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Palinís Choice: an Afterword - ALAN KEYES
Loyal to LIberty ^ | July 12, 2009 | Alan Keyes

Posted on 07/12/2009 9:15:01 PM PDT by EternalVigilance

In light of the comments and responses to my WND piece on Sarah Palin's resignation, I think some further observations and reflections are in order.

First it's important to remind everyone that I have never accepted the notion that Palin somehow represents adherence to the moral principles of republican, constitutional government. In a WND article right after McCain selected her as his running mate (Gov. Sarah Palin: Unequally yoked), I gave the reasons why. Later, when Charles Gibson asked her about Roe v. Wade she declared "I think that states should be able to decide that issue." In reaction, I wrote another article (Sarah Palin: Already compromised?) in which I observed that "Palin is being touted as an unequivocally pro-life politician…Her words suggest that, on the contrary, she regards the issue of respect for innocent life as a matter of personal opinion rather than public principle…." I went on to point out that "making a pro-life icon of someone who takes this falsified "states' rights" position and who, at the same time, relegates her pro-life views to the status of "personal opinion", places the pro-life movement firmly on the path of self-destruction." I cautioned that "If the issue of respect for innocent human life is simply a matter of "personal opinion," what justifies government interference (at any level) in the personal decision of the woman carrying the child, or the parents who provided the genetic material from which its life derives?...Where no overriding public interest can be ascertained, the state cannot impose its moral opinions upon individuals without infringing the freedom of conscientious decision essential for the free exercise of religion (which is also counted among our unalienable rights.)"

In these past writings, as in the latest one, I have tried to reason clearly and carefully about the issues of public principle and policy raised by Sarah Palin's words and actions. Unfortunately, both Palin's fans and the leftist media hacks who act as her detractors have focused on her personal life. The fans want people to accept her loving commitment to her Down syndrome child as conclusive evidence that she is a pro-life champion. Her detractors snipe about her temperament, or make reprehensible so-called jokes about her family members, trying with ridicule and character assassination to manipulate public opinion against her. Meanwhile, her fans respond as if these rabid attacks conclusively prove that she is the conservative champion of principled morality they so desperately want her to be.

Unfortunately, as I argued in the articles cited above, ugly media attacks don't' alter the facts that show, logically and conclusively, that she is not such a champion.

Now I find readers like David, who left a comment on this site, declaring his view that my latest piece "is what I would expect from the mudslinging left." This reaction exposes the insidious nature of this whole contrived situation. Once we accept "personal" matters (of action or opinion) as the basis for our support or rejection of political leaders, anyone who opposes them can be accused of mudslinging and slander, even when their opposition is based on careful reasoning about public policy and constitutional principle.

Like so much else going on in our public discussion these days, this makes fear rather than truth the standard of our public discourse. In my case it would be fear of being unfairly attacked as an un-Christian replicant of the left-wing character assassins. This reminds me of what liberal blacks have tried for years to do on account of my rejection of their leftist cant on welfare issues. In both cases my response must be the same, precisely because of Christ's example. I will try to follow what careful and conscientious reasoning from right principle leads me to believe is true. I will leave in God's hands the integrity of my identity. In the end, he knows the right name for me and will recognize me for what I am.

I could of course simply say nothing as others promote Palin as a representative of the constituency of moral principle. Unfortunately, when she proves inadequate to the task, human vanity will lead many to doubt the viability of the moral cause, rather than their own lack of discernment about the flaws in her public policy stances on the key moral issues. Such doubters will sow confusion and demoralization in the ranks of moral conservatives. This may in fact be the result intended by some of those who helped promote Palin to national prominence, though they tacitly despise the moral constituency she is supposed to represent. By speaking out, will people like me help to mitigate this bad result? Will our warnings prevent well intentioned people from relying too much upon a false hope? If so, it's worth the risk of being unpopular with Palin fans who insist that reasonable criticism of her public policy views and actions is no different than the partisan media's malevolent personal attacks.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Editorial
KEYWORDS: alanwho; chucklestheclown; keyes; palin; palin2012; sorelosersayswhat; tedbaxter
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1 posted on 07/12/2009 9:15:03 PM PDT by EternalVigilance
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To: EternalVigilance
The face of the Conservative Wing of the Republican Party


2 posted on 07/12/2009 9:19:15 PM PDT by jessduntno ("We have elected the King of the POst TUrtleS.")
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To: EternalVigilance
Alan Keyes


3 posted on 07/12/2009 9:22:28 PM PDT by EveningStar
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To: EternalVigilance

Keyes is a principled man- no question about it. The intentional destruction of human life is in direct opposition to the Declaration of Independence and is not a matter of States’ rights. The signers deliberately placed “Life” before Liberty and Happiness.


4 posted on 07/12/2009 9:24:24 PM PDT by Steelfish
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To: EternalVigilance

Alan Keyes, the man who gave us Barack Obama. No thanks.


5 posted on 07/12/2009 9:24:35 PM PDT by RightOnTheLeftCoast
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To: EternalVigilance

I understand his point.

But he’d better get used to looking at that face on the news. He hoped he’d be the one. It isn’t. Its her.

Thats OK. There is plenty of work for him to do too. We can use every voice.


6 posted on 07/12/2009 9:26:45 PM PDT by marron
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To: marron

It has nothing to do with personalities. What is at stake is the most important non-negotiable principles upon which our republic and our liberty rest.

In this case, Alan Keyes is right, and Sarah Palin is wrong.


7 posted on 07/12/2009 9:28:36 PM PDT by EternalVigilance ("The fiat of the Almighty, "Let there be Light," has not yet spent its force." - Frederick Douglass)
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To: Keyes

Hey you, haven’t you got the word? You can shut up for now.. and later. You’re day is gone. You blew it. Haven’t time, anymore, for your incompetence.

8 posted on 07/12/2009 9:28:49 PM PDT by I see my hands (_8(|)
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To: EternalVigilance

Alan Keyes needs to hire a web designer.


9 posted on 07/12/2009 9:29:59 PM PDT by exist
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To: EternalVigilance

Very good article. Would that we lived in a country where we could look more at voting records, actions and activities and less on personalities, personal lives and speeches.

I am coming to absolutely hate getting into the personal lives of each political candidate (or anyone thrust into the spotlight). It is if we as a country are becoming total voyeurs.

In a wonderful republic, we would be color blind, gender blind and assess less on what we “think” and more on what we “know”. I have a bad feeling that we tend to project our own opinions (good and bad) on the current batch of front row politicians.

Thank you, Mr. Keyes, for attempting to point out actual records. I am not looking for a conclusion, just information. I think Sarah Palin is terrific, but want to not be blinded by my own prejudices.


10 posted on 07/12/2009 9:32:21 PM PDT by The Californian (The door to the room of success swings on the hinges of opposition. Bob Jones, Sr.)
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To: EternalVigilance

Say, isn’t envy one of the seven deadly sins?


11 posted on 07/12/2009 9:34:50 PM PDT by Interesting Times (For the truth about "swift boating" see ToSetTheRecordStraight.com)
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To: EternalVigilance
Thank God Keyes feels the way he does. I can't think of anything that could hurt a politician more, in the eyes of the average American voter, than an endorsement from Allan Keyes.
12 posted on 07/12/2009 9:35:29 PM PDT by Prokopton
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To: EternalVigilance

Thank goodness Alan Keyes never got elected dog catcher...


13 posted on 07/12/2009 9:39:17 PM PDT by Mariner
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To: Prokopton

Alan Keyes cares more about Sarah Palin than her supporters, obviously.

If they cared about her they would help respectfully correct her serious errors in understanding of the core principles of the country.

Either the unalienable rights to life and liberty are protected and secured for all, or those rights will be destroyed for us all. And we’re already far down that road.


14 posted on 07/12/2009 9:41:02 PM PDT by EternalVigilance ("The fiat of the Almighty, "Let there be Light," has not yet spent its force." - Frederick Douglass)
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To: EternalVigilance

Roe v Wade is a a states rights issue and not an abortion issue. It should be handled at the state level and not the Federal which is what Palin was saying. I love Keyes but here he is wrong.

Pray for America and Gov Palin


15 posted on 07/12/2009 9:41:13 PM PDT by bray (Rope & Chains)
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To: Steelfish

Amen. His tea party speech was stellar too.
He is a true patriot and a man of integrity.


16 posted on 07/12/2009 9:41:15 PM PDT by JaneNC (I)
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To: bray
It should be handled at the state level and not the Federal which is what Palin was saying.

What other unalienable rights do you want the states to be allowed to alienate if they please besides the right to live?

17 posted on 07/12/2009 9:42:57 PM PDT by EternalVigilance ("The fiat of the Almighty, "Let there be Light," has not yet spent its force." - Frederick Douglass)
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To: EternalVigilance
A simple, practical answer that would mean the undoing of Roe v. Wade is what Sarah Palin provided.

Her own life demonstrates her commitment to pro-life principles.

So, I see no problem here for her, and Alan Keyes is sounding rather sour for trying to create a problem.

18 posted on 07/12/2009 9:44:14 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: EternalVigilance
Do I agree with Sarah Palin 100%? No.
Do I agree with Alan Keyes 100%? No.
Do I agree with George Bush 100%? No.
Do I agree with Ronald Reagan 100%? No.

But Alan Keyes would fully discount any opinion I may have because I do not follow his opinions 100%. Sorry, Alan, but politics is the art of the possible and it appears that you fail.
19 posted on 07/12/2009 9:44:31 PM PDT by brityank (The more I learn about the Constitution, the more I realise this Government is UNconstitutional !!)
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To: jessduntno

Allen Keys making “good” the enemy of “perfect” once again. How typical. Does anyone out there think Sarah Palin is not pro life? Anyone? Allen Keys is the only one good enough for Allen Keys. lol, I remember him turning personally on Steve Forbes in a 1999 primary debate. I will never forgive him for that and the part he played in seeing W get the GOP nomination. I used to really like him, then I learned that Allen Keys is all about Allen Keys.


20 posted on 07/12/2009 9:44:58 PM PDT by jpsb
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To: EternalVigilance

Dude, your gonna get the same treatment as you did hitting at ol Fred, methinks. The coronation has already started.


21 posted on 07/12/2009 9:46:25 PM PDT by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: EternalVigilance

Palin is 100% correct on this issue; abortion belongs to the states.

Abortion was granted as a right in the 9th amendment regardless of whether someone thinks it is ok or not. Let the states decide whether they support it or not and exercise their 10th Amendment rights.

Wouldn’t it be gratifying to actually go back to the rule of law at some point?


22 posted on 07/12/2009 9:47:14 PM PDT by wireplay
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To: EternalVigilance
Now I find readers like David, who left a comment on this site, declaring his view that my latest piece "is what I would expect from the mudslinging left." This reaction exposes the insidious nature of this whole contrived situation. Once we accept "personal" matters (of action or opinion) as the basis for our support or rejection of political leaders, anyone who opposes them can be accused of mudslinging and slander, even when their opposition is based on careful reasoning about public policy and constitutional principle.

Keyes nailed the Palin Amen Chorus with this comment.

23 posted on 07/12/2009 9:49:45 PM PDT by FTJM
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To: jpsb

I loved Allen Keyes in “Borat.”


24 posted on 07/12/2009 9:52:26 PM PDT by NCPAC (http://darknessrising-steffen.blogspot.com/)
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To: EternalVigilance
I could of course simply say nothing as others promote Palin as a representative of the constituency of moral principle. Unfortunately, when she proves inadequate to the task, human vanity will lead many to doubt the viability of the moral cause, rather than their own lack of discernment about the flaws in her public policy stances on the key moral issues.

I find Keyes questioning Palin's morality quite humorous, as he has basically disavowed his lesbian daughter.

25 posted on 07/12/2009 9:53:19 PM PDT by rintense (Senior Marketing / IT / UX architect unemployed and looking for work. Freepmail me if you have leads)
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To: EternalVigilance

Doesn’t matter. Roe v Wade was and is a States Rights issue and she is a Governor. Why do you think the left wants to keep it in Federal hands, so it will never be voted on.

Keyes is a one issue person, God Bless him but he knows he is not being honest about this. He is splitting hairs and to call Palin anything but Pro Life is unfair.

Pray for America


26 posted on 07/12/2009 9:56:12 PM PDT by bray (Rope & Chains)
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To: pissant
That's okay. Conservatism, and in fact the survival of our republic depends on this one fundamental thing.

And so, like Alan, I'm willing to endure any scorn, any abuse, to stand on behalf of the full import of the following words:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men..."

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

"No State shall...deprive any person of life...without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

27 posted on 07/12/2009 9:56:35 PM PDT by EternalVigilance ("The fiat of the Almighty, "Let there be Light," has not yet spent its force." - Frederick Douglass)
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To: Prokopton

Watching Alan Keyes over many years, I have sadly come to the conclusion that he his in love with himself. I say that sadly, because in his earlier years in politics, he was a refreshing voice for Conservatives.
After those productive times, he started slipping in influence. Out of nowhere he moved to Illinois and put up a very inadequate campaign against Obama in the senate race.
Now when I see him on tv what comes across is nihilism....he loves to hear the sound of his own voice, and he is very proud (rightly so) of his command of English.
If he was as influential as so many of his backers seem to think, what have been the results of his influence on members of his own race?
I might get flamed for this as being a racist comment, but really, where did this guy think he could do the most to further the Conservative cause?


28 posted on 07/12/2009 9:57:16 PM PDT by Islander2 (Abort Planned Parenthood and other abortuaries)
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To: Prokopton

Good point, we don’t want Keyes endorsing Palin not helpful. I just don’t think he comes across as respectable.


29 posted on 07/12/2009 9:57:28 PM PDT by toddausauras
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To: bray
I remember back before Roe v Wade and the pro aborts deliberately took it to federal court because they said it was too expensive to try state by state as a lot of states already had laws against abortion...

It is a states right and not a constitutional right...In all likely hood if put to a vote in the states, most states would again make laws against it....And the concentration of anti-abortions people would only have several states to influence instead of the federal judges and liberal congress critters in Washington...It would remove a big democrat push.....

30 posted on 07/12/2009 9:58:25 PM PDT by goat granny
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To: EternalVigilance
I think Alan would make an excellent advisor to Sarah Palin. I wonder if they could agree to work together to advance moral absolutes with a precision and clarity that openminded folks would embrace.
31 posted on 07/12/2009 9:58:59 PM PDT by smoothsailing
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To: wireplay
Palin is 100% correct on this issue; abortion belongs to the states.

Do you believe the same thing about your unalienable right to keep and bear arms? Your right to free speech? Assembly? Petition? What?

Please explain to me why you, and Governor Palin, can claim that the right to keep and bear arms is for all persons, but that the first right, the right to live, is somehow "up to the states"?

32 posted on 07/12/2009 9:59:55 PM PDT by EternalVigilance ("The fiat of the Almighty, "Let there be Light," has not yet spent its force." - Frederick Douglass)
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To: EternalVigilance
Alan Keyes cares more about Sarah Palin than her supporters, obviously.

Alan Keyes fairly drips with self-rightousness. Alan Keyes cares about Alan Keyes and therefore pays little attention to the veritable lumber yard in his own eye.

33 posted on 07/12/2009 10:01:17 PM PDT by Prokopton
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To: Prokopton

No he doesn’t. He has addressed Governor Palin with much solicitude and respect. He’s simply challenged her concerning some of the most basic premises of our free republic, ones that she clearly has wrong.


34 posted on 07/12/2009 10:03:25 PM PDT by EternalVigilance ("The fiat of the Almighty, "Let there be Light," has not yet spent its force." - Frederick Douglass)
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To: EternalVigilance
It has nothing to do with personalities. What is at stake is the most important non-negotiable principles upon which our republic and our liberty rest.

In this case, Alan Keyes is right, and Sarah Palin is wrong.

Please think about this. Abortion is the taking of a human life, and therefore a homicide. Killing an intruder in your home is the taking of a human life, and therefore homicide. Many states have laws which define justifiable homicide, such as self defense, and do not prosecute a person for using force in such instances. What you, and apparently Mr. Keyes, are actually saying is that states have no jurisdiction to make this definition, and all homicides must be acted upon by a federal power. Do you honestly believe that? Does Alan Keyes really believe that? I doubt it.

In this case, Sarah Palin is right, and Alan Keyes is wrong. Very wrong.

35 posted on 07/12/2009 10:04:20 PM PDT by cothrige (Ego vero Evangelio non crederem, ni si me catholicae Ecclesiae commoveret auctoritas.)
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To: EternalVigilance

Note to self: Ignore the posters who are acting towards Alan Keyes like the Left has acted towards Sarah Palin and Alan Keyes.


36 posted on 07/12/2009 10:05:30 PM PDT by EternalVigilance ("The fiat of the Almighty, "Let there be Light," has not yet spent its force." - Frederick Douglass)
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To: cothrige

No, it is you who have it wrong. All officers of government, at all levels, have a sworn duty to the Constitution to protect innocent human life. No officer, no government, no state, no individual, has a right to abet, act, or allow the killing of innocents.


37 posted on 07/12/2009 10:07:17 PM PDT by EternalVigilance ("The fiat of the Almighty, "Let there be Light," has not yet spent its force." - Frederick Douglass)
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To: EternalVigilance

I hear ya. But, unlike Alan, however, you do realize that Palin is an ally of the pro-life movement. I’m all for a constitutional amendment (even though I think simple legislation SHOULD be more than adequate), but I’m ALSO for overturning R. V. W., which is apparently Palin’s position.


38 posted on 07/12/2009 10:08:20 PM PDT by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: EternalVigilance
Note to self: Ignore the posters who are acting towards Alan Keyes like the Left has acted towards Sarah Palin and Alan Keyes.

Please. I voted for Alan Keyes! I never voted for Palin. But, in this instance, he is wrong.

You cannot argue that the right to life is too fundamental to belong to the states. All people have the right to life, otherwise it isn't "unalienable," and yet the states have some executed, and some are killed by other citizens without violation of the law. If what Alan Keyes is saying is true then only the Federal government can define whether a criminal can be executed or whether a citizen can act in self defense. Who in their right mind would argue for that?

39 posted on 07/12/2009 10:10:58 PM PDT by cothrige (Ego vero Evangelio non crederem, ni si me catholicae Ecclesiae commoveret auctoritas.)
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To: jessduntno
Whenever I look at her, I cannot help but wonder how terrific a feeling it must be to wake up in the morning to see her laying next to me.

To say the least, I would be in 7th heaven to wake up everymorning for 8 years to see her face in the white house everyday. That may be the closest I will ever get to waking up with her.



I am definitely in love with an image I see, yet do not know.
40 posted on 07/12/2009 10:12:20 PM PDT by FredJake
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To: EternalVigilance

“It has nothing to do with personalities. What is at stake is the most important non-negotiable principles upon which our republic and our liberty rest.”

It does, in fact, have to do with principles. I couldn’t agree more. In many ways, this feels like our last campaign.

I understand you are talking about global principles, conservative principles, but the gifted leader must carry them personally.

I have not seen anyone with this much courage and commitment to stated personal and political beliefs in my adult life...which now spans many years. I hope I am right...if not, I don’t think I would recover from the disappointment...the shock of the miserable performance of the last candidate will be with me for a long time.

I am sure she has foibles, I am sure she has flaws, but I will not believe she is not true at heart, that she is not just who I think she is. I may be let down or disappointed by her, but I doubt sincerely that I will be surprised. I can’t think of a better starting point. Or a more bitter ending for us all, if we are wrong. I think we are at that point in history exactly...2-3 or more SCOTUS appointments in the next two terms on top of the disastrous handling of the economy so far will put the next POTUS in no less a difficult position than one could possibly imagine.

I can’t think of anything that could have reassured me more than for her to withdraw from the petty politics and the quagmire in which she found herself. I think she will become whatever we allow her to be, that she has the ability to be our rock, that she has that much potential.

Just my opinion.


41 posted on 07/12/2009 10:15:37 PM PDT by jessduntno ("We have elected the King of the POst TUrtleS.")
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To: EternalVigilance
No, it is you who have it wrong. All officers of government, at all levels, have a sworn duty to the Constitution to protect innocent human life. No officer, no government, no state, no individual, has a right to abet, act, or allow the killing of innocents.

No, nobody has the right to kill an innocent, but it is up to the states to define what homicides are justifiable and which are not. Homicide, including abortion, is reserved to the states and the people. There is no way around it. Our Constitution never defined abortion as belonging to the Federal government, and so it doesn't. Either we follow the Constitution, or we don't. The Left sure doesn't, and I don't really want to be like them.

42 posted on 07/12/2009 10:15:41 PM PDT by cothrige (Ego vero Evangelio non crederem, ni si me catholicae Ecclesiae commoveret auctoritas.)
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To: EternalVigilance

EV you have the courage to state logic and truth regarding the hysteria over the Palin personality cult. I have not had the stomach to put up with it so I have stayed away from the non-stop Palin threads on FR. Alan Keyes has not joined the left he has respectfully stated his objection to SP and that is not to be tolerated on FR. The devotion to this politician without any hesitation is one of the things that turns me off to the Palinbots of whom I used to belong. It is ironic that this is the same type of unquestioned devotion we criticize of the hussein utopians.


43 posted on 07/12/2009 10:16:21 PM PDT by strongbow
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To: cothrige

I don’t know why you want to try and conflate the lawful killing of the guilty, which is both biblical and constitutional, with the killing of innocent children. This is nonsensical.

The US Constitution, and the constitutions of all fifty states, forbid the killing of innocents.

The only way the Blackmun court could get away with it was to dehumanize the child, to declare them non-persons. And so that’s exactly what they did.

But even that old devil Blackmun, whose legacy is awash in the blood of tens of millions of innocents, said in the majority Roe decision that if the child in the womb is a PERSON that they are clearly protected by the Constitution.

Do you believe that the child in the womb is a PERSON, “cothrige”?

Because if you admit to the obvious truth that they are PERSONS, and you still say that a state can allow their wanton killing, in a very true sense you’re worse than Blackmun.


44 posted on 07/12/2009 10:21:24 PM PDT by EternalVigilance ("The fiat of the Almighty, "Let there be Light," has not yet spent its force." - Frederick Douglass)
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To: EternalVigilance

“Note to self: Ignore the posters who are acting towards Alan Keyes like the Left has acted towards Sarah Palin and Alan Keyes.”

By making the above remark you have just tried to put Sarah Palin supporters in the same boat with the Left. If that is your true feeling, you leave no room for rational discussion.


45 posted on 07/12/2009 10:21:30 PM PDT by Islander2 (Abort Planned Parenthood and other abortuaries)
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To: strongbow

Thank you for that.


46 posted on 07/12/2009 10:22:36 PM PDT by EternalVigilance ("The fiat of the Almighty, "Let there be Light," has not yet spent its force." - Frederick Douglass)
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To: Islander2

I’m fine with rational discussion. That’s why I posted this here. But if you’re honest you’ll see that some of the posts on this thread are of the identical quality of the Left’s attacks on both Sarah Palin and Alan Keyes. Hence my remark.


47 posted on 07/12/2009 10:24:01 PM PDT by EternalVigilance ("The fiat of the Almighty, "Let there be Light," has not yet spent its force." - Frederick Douglass)
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To: strongbow

“It is ironic that this is the same type of unquestioned devotion we criticize of the hussein utopians.”

A truly awful comparison. We have enough information about both to make an informed decision as to their character, their performance under pressure and their personal histories and actions. What is it, exactly that SP has done in her entire life that doesn’t mark her as courageous, principled, tough and honest? Got any reason to call me, an unahshamed Palin supporter, a “Palinbot?”

First, why the rude?

Second, what exactly do you have to support a contention that she does not have what it takes?

Anything?


48 posted on 07/12/2009 10:24:23 PM PDT by jessduntno ("We have elected the King of the POst TUrtleS.")
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To: strongbow

Liking and favoring the candidacy of the most popular GOP candidate that is a sitting Governor and only months ago was the GOP candidate for vice president of the United States makes a lot of sense.

Worshiping at the alter of the “perennial” candidate who has never won a race and never will and that only got 47,600 votes in the 2008 election (his fourth presidential effort) is cult like.


49 posted on 07/12/2009 10:24:55 PM PDT by ansel12 (Romney (guns)"instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people")
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To: FredJake

“I am definitely in love with an image I see, yet do not know.”

Hopefully, we are not all THAT shallow.


50 posted on 07/12/2009 10:27:01 PM PDT by jessduntno ("We have elected the King of the POst TUrtleS.")
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