northbrook, Ill., student, was disturbed by that Utah permitsconcealed weapons.

"That's scary because people might have more of a tendency to fire the gun instead of calming down the argument," he said.

Some of the students agreed with Aposhian's defense of admittedly unnecessary or impractical guns -- essentially "why not?" -- and whooped at the noise on the firing range.

Aposhian, the most active lobbyist for gun-rights issues on Utah's Capitol Hill, addressed the students in a room at the Lee Kay Center for Hunter Education. Throughout his talk, a half dozen hands remained always in the air: Don't guns increase suicide? Aren't machine guns simply killing machines? Doesn't easy gun access increase violent crime?

The answer to all three of those particular questions is "no," in Aposhian's view. Japan has fewer guns but more suicides, he said. Machine guns are designed to make people take cover, and are less effective killers than rifles, he said. And he referred to studies indicating gun access reduces crime.

Many of the students questioned his assertions. Some agreed with him. When someone asked why he should have a machine gun, he asked why he shouldn't. He wants one, he said, and it's no different from someone wanting a faster car than they need.

"It's a bull answer," Newton, Pa., student Seth Novick said later, "but it's still a true answer. You don't need it, but you can have it."

It was the seventh time Aposhian has hosted the group's summer tour, and he said he's trying to dull some of the gun hype that young Americans hear elsewhere.

Planer has guided each of those trips for the Atlanta-based youth education group and said many retain an anti-gun resolve -- and some are frightened to hear gunfire -- but they respect the debate.

"They walk away realizing sometimes the vilified other side isn't the enemy," he said. "It's just somebody who disagrees with them.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; US: Utah
KEYWORDS: antigun; bang; banglist; gunrights; nra; students

1 posted on 07/10/2009 10:01:01 PM PDT by greatdefender
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To: greatdefender

“Boston teenager Sarah Cohen acknowledged she’s no Second Amendment scholar, but she couldn’t understand Aposhian’s support for public ownership of machine guns.

“There’s a difference between having a gun for self-protection and having a gun for the military,” she said.

Josh Braude, a Northbrook, Ill., student, was disturbed by that Utah permitsconcealed weapons.

“That’s scary because people might have more of a tendency to fire the gun instead of calming down the argument,” he said.”

Sheep on parade........


2 posted on 07/10/2009 10:10:39 PM PDT by ButThreeLeftsDo (FR....Monthly Donors Wanted. I Upped My Monthly....Now, Up Yours.)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

>>“That’s scary because people might have more of a tendency to fire the gun instead of calming down the argument,” he said.”

Sheep on parade........<

Calming down the argument? Josh, if u took out the gun, you have your fists, right?

Don’t blame 17 year old Josh, he’s probably been indoctrinated by his socialist teachers and hippie parents.


3 posted on 07/10/2009 10:18:58 PM PDT by max americana
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To: greatdefender
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4 posted on 07/10/2009 10:22:59 PM PDT by Cobra64
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To: Peanut Gallery

ping


5 posted on 07/10/2009 10:27:24 PM PDT by Professional Engineer (FOBU: Mr. Gorbachev, tear down... Oooh, a well-proportioned derriere.)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo
“There’s a difference between having a gun for self-protection and having a gun for the military,” she said.

There is? What is it? Both are for self defense. The military is just self-defense implemented using professional soldiers, and the power of a sovereign nation.

If individuals don't have the right to own and use machine guns, then neither do governments—since any and all authority and power possessed or exercised by any government derives solely from whatever rights or powers are possessed by its citizens. Governments cannot rightfully have any power or authority that a single individual citizen does not also have, since the only possible source for the power or authority of a nation is its own people.

6 posted on 07/10/2009 10:28:13 PM PDT by sourcery (Obama Lied. The Economy Died!)
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To: greatdefender

Hmmmm. Jews....guns.....1930s.

Seems to me it ought to be real easy to convince Jews of the value of gun ownership.


7 posted on 07/10/2009 10:50:12 PM PDT by VeniVidiVici (ABC-AP-MSNBC-All Obama, All the time.)
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To: VeniVidiVici
These unfortunate kids are misguided. I'll never understand Jewish people who can't grasp the importance of private firearm ownership.
After suffering one of the most bitter chapters of the past millennium, people of the Jewish faith should know better.
8 posted on 07/10/2009 11:01:41 PM PDT by Blue Jays (Rock Hard, Ride Free)
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To: Cobra64

As to the picture of the three ladies at an ice cream parlor. That’s one way to make sure the guys who take out you daughter mind their manners!


9 posted on 07/10/2009 11:14:25 PM PDT by jakerobins ( NO)
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To: greatdefender

This is a great idea!

De-mystifying the whole situation is a great step!

This is what we need to do more of!


10 posted on 07/10/2009 11:20:26 PM PDT by Keith Brown (Among the other evils being unarmed brings you, it causes you to be despised Machiavelli.)
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To: greatdefender

A valiant effort, but largely a lost cause; no matter how logically and coherently you explain the obvious rationale behind the Second Amendment, even going so far as to illustrate the argument from the point of view of 1930’s Germany, Jews will continue to vote for anti-Second Amendment Democrats with knee-jerk uniformity.


11 posted on 07/11/2009 12:34:52 AM PDT by Jack Hammer
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To: Blue Jays
"I'll never understand Jewish people who can't grasp the importance of private firearm ownership."

Most of them live in eastern cities, as most Catholics do.


12 posted on 07/11/2009 1:08:28 AM PDT by familyop (cbt. engr. (cbt), NG, '89-' 96, Duncan Hunter or no-vote)
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To: greatdefender

A society without ownership of guns has not the means to protect themselves from the tyranny of government.

That is the only reason our government wants to take our guns from us.


13 posted on 07/11/2009 1:19:33 AM PDT by freekitty (Give me back my conservative vote.)
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To: familyop

Jews who live in crowded Tel Aviv, Haifa and Jerusalem or any kibbutz or farm near a hostile border are under no such Pollyanna illusions

and certainly those in the Warsaw Ghetto learned the hard way...God bless em

these kids are too clever by half and probably have a Mommy run household

the only way to reach these numbnuts is some real world time


14 posted on 07/11/2009 1:20:29 AM PDT by wardaddy (Proudly Anti-Abortion, not and will never be Pro-Life...........Sarah Palin, there is no substitute)
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To: Blue Jays
I'll never understand Jewish people who can't grasp the importance of private firearm ownership. After suffering one of the most bitter chapters of the past millennium, people of the Jewish faith should know better.

A couple of hours reading about the Warsaw uprising should be all it takes.

15 posted on 07/11/2009 1:26:21 AM PDT by Straight Vermonter (Posting from deep behind the Maple Curtain)
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To: Keith Brown
De-mystifying the whole situation is a great step!

You are right. Many of flatlanders who have moved here think that a gun is inherently evil. A trip to the range and they learn that it is just a tool but also a challenging and fun tool.

16 posted on 07/11/2009 1:28:55 AM PDT by Straight Vermonter (Posting from deep behind the Maple Curtain)
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To: VeniVidiVici
Hmmmm. Jews....guns.....1930s.

Seems to me it ought to be real easy to convince Jews of the value of gun ownership.

When it comes to 'never forget', these kids have forgotten.

17 posted on 07/11/2009 2:53:01 AM PDT by Quiller (When you're fighting to survive, there is no "try" -- there is only do, or do not.)
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To: wardaddy

Like Warsaw. Lexington and Concord & Waco were all about Gun Control.
barbra ann


18 posted on 07/11/2009 3:16:51 AM PDT by barb-tex (Regardless of what you may have heard Sarah is not gone!)
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To: greatdefender
One of the things that's been ingrained into liberal children by their parents and teachers for many years now isn't just that their side is "right" (come on, that's to be expected... Why would you teach a kid something you believe was wrong), but that their side is good, and the "wrong" side is actually evil. That opens up a whole new can of worms.

I grew up in a liberal Jewish household, and am something of the "black sheep" of my family - I like guns and motorcycles. I was actually told by a family member, "Jews don't believe in guns." This was from a highly intelligent person with a graduate degree from a real college. When I confronted her regarding the statement, should couldn't defend it, other than with the belief that bad people use guns, so guns are bad. And having a gun could make a good person do bad things. No logic could get through that crazy core belief.

Mark

19 posted on 07/11/2009 5:49:39 AM PDT by MarkL (Do I really look like a guy with a plan?)
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To: VeniVidiVici
Hmmmm. Jews....guns.....1930s.

Seems to me it ought to be real easy to convince Jews of the value of gun ownership.

Believe it or not, you're very, VERY wrong. I know this for a fact. I've been trying to do it with my own family for more than 35 years now...

Mark

20 posted on 07/11/2009 5:52:06 AM PDT by MarkL (Do I really look like a guy with a plan?)
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To: MarkL

I saw this for myself. The majority of American Jews seem to have a martyr complex as though it’s better to die without risking going to hell for defending their life.

They aren’t cowards but they seem to be very naive.

They also definitely have a “it can’t happen here” mentality.


21 posted on 07/11/2009 6:29:57 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA /Patron - TSRA- IDPA)
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To: Straight Vermonter

“You are right. Many of flatlanders who have moved here think that a gun is inherently evil. A trip to the range and they learn that it is just a tool but also a challenging and fun tool.”

I find it amusing how many newbies are suprised at how much FUN they have shooting.


22 posted on 07/11/2009 10:41:09 AM PDT by Keith Brown (Among the other evils being unarmed brings you, it causes you to be despised Machiavelli.)
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