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Shooting Down The Raptor
IBD Editorials ^ | July 21, 2009 | INVESTORS BUSINESS DAILY Staff

Posted on 07/21/2009 5:36:56 PM PDT by Kaslin

Defense Spending: The TARP bailout may hit $24 trillion, but the Senate says the F-22 is too expensive to build and maintain. So why are the Japanese so desperate to buy this "unnecessary" Cold War weapon?


By a vote of 58-40, the Senate on Tuesday voted to remove $1.75 billion set aside in a defense bill to build seven more F-22 Raptors, adding to the 187 stealth technology fighters already in the pipeline.

After some hope the production lines would be kept open, the Senate succumbed to arguments by the administration and others that the fighter was too expensive, too hard to maintain and not built for the wars America is fighting these days.

President Obama welcomed the Senate vote, saying he rejected the notion that the country has to "waste billions of taxpayers dollars" on outdated defense projects.

Well, the inspector general in charge of overseeing the Treasury Department's bank-bailout program now says the massive endeavor could end up costing taxpayers almost $24 trillion in a worst-case scenario. Yet we can't afford to build just seven more F-22s?

Keeping the F-22 production lines open would be a real stimulus saving real jobs. Lockheed Martin, the main contractor, says 25,000 people are directly employed in building the plane, and another 70,000 have indirect links, particularly in Georgia, Texas and California. Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn., a supporter of the program, says there are 1,000 suppliers in 44 states. That's wasteful?

(Excerpt) Read more at ibdeditorials.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; Japan; News/Current Events; Russia; US: California; US: Georgia; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: 111th; aerospace; af22; airdefense; airdominance; airforce; airsuperiority; bho44; bhodefense; china; defense; defensebudget; defenseless; defensespending; desertstorm; disarmament; f111a; f15; f22; f22raptor; f35; f4; fighter; ibd; ibs; iran; iraq; japan; jobs; jsf; lockheed; lockheedmartin; mcpeak; military; militaryaviation; nationaldefense; nationalsecurity; nkorea; northkorea; obama; raptor; raptor22; raptoribd; russia; s300; s400; savetheraptor; saxbychambliss; stealth; taiwan; tarp; usaf; weapons

1 posted on 07/21/2009 5:36:56 PM PDT by Kaslin
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Please freep-mail me if you want to be on my IBD Editorial ping list


2 posted on 07/21/2009 5:37:43 PM PDT by Kaslin (Acronym for 0bama: One Big Ass Mistake America)
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To: Jet Jaguar

Ping.


3 posted on 07/21/2009 5:37:53 PM PDT by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: Kaslin

Remember who voted this down!


4 posted on 07/21/2009 5:38:19 PM PDT by ronnie raygun (Reagan dead is doing more for America than zero alive)
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To: bareford101; BerniesFriend; blaveda; Bookwoman; FrdmLvr; GOP_Lady; HoosierHawk; JDoutrider; KoRn; ..

5 posted on 07/21/2009 5:38:50 PM PDT by Kaslin (Acronym for 0bama: One Big Ass Mistake America)
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To: Kaslin

I wonder how many of those unionized workers at L/M voted for “0”?


6 posted on 07/21/2009 5:38:57 PM PDT by reg45 (Be calm everyone. The idiot children are in charge!)
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To: Kaslin

This is really simple, the F-22 is a first strike weapon. Muslims get scared of this, especially Iranians and othe nuclear aspirants.

ZERO said her would defang America.


7 posted on 07/21/2009 5:39:45 PM PDT by Tarpon
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To: Kaslin
Why don't they call IBD, stuff bloggs, since that is what they really are.

What wrong with the Japanese throwing their money away, good for them. Has nothing to do with the united states not buying the over priced garbage.

8 posted on 07/21/2009 5:42:50 PM PDT by org.whodat (Vote: Chuck De Vore in 2012.)
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To: ronnie raygun

Everyone should remember


9 posted on 07/21/2009 5:43:02 PM PDT by Kaslin (Acronym for 0bama: One Big Ass Mistake America)
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To: Kaslin
Republicans voting against the Raptor:

10 posted on 07/21/2009 5:43:26 PM PDT by thefrankbaum (Ad maiorem Dei gloriam)
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To: org.whodat
Why don't they call IBD, stuff bloggs, since that is what they really are.
11 posted on 07/21/2009 5:45:48 PM PDT by Kaslin (Acronym for 0bama: One Big Ass Mistake America)
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To: Tarpon
This is really simple, the F-22 is a first strike weapon

HS. Trident missiles are our first strike weapons. Part of the reason why the guys who push these systems lack credibility is that they try to justify them with nonexistent missions like the argument that we need them for nuclear strike.

The Cold War is so over and no serious defense analyst argues that we don't have far more nukes than we need.

12 posted on 07/21/2009 5:51:36 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: Kaslin
The TARP bailout may hit $24 trillion, but the Senate says the F-22 is too expensive to build and maintain. So why are the Japanese so desperate to buy this "unnecessary" Cold War weapon?

Not just the Japanese, the Australians too. And the Indians are looking to drop 12 billion dollars on new fighters, I'd guess they'd be interested. Why is the US so determined not to sell these? They're older technology, aren't they?
13 posted on 07/21/2009 5:53:26 PM PDT by AnotherUnixGeek
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To: AndyJackson

The reasons in the childish so-called editorial, you are pissing away billions on Tarp, whine, cry, burp, why want you piss away a few more million on a plane that has no useful purpose and costs millions in upkeep. Damn that is really clear thinking.


14 posted on 07/21/2009 5:56:06 PM PDT by org.whodat (Vote: Chuck De Vore in 2012.)
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To: thefrankbaum

Yeah, my senator is one of them. I will definitely remember when he runs for reelection


15 posted on 07/21/2009 5:59:00 PM PDT by Kaslin (Acronym for 0bama: One Big Ass Mistake America)
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To: thefrankbaum

Yes, but there were legitimate arguments to shut it down. If nothing more, the savings can go to the unexpected maintenance costs.

I disagree however, with the argument stating that it meeds to be cut because it hasn’t even been used in IZ or AF. That is intellectual dishonesty.

Why in the heck would you wheel out this technology for your enem(ies) to study, in a fight where the technology is irrelevent?

If you need to check the performance of the F-22, go out to the Mojave desert.

Or practice on Venezuela. Something.


16 posted on 07/21/2009 6:00:16 PM PDT by Salvavida (Restoring the U.S.A. starts with filling the empty pew at a local Bible-believing church.)
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To: Kaslin; All

Now how much money was given to Acorn again? $6-8 billion if I remember correctly.

China, Russia, Venezuala, NoKo, Iran all still exist & are gunning for us.

I guess people forget what deterrent means.

tahDeetz


17 posted on 07/21/2009 6:07:10 PM PDT by ebiskit (South Park Republican ( I see Red People ))
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To: Salvavida
And so our Senators piss away 90,000 jobs and slash the business for 1000 subcontractors. The whole thing stinks, but the Russians and Chinese are cheering - they will be exporting their latest air superiority fighters to all comers - the F15 boys will have to stay in their hangers, our ground troops stay home, and the Navy in port.

Gates et al seem to think that if we need an air superiority fighter next time we have a war, they'll just order one up. The F35 certainly will not do the job, if it ever gets off the groound and goes into production.

So begins the first stage of the Obama/Gates unilteral disarmament program.

18 posted on 07/21/2009 6:13:14 PM PDT by PIF
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To: ebiskit

The F-22 is waste of resources on many levels.

It’s 6X as expensive as Russian/Chinese 4.5 Gen Fighters.

It requires 70 HOURS of maintenance for every 1 hour of flight. Russian/Chinese fighters require 10 hrs for 1 hour of flight.

SU-35s/J-11Bs are already coming off the production line with reduced RCS, AESA radars, and updated Infrared and Visual range missile targeting systems.

We simply cannot win the attrition game with such a platform. It would be a better allocation of resources to build effective delivery systems which would destroy enemy air bases and complement that effort with updating the entire fighter fleet to 4.5 Gen technology. And money left over really should be plowed into unmanned, autonomous fighter development.


19 posted on 07/21/2009 6:17:01 PM PDT by artaxerces
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To: reg45

Hopefully all those union stooges at defense contractors lose their jobs. I knew someone who worked at one of them and they found out they were not a Dem. They pushed them out in less than a month.


20 posted on 07/21/2009 6:21:37 PM PDT by Frantzie (Remember when Bush was President and Americans had jobs (and ammo)?)
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To: org.whodat

Third eworld countries that are bankrupt now do not need advanced fighters or a space program. Shut down NASA and fire more union stooges and govt make work jobs.


21 posted on 07/21/2009 6:23:01 PM PDT by Frantzie (Remember when Bush was President and Americans had jobs (and ammo)?)
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To: AndyJackson
HS. Trident missiles are our first strike weapons. Part of the reason why the guys who push these systems lack credibility is that they try to justify them with nonexistent missions like the argument that we need them for nuclear strike.

"First Strike" is not a phrase applied only to nuclear warfare. The F-22 is, after all, a combination of the roles of the F-15 and the F-117 Stealth Fighter. The latter was most assuredly a first-strike weapon and was used as such in the Persian Gulf War and later - air superiority missions are by no means a thing of the past. Nobody is losing credibility over claims that the F-22 is the tip of the airpower spear.

Or maybe I just missed CNN's report on our Tridents taking out the Iraqi army on 16 January 1991.

22 posted on 07/21/2009 6:23:29 PM PDT by Charles Martel ("Endeavor to persevere...")
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To: Kaslin

Not sure...but I think that I agree with the cut. I would rather see the money spent on the strike fighter. I know this will (may) rile some, but I see both as useful, but the strike fighter more promising and needed immediately. The F22 may be a requirement in a few years...


23 posted on 07/21/2009 6:45:03 PM PDT by Deagle
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To: AdmSmith; Berosus; bigheadfred; Convert from ECUSA; dervish; Ernest_at_the_Beach; Fred Nerks; ...
Image and video hosting by TinyPic "The plane is too good! It's an air superiority weapon. Wouldn't be fair to (ahem) other countries. Die Infidels!"

24 posted on 07/21/2009 7:10:08 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/__Since Jan 3, 2004__Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
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To: Charles Martel
Or maybe I just missed CNN's report on our Tridents taking out the Iraqi army on 16 January 1991.

And that line proved the other posters point. ROFLOL

25 posted on 07/21/2009 7:22:02 PM PDT by org.whodat (Vote: Chuck De Vore in 2012.)
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To: Salvavida
If you need to check the performance of the F-22, go out to the Mojave desert.

You may be correct, that is pretty close to where the last one crashed.

26 posted on 07/21/2009 7:23:25 PM PDT by org.whodat (Vote: Chuck De Vore in 2012.)
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To: artaxerces
We simply cannot win the attrition game with such a platform. It would be a better allocation of resources to build effective delivery systems which would destroy enemy air bases and complement that effort with updating the entire fighter fleet to 4.5 Gen technology. And money left over really should be plowed into unmanned, autonomous fighter development.

Take the computing technology of the smallest cell phone, put it in a fast small missile and a plane like the f 22 cannot live on the battle field. Heat seeking missiles are a thing of the past. The new ones knows what your plane looks like and it coming after you.

27 posted on 07/21/2009 7:29:31 PM PDT by org.whodat (Vote: Chuck De Vore in 2012.)
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To: Kaslin

Here’s a newsflash for some of you:

When an air war is fought, the side flying 40 year-old designs is in trouble.

The F-15 is a 40 year old design. (”An industry-wide competition ended on December 23, 1969 when McDonnell Douglas was awarded the contract for the F-15.” - GlobalSecurity.org)

Yeah, improvements have been made, but it is still a 40 year-old design.

The F-16? 35 years old. (”On 13 January 1975 the Air Force announced that the YF-16’s performance had made it the winner of its Air Combat Fighter (ACF) competition. “ - GlobalSecurity.org)

The F-18? 34 years old (”The resulting redesign was extensive and, when the McDonnell Douglas design was selected as winner in 1976, it was assigned the F-18A designation.” - GlobalSecurity.org)

Yeah, the F-22 is expensive. It outclasses everything else in the sky.

But, do you know what is even more expensive? Losing a war.

Russia, China and India have the manpower/expertise and/or experience to build an Air Force capable of stalemating or defeating the US, IF we don’t keep pushing the envelope.

These crummy little shooting matches in Iraq and Afghanistan (no disrepect intended here) will pale in comparison to an all-out shooting war with China or Russia.

That will never happen, right? 20 more years of liberal leadership will result in the US retiring it’s nuclear arsenal, or diminishing it to the point that conventional war becomes viable.

Some of you people need to wake up. Never fight a war from a position of weakness. EVER.


28 posted on 07/21/2009 7:58:13 PM PDT by Bryan24 (When in doubt, move to the right..........)
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To: Bryan24
But, do you know what is even more expensive? Losing a war.

But I thought that under Barry the Magnificent that all world leaders would be forever sitting around the campfire sharing a beer and singing kumbaya with no need for war? (sarc/)


29 posted on 07/21/2009 8:05:09 PM PDT by Niteflyr ("Just because something is free doesn't mean it's good for you".)
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To: artaxerces

Just a few years ago the B-1 bomber was taking huge criticism for only being able to deliver 51 percent MC rate. The fact of the matter was that the pauper USAF was only funding 49 percent of the aircraft systems required maintenance plan to keep it healthy. Dedicated maintenance personnel squeezed out an additional 2 percent through just plain hard work.

Looking at recent history of the F-22 shows a different story than that painted by the Post. Around the 2005-6, the F-22 upgrade schedule was on track. This effort was thrown into disarray when the needs of the Afghanistan and Iraq war—at over $10-13 billion per month— pulled scheduled funds from the F-22 program.

The F-22 reached initial operating capability (IOC) in 2005. In the years 2006-2008, maintenance metrics from real live USAF squadrons came in. This is where real life at the squadron level validates (or disproves) the optimistic planning from previous years of aircraft development. What was shown is that the aircraft was spending a lot of time at the unit level in the low observable (L.O.) maintenance hanger. Consider that the aircraft was designed to be maintenance friendly where only 5 percent of maintenance actions required refurbishment of the low observable components on the F-22. In the end it wasn’t any kind of disaster but a learning curve. It took a while for airmen and NCO’s —the enlisted maintenance force that makes or breaks a flying unit—to get maintenance experience on this new kind of aircraft That process includes everything from training, keeping methods that work, throwing out ones that don’t and filtering all of that into a reliable form of tribal knowledge.

Fast forward to where in one deployment, an F-22 unit put up all of their scheduled missions (350 sorties) for a stunning 100 percent MC rate. This means that the F-22 community has risen to the challenge and put up MC rates that match or exceed current “legacy” aircraft in deployments. Of course none of this was mentioned in the Washington Post article.

More? Maintenance Supers (the lead maintenance NCO in a unit) will tell you a lot of things that are hassle-free with the jet. For example the Pratt and Whitney F-119 motors don’t require a lot of extra work. Still More? The F-22 community has won sustainment awards for its maintenance processes. Of interest is that the methods of logistics and sustainment used in the program are a baseline for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. While the F-35 has a long way to go to prove itself, it is designed so that only 1-2 percent of maintenance processes require L.O. refurbishment. No matter. When the F-22 is out of production, guess what the yellow journalism crowd will pick on next?

http://www.f-16.net/news_article3621.html


30 posted on 07/21/2009 9:26:42 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar
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To: artaxerces; All

As opposed 2 giving Acorn 5 times that much money?

Whats a billion or 2 here or there when your mortgaging trillions...eh?

The F22 & F35 are designed for different roles & are not interchangeable.

To win any conflict outright, air supremacy must be achieved. That is the F22 role, bottom line.

I’ve heard otherwise in re maintenance.

Do u really think a gaggle of Lib/Dems are gonna plow that money back into the military budget?

Hell no!!

Its gonna be used to buy more Dem votes, simple as that.

tahDeetz


31 posted on 07/21/2009 10:12:39 PM PDT by ebiskit (South Park Republican ( I see Red People ))
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To: AnotherUnixGeek
Not just the Japanese, the Australians too. And the Indians are looking to drop 12 billion dollars on new fighters, I'd guess they'd be interested. Why is the US so determined not to sell these? They're older technology, aren't they?

To the contrary they are so much of an advancement over even our own current fighter inventory, that it's almost scary. I've read reports of training exercises where one or two F22's routinely face off against current US fighters (F15's, F16's or F18's) and achieve 100% kill rates against odds of 8 to 1 and more. You can't fight what you can't see.

The reason that we don't want to sell these to other countries is the danger of one of them falling into the wrong hands. If China or Russia got their hands on planes like these, we would be in big trouble if we were to ever go to war with them.

32 posted on 07/21/2009 11:55:25 PM PDT by Sparticus (Libs, they're so open minded that their brains leaked out.)
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To: Kaslin; Arthur Wildfire! March
"President Obama welcomed the Senate vote, saying he rejected the notion that the country has to "waste billions of taxpayers dollars""

ROTFL

33 posted on 07/21/2009 11:56:49 PM PDT by Impy (RED=COMMUNIST, NOT REPUBLICAN)
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To: Jet Jaguar
Remember the visit to Russia a couple weeks back, JJ?M

Nothing surprises me lately.

(And look for a rip off.)
34 posted on 07/22/2009 12:01:06 AM PDT by BIGLOOK (Government needs a Keelhauling now and then.)
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To: BIGLOOK

I hope it didn’t happen.

Nothing surprises me anymore.


35 posted on 07/22/2009 12:03:52 AM PDT by Jet Jaguar
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To: Tarpon
They would get real scared of this plane... ...because it would kill their MiGs and Sukhois in A2A combat like child's play, and bomb their nuke and missile facilities by surprise.
36 posted on 07/22/2009 12:05:06 AM PDT by myknowledge (F-22 Raptor: World's Largest Distributor of Sukhoi parts!)
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To: thefrankbaum

RINOs.


37 posted on 07/22/2009 12:05:39 AM PDT by myknowledge (F-22 Raptor: World's Largest Distributor of Sukhoi parts!)
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To: Jet Jaguar
Keeping the F-22 production lines open would be a real stimulus saving real jobs. Lockheed Martin, the main contractor, says 25,000 people are directly employed in building the plane, and another 70,000 have indirect links, particularly in Georgia, Texas and California. Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn., a supporter of the program, says there are 1,000 suppliers in 44 states. That's wasteful?

Obama lost Georgia by 5.2% to McCain. He lost Texas by 11.7%. Need I say more?

The people working on building these planes are proud, patriotic Americans - just the kind of people who the Obamas most despise. What do they care that such people will lose their jobs?

38 posted on 07/22/2009 12:45:07 AM PDT by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: Kaslin

Apparently we have not developed the aerial technology to defeat the F-LP...(Liberal Politician)


39 posted on 07/22/2009 5:53:44 AM PDT by stevie_d_64
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To: AndyJackson

nukes, not for low intensity wars ... Like taking out Irans nukes.


40 posted on 07/22/2009 6:10:33 AM PDT by Tarpon
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To: AnotherUnixGeek

Russia wins with better fighters to sell and we lose. Why is this a surprise from the fraud occupying the oval office.


41 posted on 07/22/2009 6:22:16 AM PDT by EDINVA (A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul -- G. B. Shaw)
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To: org.whodat; Kaslin
Why don't they call IBD, stuff bloggs, since that is what they really are. What wrong with the Japanese throwing their money away, good for them.

What's wrong with using punctuation and syntax in a meaningful way?

42 posted on 07/22/2009 8:57:36 AM PDT by sam_paine (X .................................)
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To: artaxerces

It’s not an attrition game with the F-22. I have spoken to F-15 pilots who have taken them on in exercises. The score generally runs: Raptor kills everything flying and the F-15 never sees them coming. That’s not attrition, that’s total air superiority.


43 posted on 07/22/2009 8:59:56 AM PDT by saganite (What would Sully do?)
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To: org.whodat
You may be correct, that is pretty close to where the last one crashed.

Is that anywhere near where the F-15E crashed this month? Or the F-15D that crashed last year? Or the two F-15C's that crashed in 2007? Or the F-15K that crashed in 2006?

44 posted on 07/22/2009 11:26:18 AM PDT by OA5599
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To: Jet Jaguar

Good post, thanks!


45 posted on 07/22/2009 1:18:59 PM PDT by hattend (Sarah Palin has run a fishing business, a city, and a state. All Obama has done is run his mouth.)
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To: sam_paine
What's wrong with using punctuation and syntax in a meaningful way?

Five more years of text messages and no one will know the meaning of your post!!

46 posted on 07/22/2009 7:47:30 PM PDT by org.whodat (Vote: Chuck De Vore in 2012.)
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To: Bryan24

Has anyone calculated how many F-22s could be bought with just 1%

(or 10%) of TARP, or Healthcare ???

Hundreds !!!

Call McCain and tell ‘em

(I’m tired of doing it - he never responded. And lost.)


47 posted on 07/23/2009 1:59:18 PM PDT by DontTreadOnMe2009 (So stop treading on me already!)
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To: artaxerces
It actually requires 30 hours of maintenance, IIRC. The Flanker family of air superiority fighters is the most advanced Eastern fighter in operational service today. Realistically, ~750 Raptors would be needed to win air superiority in three theaters of war, along with defending the CONUS. Air Power Australia has the answers.
48 posted on 08/03/2009 5:34:57 PM PDT by myknowledge (F-22 Raptor: World's Largest Distributor of Sukhoi parts!)
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