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Small Business Faces Big Bite (8% payroll tax for health insurance)
Wall Street Journal ^ | July 15, 2009 | Janet Adamy

Posted on 07/15/2009 8:28:55 AM PDT by reaganaut1

House Democrats on Tuesday unveiled sweeping health-care legislation that would hit all but the smallest businesses with a penalty equal to 8% of payroll if they fail to provide health insurance to workers.

The House bill, which also would impose new taxes on the wealthy estimated to bring in more than $544 billion over a decade, came as lawmakers in the Senate raced against a self-imposed deadline of this week to introduce a bill in time for action this summer.

Senators face a tougher battle because they are striving for a bipartisan bill. Key senators are weighing a combination of several more-modest fund-raising provisions, including some new fees on health-care industries.

Under the House measure, employers with payrolls exceeding $400,000 a year would have to provide health insurance or pay the 8% penalty. Employers with payrolls between $250,000 and $400,000 a year would pay a smaller penalty, and those less than $250,000 would be exempt. Certain small firms would get tax credits to help buy coverage.

The relatively low thresholds for penalties triggered the sharpest criticism yet from employer groups, who said the burden on small business is too high and doesn't do enough to help them expand insurance coverage.

"This bill costs too much, it covers too few and it has way too much government involvement," said Michelle Dimarob, a lobbyist with the National Federation of Independent Business, the main trade group for small firms. "Small business doesn't want any of those things."

According to 2006 data from the federation, businesses with between five and nine workers, representing about one million employers, had an average payroll of around $375,000 a year. A report from the Kaiser Family Foundation found that only about half of firms with three to nine workers offered health benefits in 2008.

(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Front Page News; Government
KEYWORDS: payrolltax; smallbusiness; taxes; taxincreases
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The minimum wage is rising about 10% this month. Unemployment is 9.7% and trending higher, according to government figures. And now Dems want an 8% payroll tax for businesses that do not provide health insurance. How high do they want unemployment to go?
1 posted on 07/15/2009 8:28:55 AM PDT by reaganaut1
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To: reaganaut1

Business people know how to play this. You divide your business into two businesses. The “other pocket” game.


2 posted on 07/15/2009 8:32:30 AM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: reaganaut1
If you are a struggling mid-size business owner and you have a choice between:

  1. Providing health insurance for all employees
  2. Paying an 8% payroll tax if you don't
  3. Cutting payroll by 8% or more in order to pay the tax or provide health insurance . . .

    Three big guesses as to which course you will select.


3 posted on 07/15/2009 8:35:09 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Are there any men left in Washington? Or, are there only cowards? Ahmad Shah Massoud)
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To: reaganaut1

Pay your taxes. :)

Someone has too...


4 posted on 07/15/2009 8:35:39 AM PDT by Tzimisce (No thanks. We have enough government already. - The Tick)
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To: reaganaut1

The question I have is, assuming enough conservative Republicans are elected in 2010 and hopefully 0 is replaced in 2012, how much of this damage can be undone?


5 posted on 07/15/2009 8:36:36 AM PDT by EscapedDutch ("Socialism is great until you run out of other people's money" - Lady Margaret Thatcher)
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To: Sacajaweau
Business people know how to play this. You divide your business into two businesses. The “other pocket” game.

Shhhhhh. Don't want the mental giants in Washington to catch on to this and add pages and pages of rules forbidding this type of behavior.

6 posted on 07/15/2009 8:38:47 AM PDT by 3catsanadog (I plan to give the new President the same respect and dignity the other side gave Bush.)
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To: EscapedDutch

That’s a good question.


7 posted on 07/15/2009 8:42:26 AM PDT by keats5 (Not all of us are hypnotized.)
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To: reaganaut1

Combine the cost of covering all full-time employees with insurance to the added energy costs of cap and trade, and you are looking at many small businesses closing and laying off or not hiring new employees. You think 9.5% unemployment is bad, you ain’t seen nothing yet.

I would ask “Do the Dems have any idea what they are doing?”, but I think they know exactly what they are doing.


8 posted on 07/15/2009 8:44:17 AM PDT by CarWashMan
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To: EscapedDutch
The question I have is, assuming enough conservative Republicans are elected in 2010 and hopefully 0 is replaced in 2012, how much of this damage can be undone?

How much of SS, Medicare and Medicaid has been undone in years of GOP leadership?

9 posted on 07/15/2009 8:46:39 AM PDT by randita
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To: Vigilanteman
If you are a struggling mid-size business owner and you have a choice between:

1. Providing health insurance for all employees

2. Paying an 8% payroll tax if you don't

3. Cutting payroll by 8% or more in order to pay the tax or provide health insurance . . .

Three big guesses as to which course you will select.

Patriotic Americans will choose #1 or #2.

Sincerely,

Joe Biden

10 posted on 07/15/2009 8:46:55 AM PDT by adm5 (YOU CANNOT FIX CAPITALISM WITH SOCIALISM! -Glenn Beck)
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To: randita; EscapedDutch

It’s a question of guts. The 1994 Republicans actually got some real reforms in. The 2010 Republicans (wishful thinking) will have to have the same mindset.


11 posted on 07/15/2009 8:50:15 AM PDT by GOP_Party_Animal
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To: EscapedDutch
The question I have is, assuming enough conservative Republicans are elected in 2010 and hopefully 0 is replaced in 2012, how much of this damage can be undone?

I don't expect that Obama will permit this to occur. I expect that ACORN will make sure that conservatives are not elected, and more liberals are. Then, I expect that the unspent stimulus money will be released to create a Civilian Security Force that will be used to pacify the country when elections are canceled or stolen.

In 20 years, Obama will still be our Dear Leader.

12 posted on 07/15/2009 8:53:18 AM PDT by Lazamataz ("If they taxed condoms and toilet paper, they'd have us coming and going." - Lazamataz, 2002)
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To: Sacajaweau

If that’s not an option, I guess you could stop contributing to the employees 401K.

Aren’t RATS wonderful??!!!


13 posted on 07/15/2009 8:54:28 AM PDT by freespirited (Money doesn't buy happiness but will pay a research staff to study the problem.)
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To: 3catsanadog

Yeah, they will do the “if you have more than 1 business, the combined total is” or some nonsense.

Who knows? that may be in the bill. After all, nobody gets to read them.


14 posted on 07/15/2009 8:55:05 AM PDT by dforest (Who is the real Jim Thompson? I am.)
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To: randita

I’m not quite as jaded (for once!) SS and Medicare are popular and don’t have organized opposition.


15 posted on 07/15/2009 8:56:06 AM PDT by freespirited (Money doesn't buy happiness but will pay a research staff to study the problem.)
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To: Lazamataz
In that case:

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."

Thomas Jefferson

16 posted on 07/15/2009 8:59:17 AM PDT by EscapedDutch ("Socialism is great until you run out of other people's money" - Lady Margaret Thatcher)
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To: Vigilanteman

And don’t forget more contract workers. 1099s all over!


17 posted on 07/15/2009 9:00:53 AM PDT by NewHampshireDuo
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To: reaganaut1
That's the ticket, you morons!! Kill the American dream of getting ahead by hard work and perseverance. This is going to destroy America!

Small businesses are the backbone of America. This plan will cost millions of employees to lose their jobs! If they can't kill them with forced employee health care, this additional tax is going to do it.

18 posted on 07/15/2009 9:02:00 AM PDT by NRA2BFree
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To: reaganaut1

looks to be the start of a Golden Age for Indian offshore outsourcing


19 posted on 07/15/2009 9:02:11 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: Tzimisce

Work harder, millions on welfare are depending on you.


20 posted on 07/15/2009 9:10:13 AM PDT by savedbygrace (You are only leading if someone follows. Otherwise, you just wandered off... [Smokin' Joe])
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To: reaganaut1
If republicans had any interest in making a comeback and any discernible savvy at all they would vote as a solid block against Sotomayor, Cap & Tax, the Health Insurance scam, and every other Socialist nominee and Welfare State, Nanny State, Socialist program Obama and the democrats are pushing.

Let the democrats have total ownership of every incremental step taken to destroy America.

Instead, weak-kneed, spineless republicans give democrats cover and allow them to claim bipartisan support.

21 posted on 07/15/2009 9:12:11 AM PDT by Iron Munro (If you cannot be a good example you can serve as horrible warning - like Obama.)
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To: indylindy

As with pension and profit-sharing plans, the government will consider the separate businesses as one and the same, under one “controlling entity.”


22 posted on 07/15/2009 9:13:39 AM PDT by Texas Mulerider
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To: Lazamataz

I am trying to eat my lunch. After reading that I am getting indigestion.


23 posted on 07/15/2009 9:20:19 AM PDT by dforest (Who is the real Jim Thompson? I am.)
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To: reaganaut1

A PENALTY for being successful! Only in America!


24 posted on 07/15/2009 9:22:36 AM PDT by unixfox (The 13th Amendment Abolished Slavery, The 16th Amendment Reinstated It !)
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To: Vigilanteman

Or you could reduce your payroll to under $250K and remain exempt...costing Americans’ jobs.

But don’t worry, the Gov’t will have their back. More folks on the dole means more Dem voters in 2010.


25 posted on 07/15/2009 9:23:38 AM PDT by bamahead (Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master. -- Sallust)
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To: Buckeye McFrog
looks to be the start of a Golden Age for Indian offshore outsourcing

Bingo! Why hire any employee in the USA to do any non-physical labor when you can contract with someone in India to do the same thing for much less. Right now we have companies in New England that advertise college educated software engineers with a fully loaded hourly cost of $12.00. The engineers are in India of course.

To put it in perspective, the health insurance premium alone for an engineer with a family in New England is about $10.00 per hour.

Its insane to increase costs in this country when we have to compete against businesses worldwide -- many with much lower costs already.

26 posted on 07/15/2009 9:30:43 AM PDT by freeandfreezing
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To: Sacajaweau

Business people know how to play this. You divide your business into two businesses. The “other pocket” game.
______________
BINGO, some people were talking about that at a meeting I had this morning.


27 posted on 07/15/2009 9:34:59 AM PDT by mojitojoe (All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.)
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To: Vigilanteman

4th choice...... what if millions just refuse to play?


28 posted on 07/15/2009 9:37:00 AM PDT by mojitojoe (All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.)
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To: Lazamataz

In 20 years, Obama will still be our Dear Leader
____________
If Americans rolled over and let that ever happen, this is not my country anymore.I will watch from afar.


29 posted on 07/15/2009 9:39:13 AM PDT by mojitojoe (All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.)
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To: indylindy

Yeah, they will do the “if you have more than 1 business, the combined total is” or some nonsense.
_____________
Put the other business in another family members name. There are so many ways around that it’s ridiculous and people will work around it.


30 posted on 07/15/2009 9:40:31 AM PDT by mojitojoe (All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.)
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To: reaganaut1

Now there will be fewer wealthy, and so they will have to redefine “wealthy.” Eventually it will hit the ordinary person, and that is what they want.

Democrats don’t care about the working people. They want to make us all dependent on government so that we will vote democrat.

Not me. I will NEVER vote for ANY democrat ANYTIME EVER.


31 posted on 07/15/2009 9:41:26 AM PDT by Leftism is Mentally Deranged (Democrat party: just another name for marxism)
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To: AdmSmith; Berosus; bigheadfred; Convert from ECUSA; dervish; Ernest_at_the_Beach; Fred Nerks; ...

Have a great day, all.


32 posted on 07/15/2009 9:44:34 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/__Since Jan 3, 2004__Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
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To: Vigilanteman

But if the cost of private group insurane goes up over 8% of payroll because of all the required new coverages, ie, pre-existing conditions, mental, dental, etc., then what will happen is that the business will pay the 8% to the government and cede the health care system to the government.

A neat way to ensure that nationalized health insurance is foregone conclusion.


33 posted on 07/15/2009 9:55:32 AM PDT by wildbill
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To: freeandfreezing
I saw some ag research jobs in the Pocatello area a couple months ago. They were looking for people with BS/MS/PhD and offering...$14.00/hour. That's about the top end for skilled labor without a degree in the area.
34 posted on 07/15/2009 9:56:14 AM PDT by Myrddin
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To: Lazamataz
"The question I have is, assuming enough conservative Republicans are elected in 2010 and hopefully 0 is replaced in 2012, how much of this damage can be undone?

I don't expect that Obama will permit this to occur. I expect that ACORN will make sure that conservatives are not elected, and more liberals are. Then, I expect that the unspent stimulus money will be released to create a Civilian Security Force that will be used to pacify the country when elections are canceled or stolen.

In 20 years, Obama will still be our Dear Leader."

I think you are correct. Combine this with all of the other anti-competitive, tax everything, anti energy develop, etc. initiatives and Obama looks like he is deliberately trying to collapse the economy. It sound a lot like the Cloward-Piven Strategy to bring about a new society and governance for Dear Leader.

35 posted on 07/15/2009 9:58:52 AM PDT by Truth29
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To: reaganaut1

If anyone is wondering what that 8% is called,
it is normally called “Profit”.

Kiss it goodby, it’s not part of the “NEW” economy.


36 posted on 07/15/2009 10:01:51 AM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: mojitojoe
That's why any proposal will be changed in time....if not sooner....

This is going to be no different than the Medicare Tax....I'm sure the intention is to make one large program that you pay into as soon as you draw a paycheck or your employer does...like Unemployment Ins..

37 posted on 07/15/2009 10:02:06 AM PDT by Sacajaweau
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Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: Leftism is Mentally Deranged
Not me. I will NEVER vote for ANY democrat ANYTIME EVER.

You won't have to. ACORN's imaginary three voters will offset your vote and give a two vote lead to the communist candidate.

39 posted on 07/15/2009 10:28:10 AM PDT by Lazamataz ("If they taxed condoms and toilet paper, they'd have us coming and going." - Lazamataz, 2002)
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To: reaganaut1

“A report from the Kaiser Family Foundation found that only about half of firms with three to nine workers offered health benefits in 2008.”

Because profit margins vary according to the type of business you’re in. Just because you have 9 workers with a payroll of over $ 250,000 doesn’t mean you’re necessarily profitable. Or even if you are profitable, the profit margin could be minuscule. Again, it depends on the type of business you’re in. Now slap in an 8 % tax and you could very well be losing money, or forced to subsidize the business with personal funds. Of course, Democrats who think money grows on trees, just assume that you’re rich and profitable, and that you’ll somehow figure out a way to make the payments


40 posted on 07/15/2009 11:02:27 AM PDT by ScottfromNJ
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To: reaganaut1

I hate this current government.

Its is everything America was founded AGAINST.

Liberals make me sick.


41 posted on 07/15/2009 11:13:30 AM PDT by Danae (Conservative does not equal Republican. Conservative does not compromise.)
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To: adm5

” Patriotic Americans will choose #1 or #2.
Sincerely,

Joe Biden “

And how many jobs has Joe Biden created?
I mean other than late-night comedy hosts who stay employed on his many gaffes?

This should be the GOP slogan in 2010: The next jobs the Democrats kill could be yours.


42 posted on 07/15/2009 11:31:43 AM PDT by WOSG (Why is Obama trying to bankrupt America with $16 trillion in spending over the next 4 years?)
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To: bamahead
"More folks on the dole means more Dem voters in 2010."

GOP needs to turn that around ...

Unemployed? Under-employed? Thank the Democrats for killing American jobs


43 posted on 07/15/2009 11:32:56 AM PDT by WOSG (Why is Obama trying to bankrupt America with $16 trillion in spending over the next 4 years?)
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To: Truth29

“I think you are correct. Combine this with all of the other anti-competitive, tax everything, anti energy develop, etc. initiatives and Obama looks like he is deliberately trying to collapse the economy. It sound a lot like the Cloward-Piven Strategy to bring about a new society and governance for Dear Leader. “

We can out-Alinsky Obama with the Tea Party grassroots conservative response. Obama’s technique is able to destroy conservative elites, but it wont destroy belief in freedom among the people. We need to be most active now than ever.


44 posted on 07/15/2009 11:34:59 AM PDT by WOSG (Why is Obama trying to bankrupt America with $16 trillion in spending over the next 4 years?)
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To: reaganaut1
legislation that would hit all but the smallest businesses

What is a small business to 0bama? under 500, 200? under 30?

45 posted on 07/15/2009 11:43:01 AM PDT by Dubya-M-DeesWent2SyriaStupid!
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To: WOSG

Between cap and trade and health care bye bye jobs.


46 posted on 07/15/2009 12:16:01 PM PDT by Arizona Carolyn
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To: reaganaut1

How much SIMPLER it would be to just OUTLAW “insurance” for health cost purposes.


47 posted on 07/15/2009 12:38:29 PM PDT by 2harddrive (then)
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To: reaganaut1

The tax on the wealthy is just a scam to get this passed.

No way the wealthy could afford intensive care for every illegal alien with the sniffles, not to mention Oprah’s slick new “personal trainer”.

Within one year, the entire tax burden for this fiasco will “face shortfalls”, need “minor adjustments”, and fall on the middle class.

You know it, I know it, and all the Libs know it.

The only people who don’t know it are the middle class rubes still thinking, “gollee, free health care and the rich have to pay, SIGN ME UP!”


48 posted on 07/15/2009 12:38:56 PM PDT by jeffers
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To: long hard slogger; FormerACLUmember; Harrius Magnus; hocndoc; parousia; Hydroshock; skippermd; ...


Socialized Medicine aka Universal Health Care PING LIST

FReepmail me if you want to be added to or removed from this ping list.

**This is a high volume ping list! (sign of the times)**


49 posted on 07/15/2009 1:17:51 PM PDT by socialismisinsidious ( The socialist income tax system turns US citizens into beggars or quitters!)
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To: Lazamataz

Yes, Zero is watching events in Honduras closely.


50 posted on 07/15/2009 2:07:54 PM PDT by dervish (I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself)
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