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T. Rex Teeth Take a Bite Out of Evolution
ICR ^ | July 17, 2009 | Brian Thomas, M.S.

Posted on 07/17/2009 9:28:19 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts

A set of fossilized Tyrannosaurus rex teeth was found in a rock layer that it had no business being in, according to evolutionary interpretations. Discovered in Hyogo, Japan, the teeth came from a 15-foot-tall dinosaur entombed in early Cretaceous rock, supposedly deposited 140 million years ago.

The problem is that T. rex dinosaurs of this large size are not supposed to have evolved until about 30 million years later. Thus, what is “known” about dinosaurs must undergo drastic revision.[1] Haruo Saegusa, a curator at the Museum of Nature and Human Activities, recently told JapanToday, ‘‘If the dinosaur belongs to the same era of the strata [early Cretaceous], the tyrannosaurus could have started to grow larger much earlier than previously thought.’’[2] The thought seems to be that merely adjusting evolutionary development backward will be enough to make the fossil fit the strata.

But the very concept of strata representing “eras” does not come from the strata themselves. That concept began with eighteenth-century French naturalist Georges Cuvier, and it has been in vogue ever since, despite the fact that it causes more problems for interpreting rock strata than it solves, and stands in stark contrast to scriptural history. Young-earth creation geologists have long held that most sedimentary strata—including the Cretaceous layer in which these teeth were found—resulted from waterborne deposits during Noah’s Flood that may harbor fossils from a particular local environment, but do not represent a particular “era.”

The assignment of a certain number of “millions of years” to a rock formation does not derive from the strata either. It is another assumption that is used to prescribe what constitutes “valid” interpretations.

Radioisotope dating is used to bolster the vast time spans ascribed to the geologic record. However, geologist John Woodmorappe cogently revealed that the radio dates are actually hand-picked to coincide with the dates already assigned from the geologic column diagram. ICR’s RATE research also conclusively demonstrated with independent lines of evidence that radioactive decay rates, widely used to bolster deep time, were dramatically accelerated in the past.[4]

Many other natural processes—like the recession rate of the moon, the decay of earth’s magnetic field, or the diffusion of helium from zircon crystals in granite—can be used, along with some basic assumptions, to measure the age of the earth, but these methods give maximum dates that are incompatible with evolutionary time spans.

Thus, the nineteenth-century strata/age/era correlation is in serious trouble. However, an oversized T. rex found in the “wrong age” and the “wrong time” doesn’t surprise creation scientists. If the rock that these T. rex fossil teeth was found in was indeed deposited during the year-long Noahic Flood, then it is easy to explain why a large dinosaur is found mixed in with smaller ones.

There never was an “era of smaller T-rex dinosaurs,” but there was an unimaginably massive Flood that wiped out whole environments, layering and sorting sediments and fossilizing the creatures buried therein.

References (for ref. links, go to original--GGG)

1. For recent examples of drastic evolutionary revisions, see Sherwin, F. The Devastating Issue of Dinosaur Tissue. ICR News. Posted on icr.org June 1, 2005, accessed June 25, 2009; Thomas, B. Data Derails Dinosaur Dominance Idea. ICR News. Posted on icr.org September 18, 2008, accessed June 25, 2009; Thomas, B. Dinosaur Fossil Erases 40 Million Years. ICR News. Posted on icr.org June 23, 2008, accessed June 25, 2009. 2. Teeth of tyrannosaurus ancestor dating back 140 mil years found in Hyogo. JapanToday. Posted on japantoday.com June 20, 2009, accessed June 24, 2009. 3. Woodmorappe, J. 1999. The Mythology of Modern Dating Methods. El Cajon, CA: Institute for Creation Research, 27-49. 4. Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth (RATE). Posted on icr.org.

* Mr. Thomas is Science Writer at the Institute for Creation Research.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Japan; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: belongsinreligion; catholic; christian; creation; evolution; godsgravesglyphs; intelligentdesign; science
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Also...

For more Creationists Answers to the DINO question, see the following links (to include a discussion of Dinos with blood vessels, blood, and various other soft tissue still intact!):

http://creation.com/dinosaur-questions-and-answers

1 posted on 07/17/2009 9:28:20 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: allmendream; editor-surveyor; metmom; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; GourmetDan; MrB; valkyry1; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 07/17/2009 9:29:09 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

i hope we get the name calling done with quickly on this thread so I can continue to hear some intelligent discussion of this interesting issue...great post


3 posted on 07/17/2009 9:30:50 AM PDT by ConservativeDude
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To: GodGunsGuts
Photobucket
4 posted on 07/17/2009 9:31:02 AM PDT by Kozak (USA 7/4/1776 to 1/20/2009 Reqiescat in Pace)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Here we go...


5 posted on 07/17/2009 9:33:02 AM PDT by lp boonie (Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment)
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To: ConservativeDude

That didn’t take long. Twelve seconds.


6 posted on 07/17/2009 9:34:07 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Put your flame retardant pants on, cause the evos are ready to pounce... :)


7 posted on 07/17/2009 9:34:22 AM PDT by 05 Mustang GT Rocks
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To: GodGunsGuts

Shows how some scientists make important conclusions based on a very small bit of data. Then when some data comes along that doesn’t fit in with their conclusions, they panic or dismiss the data.


8 posted on 07/17/2009 9:34:26 AM PDT by Leftism is Mentally Deranged
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To: Kozak

It wouldn’t occur to you to actually contest the article and disprove it, now would it?

Or are spitwads just that much easier?


9 posted on 07/17/2009 9:35:06 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: ConservativeDude

So we learn something new about dinosaurs. That’s what science is all about, learning.


10 posted on 07/17/2009 9:35:28 AM PDT by DManA
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To: GodGunsGuts
* Mr. Thomas is Science Writer at the Institute for Creation Research.

Isn't that like being Al Qaida's bikini inspector?

11 posted on 07/17/2009 9:37:38 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (In Soviet Russia, Sarah Palin's house can see YOU)
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To: GodGunsGuts

I remember once talking to an evolutionist and asked, “what sort of evidence, if any, would make you doubt your assumptions?”

(note that the evolutionist was caught in a trap: if they answered “nothing” then they can’t say that their beliefs are held onto b/c of evidence....but out of a mere faith which is not open to evidentiary critique)

the evolutionist offered this: finding a T Rex bone in a layer or otherwise showing that it dropped to the ground only recently. I then asked, ok, what if it is in the “wrong” layer going the other direction, ie, it is in a layer of strata which actually precedes the T Rex? They said, of course, same issue. If the T Rex is ever in the wrong strata, whether too old or too young, then that would be a knockdown against the whole dating system.

so here we are.

i dont however intend to fwd this story to the evolutionist as i know that they are really not going to consider this evidence...which brings us back to the point: no amount of evidence will ever cause evolutionists to doubt for one second the rectitude of their position. But that’s the very definition of ideology.


12 posted on 07/17/2009 9:38:41 AM PDT by ConservativeDude
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To: metmom

Have you noticed that most of the time the evos can’t contest with facts. For example, I still haven’t seen an inteligent evo answer to the irreducibly complex systems, that’s why they resort to name calling and drive by posts.


13 posted on 07/17/2009 9:39:11 AM PDT by 05 Mustang GT Rocks
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To: 05 Mustang GT Rocks

re: complexity, I saw Richard Dawkins on British tv saw that evolution is sooooooo awesome, because it gives “the illusion of design”.

How’s that for brilliant, deep, philosophical and unbiased hard-headed thinking?

The announcer didn’t think to ask him,”how do you know it’s an illusion?”.


14 posted on 07/17/2009 9:42:19 AM PDT by ConservativeDude
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To: GodGunsGuts

Who says they are T. Rex teeth anyway? That sounds like the very first unsubstantiated assumption in an article that piles them on one on top of another, until it becomes a pile of pishtosh.


15 posted on 07/17/2009 9:42:37 AM PDT by John Valentine
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To: GodGunsGuts

“For more Creationists Answers to the DINO question, see the following links (to include a discussion of Dinos with blood vessels, blood, and various other soft tissue still intact!): “

You “Creation Science” and prevaricationists continue to Misrepresent the facts in this dino soft tissue story. I’m predicting you are lying about this one too before I read the story. If I’m wrong, I’ll apologize profusely...

Now to read Mr. Brian Thomas, M.S.’s B.S.


16 posted on 07/17/2009 9:42:56 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: GodGunsGuts
It is indeed very easy to explain, but the science of erosion an redeposition is far beyond your mental capabilities.

I have a 250 MYo favosite coral that was fully embedded in 650 MYo limestone.

But we'll never let the facts mess up a good fairy story...

17 posted on 07/17/2009 9:43:16 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: ConservativeDude

OOPS!


18 posted on 07/17/2009 9:43:35 AM PDT by Marty62
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To: RFEngineer

M.B.S. Of “BS” to be exact..


19 posted on 07/17/2009 9:44:33 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Yeah, I know. The earth is only 6000 years old and was created in 6 days.


20 posted on 07/17/2009 9:46:15 AM PDT by Signalman
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To: John Valentine

I think the story quotes “Haruo Saegusa, a curator at the Museum of Nature and Human Activities.” Maybe Haruo is wrong and it isn’t a T Rex tooth. But I think quoting an evolutionist and their conclusions is fair game. Haruo think its T Rex.


21 posted on 07/17/2009 9:46:24 AM PDT by ConservativeDude
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To: GodGunsGuts

oops


22 posted on 07/17/2009 9:47:14 AM PDT by woollyone (I believe God created me- you believe you're related to monkeys. Of course I laughed at you!)
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To: GodGunsGuts

The world is loaded with experts that know almost everything.

The problem is that inconvenient evidence constantly surfaces proving most of what they know is wrong.


23 posted on 07/17/2009 9:48:30 AM PDT by Iron Munro (If you cannot be a good example you can serve as horrible warning - like Obama.)
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To: John Valentine
Who says they are T. Rex teeth anyway? That sounds like the very first unsubstantiated assumption in an article that piles them on one on top of another, until it becomes a pile of pishtosh.

From the article: "the teeth came from a 15-foot-tall dinosaur entombed in early Cretaceous rock, supposedly deposited 140 million years ago."

24 posted on 07/17/2009 9:48:32 AM PDT by IYAS9YAS
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To: GodGunsGuts

“If the rock that these T. rex fossil teeth was found in was indeed deposited during the year-long Noahic Flood, then it is easy to explain why a large dinosaur is found mixed in with smaller ones.”

Boy, you gotta love these hard-hitting scientific conclusions.

So on that apology.... he did say “if”, so it’s not an outright lie, but it is such an outrageous leap, and failure to utilize God-given faculties (assuming he has any) that I think you owe ME the apology.


25 posted on 07/17/2009 9:51:27 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: metmom
As "reported" in the Creationist "journal".

A set of fossilized Tyrannosaurus rex teeth was found in a rock layer that it had no business being in

The ACTUAL headline of the article in Japan Today

Teeth of tyrannosaurus ancestor dating back 140 mil years found in Hyogo
26 posted on 07/17/2009 9:54:14 AM PDT by Kozak (USA 7/4/1776 to 1/20/2009 Reqiescat in Pace)
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To: ConservativeDude
> hear some intelligent discussion of this interesting issue...

------------------------------------------------------------------

Carnivorous dinosaur's teeth discovered

Published: June 21, 2009 at 12:51 PM


Museum officials in Japan say fossilized teeth from an ancestor of the tyrannosaurus have been found in the Hyogo Prefecture.

Museum of Nature and Human Activities officials said the teeth found in Tamba were inside strata thought to be up to 140 million years old, Kyodo reported Sunday.

Curator Haruo Saegusa said the fossils indicate the carnivorous dinosaur they came from was likely nearly 16.5 feet long.

Saegusa added if the fossils' age was similar to that of the strata it was discovered in, the finding would represent an early ancestor of the tyrannosaurus, the Japanese news agency said.

"If the dinosaur belongs to the same era as the strata, the tyrannosaurus could have started to grow larger much earlier than thought," Saegusa said.

Kyodo reported the tens of millions of years thought to separate the fossilized dinosaur from the later tyrannosaurus age may indicate the earlier dinosaur may have been evolving.

27 posted on 07/17/2009 9:55:55 AM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: ConservativeDude

Exactly. Atheism and evolution are belief systems, essentially, and stem from more from psychology than science.

One thing I saw in Australia put evolution in doubt for me: The redback spider.

It’s nearly identical to the Black Widow spider, except instead of a red hourglass on the belly, there’s an almost perfect red square.

My bias is that I was raised a Christian, and I have zero scientific basis for declaring evolution as a theory is not valid, but I asked myself what the chances of this evolving by accident.

Why an hourglass, and why on another continent, a square?

I believe the world was created by God, which is to say I take it on faith, but have selected empirical evidence which tends to reinforce that belief. I would suspect the same is true for evolutionists.

The thing is, that as time goes by, science seems to support the idea of the existence of God, and tends to erode the theory that it was an accident. It’s just my observation.


28 posted on 07/17/2009 9:58:15 AM PDT by RinaseaofDs
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To: GodGunsGuts
Looks like the Creationist Ministry of Propaganda is ahead of the researchers on this one. The researchers have already said this is not a T-Rex and that they have work to do yet to determine the exact age of the teeth.

Here's a link to another article, since the Ministry waited until the article they referenced expired before publishing their "news."

29 posted on 07/17/2009 10:02:20 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: GodGunsGuts
The acknowledgment of the existence of now extinct species certainly presents a major conundrum to opponents of evolution since extinction is part of the evolutionary process.
30 posted on 07/17/2009 10:02:26 AM PDT by Natural Law
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To: theFIRMbss

So the consensus seems to be that this is not specifically T-Rex but likely an ancestor of T-Rex, and that this shows that larger dinosaurs may have developed much earlier than previously thought.

Makes sense to me. Real scientific knowledge has the ability to adjust to change when new evidence is found. Too bad Algore can’t figure this out.


31 posted on 07/17/2009 10:05:10 AM PDT by Signalman
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To: xcamel; GodGunsGuts
I have a 250 MYo favosite coral that was fully embedded in 650 MYo limestone. But we'll never let the facts mess up a good fairy story...

Obviously.

32 posted on 07/17/2009 10:06:09 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Natural Law

It presents no conundrum. Science has no 100% reliable way of telling the age of fossils. To say otherwise is beyond risible at this point.


33 posted on 07/17/2009 10:10:06 AM PDT by kingpins10
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To: ConservativeDude
I think the story quotes “Haruo Saegusa, a curator at the Museum of Nature and Human Activities.” Maybe Haruo is wrong and it isn’t a T Rex tooth. But I think quoting an evolutionist and their conclusions is fair game. Haruo think its T Rex.

No, no, no. Don't you see?

If it does harm to the ToE, it can't be *real* evidence, or a *real* evolutionist.

Nope. We just have to take the amazing, elastic ToE and stretch and twist it to accommodate the evidence that someone claims would disprove then ToE if it were found.

There will never be found ANY evidence found to disprove the ToE because evos won't allow it. Either it will be explained away, disallowed, or just plain disposed of.

34 posted on 07/17/2009 10:11:05 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: GodGunsGuts
Why am I not surprised that Brian Thomas M.S.* is, like every other creationist, conveniently ignoring the truth of this story?

From UPI Science News

http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2009/06/21/Carnivorous-dinosaurs-teeth-discovered/UPI-32481245603064/

Museum officials in Japan say fossilized teeth from an ancestor of the tyrannosaurus have been found in the Hyogo Prefecture.

Museum of Nature and Human Activities officials said the teeth found in Tamba were inside strata thought to be up to 140 million years old, Kyodo reported Sunday.

Curator Haruo Saegusa said the fossils indicate the carnivorous dinosaur they came from was likely nearly 16.5 feet long.

Saegusa added if the fossils' age was similar to that of the strata it was discovered in, the finding would represent an early ancestor of the tyrannosaurus, the Japanese news agency said.

"If the dinosaur belongs to the same era as the strata, the tyrannosaurus could have started to grow larger much earlier than thought," Saegusa said.

Kyodo reported the tens of millions of years thought to separate the fossilized dinosaur from the later tyrannosaurus age may indicate the earlier dinosaur may have been evolving.

Isn't lying a sin? Or is it OK when you're doing the Lord's work?

35 posted on 07/17/2009 10:11:33 AM PDT by stormer
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To: theFIRMbss

GMTA


36 posted on 07/17/2009 10:12:49 AM PDT by stormer
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To: <1/1,000,000th%
Looks like the Creationist Ministry of Propaganda is ahead of the researchers on this one. The researchers have already said this is not a T-Rex and that they have work to do yet to determine the exact age of the teeth.

Don't tell me that GGG is promoting ignorance again.

37 posted on 07/17/2009 10:13:42 AM PDT by Moonman62 (The issue of whether cheap labor makes America great should have been settled by the Civil War.)
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To: Natural Law
The acknowledgment of the existence of now extinct species certainly presents a major conundrum to opponents of evolution since extinction is part of the evolutionary process.

GGG is doing far more damage to religion than he is to science.

38 posted on 07/17/2009 10:16:04 AM PDT by Moonman62 (The issue of whether cheap labor makes America great should have been settled by the Civil War.)
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To: stormer

Aparently to the creationist, lying is one of the 10 commandments.


39 posted on 07/17/2009 10:17:24 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: stormer
>Saegusa added if the fossils' age was similar to that of the strata it was discovered in


I thought it was cool
the real scientist started
by pointing out that

they'd first establish
that the teeth match the strata.
Smart people are ... smart.

40 posted on 07/17/2009 10:18:16 AM PDT by theFIRMbss
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To: kingpins10

And your advanced degree in fossil dating is exactly what?

Land of the lost?


41 posted on 07/17/2009 10:19:21 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: Moonman62

How so? Are you willing to bet your soul on radiometric dating?


42 posted on 07/17/2009 10:19:28 AM PDT by kingpins10
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To: Moonman62

‘zactly.


43 posted on 07/17/2009 10:19:56 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: xcamel

It must be, cause they sure do it all the time.


44 posted on 07/17/2009 10:20:02 AM PDT by stormer
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To: kingpins10

Great another you are going to hell for science post.

That didn’t take long.


45 posted on 07/17/2009 10:20:24 AM PDT by DevNet (What's past is prologue)
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To: Bobkk47
Yeah, I know. The earth is only 6000 years old and was created in 6 days.

God doesn't wear a Timex.

46 posted on 07/17/2009 10:20:40 AM PDT by Catholic Canadian ( I love Stephen Harper!)
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To: Leftism is Mentally Deranged
Shows how some scientists make important conclusions based on a very small bit of data. Then when some data comes along that doesn’t fit in with their conclusions, they panic or dismiss the data.

You're referring to the creation "scientists," right? The ones who dismiss all geological and paleontological data developed since the 18th century? Because the scientists in the article cited are neither panicking nor dismissing anything.

Hmm, the original article cited by the ICR hac writer has expired, and every other footnote in the article goes to another ICR article. Interesting. Almost as if the publishing of the ICR article was timed to take place after the source material was no longer accessible.

Fortunately, we have Google. Here is a copy of the article on Breitbart, and here is an illuminating quote:

The dinosaur, whose teeth were exhumed from strata dating back 140 million to 136 million years ago in the city, is estimated to have been about 5 meters long, said the Museum of Nature and Human Activities, Hyogo. The size is much larger than other 1- to 3-meter-long dinosaurs found in similarly old stratum at home and abroad, the museum said. Since the era of the strata is tens of millions of years earlier than the age of the over 10-meter-long tyrannosaurus, the creature was in the course of evolution to tyrannosaurus, it added. Haruo Saegusa, a curator at the museum, said, "If the dinosaur belongs to the same era of the strata, the tyrannosaurus could have started to grow larger much earlier than previously thought."

It appears that Brian Thomas failed to understand what he was writing about, or perhaps is knowingly promulgating a misunderstanding. The fossils found do not belong to T. rex, and do not force T. rex to be "adjusted." Instead, they are an ancestor of T. rex. All they demonstrate is that T. rex's ancestors had reached a certain size earlier than previously believed. This is a new data point, but not a challenge to the model. (We're still waiting for the T. rex with a bunny rabbit in its stomach.)

With his misunderstanding of the fossils corrected, we see there really is no reason to challenge the prevailing wisdom regarding the geologic column. That's just as well, because Thomas also cites RATE's disastrous web of assumptions and impossibilities, and picking that apart strand by strand would take some time.

47 posted on 07/17/2009 10:21:30 AM PDT by Caesar Soze
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To: Catholic Canadian

His is the Rolex “Cosmo 1”

:-)


48 posted on 07/17/2009 10:21:34 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: Caesar Soze

But as long as these ICR psudoscientists keep barfing up fantastic hairballs of ignorance, there will allways be cannon fodder for FR.


49 posted on 07/17/2009 10:24:33 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: DevNet

Not my point at all. I just question carbon dating and radiometric dating.

When science tells me a rock that is known to be 200 years old from a volcanic eruption is 4.5 million years old according to radiometric dating, I have a problem with that. No one can seem to explain this fact.

Not to mention when a president tells me a stimulus package will limit unemployment...


50 posted on 07/17/2009 10:25:26 AM PDT by kingpins10
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