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Pentagon Burns Bibles in Afganistan despite Freedom of Religion there
PrayinJesusname.org ^ | 7/30/09 | Chaplain Gordon James Klingernchmidtt

Posted on 07/30/2009 7:17:44 AM PDT by nmh

PENTAGON BURNS OUR SOLDIERS BIBLES

BREAKING NEWS: Pentagon Burns Soldiers Bibles - Military Chaplains Attacked

BY CHAPLAIN GORDON JAMES KLINGENSCHMITT, UPDATED 5 JULY 09

A Pentagon spokesman under the Obama Administration recently acknowledged and defended seizing and burning the privately owned Bibles of American soldiers serving in Afghanistan. The Bibles had been printed in the local Pashto and Dari languages, and sent by private donors last year (under the Bush Administration) to American Christian soldiers and chaplains, for distribution to American troops on overseas military bases during optionally-attended Christian worship services. Had the Bibles not been recently seized and destroyed (as verified and defended by the Obama Administration), they could have legally been given as gifts during off-duty time to Afghani citizens who welcome our troops in their homes, as an expression of American gratitude for Afghani hospitality, promoting the democratic ideals of freedom of religion, freedom of the press, and freedom to print and distribute Christian Bibles like the new Afghani Constitution specifically allows.

But the Muslim controlled Al Jazeera television network obtained video footage of the Bibles, held by American soldiers while listening to a chaplain on the Bagram Air Base (inside the base chapel) whose sermon encouraged outreach and personal evangelism. The American values of freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of Christian speech easily offended some extremist Muslim groups, (who apparently hate their own Constitution) and angered a small group of American atheists, who demanded the chaplain be punished for "proselytizing" because he simply repeated Jesus' words to "Go and make disciples of all nations" in church. (Can you imagine their outrage if we burned the Koran, instead of the Bible?)

(Excerpt) Read more at prayinJesusname.org ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government
KEYWORDS: bibles; freedomofreligion; obama
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URGENT PETITION for our troops and chaplains. Please click, sign, WE WILL FAX your petition automatically to 435 members of Congress (saving you hours of labor!) We've already send over 100,000 faxes to Congress...can you help reach 500,000?

If Obama is a "Christian" why burn Bibles?

If Obama is a "Christian" why not allow a GIFT that is LEGAL be given to the people there?

If Obama is a "Christian" why is the U.S. burning Bible that are LEGAL in Afganistan when they have Freedom of Religion under their laws and the Constitution the U.S. helped them draw up?

Should we allow Obama and atheists over rule what is legal in Afganistan and the U.S. ?

When is enough, ENOUGH?

How much more are you willing ot put up with?

1 posted on 07/30/2009 7:17:45 AM PDT by nmh
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To: nmh

If Barry Soetoro could get away with it, he burn your Bible too.


2 posted on 07/30/2009 7:21:38 AM PDT by subterfuge (BUILD MORE NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS NOW!!!)
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To: nmh

We as a nation are dead.

We’ve allowed this creature to lead us and we will suffer the consequences for it.
His hypocracy doesn’t even matter anymore. The damage is done. Doesn’t matter if he lied and is doing what we suspected. He’s there. He’s leading us right down the toilet. Full throttle too.


3 posted on 07/30/2009 7:26:38 AM PDT by J40000
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To: nmh

A. I don’t believe this story;

B. We sent an army, not a bunch of missionaries;

C. I don’t believe this story.


4 posted on 07/30/2009 7:26:42 AM PDT by stormer
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To: nmh

Even if it were not legal to give these bibles out, there was no need to burn them. Burning them sure sends a clear message to the Afghanis and to American citizens where the heart of our so-called “Commander in Chief” lies.


5 posted on 07/30/2009 7:27:25 AM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: subterfuge

I’m too well armed for that.


6 posted on 07/30/2009 7:28:14 AM PDT by thethirddegree
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To: nmh

Obama’s election was made possible by millions of Christians or at least “Christians” who saw him as goodness and light, virtue and righteousness. Heaven help us.


7 posted on 07/30/2009 7:28:26 AM PDT by all the best
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To: MEGoody
Burning them sure sends a clear message to the Afghanis and to American citizens where the heart of our so-called “Commander in Chief” lies.

I think that was the idea.

8 posted on 07/30/2009 7:28:36 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Are there any men left in Washington? Or, are there only cowards? Ahmad Shah Massoud)
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To: nmh

“The Bibles had been printed in the local Pashto and Dari languages,...”

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe our country had an agreement not to proselytize the local people in Afghanistan while on their soil. We may not like it as Christians, but this sounds like exactley what this group was doing and hence the military probably was required to take the bibles out of circulation.


9 posted on 07/30/2009 7:28:36 AM PDT by penelopesire ("The only CHANGE you will get with the Democrats is the CHANGE left in your pocket")
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To: stormer

I am a Christian and something just does not make sense with this story. I will have to research it more. It would not surprise me, but this is from a month ago and I have not heard ANYTHING on this!


10 posted on 07/30/2009 7:31:46 AM PDT by mikelets456
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To: subterfuge

Let’s keep things in perspective here. If the Bibles were not also dual printed in English, then the decision to restrict them may have been right. The job of the military is not to do volunteer evangelization in your free time. Unless you are a Spanish Conquistador with a Friar in Tow. If the Bibles were only printed in local languages and only in the “custody” of U.S. Military personnel then they should have been recalled along with Amway Product Sample Cases and Encyclopedia Britannicas. In short, they were not Government Issue. With a major offensive underway and the need to decamp and march or relocate to the fronts...there is a practical application for this. If they are meant to evangelize and that results in a public relations setback amongst Afghan Tribal Leaders on whom we rely on for intelligence, cooperation and foraging afield then they very well may result in the loss of U.S. Military lives. However, that being said, the Bibles should never be burned and especially never be burned in country. They should have been placed in an extra crate (or one of the spare coffins that went unused because of the more helpful Afghan Tribal Leaders who did not become insulted by the prosletization), and sent back to the United States.

If the Bibles were co-printed in English and the native languages...then the soldiers must be allowed to keep them because of freedom of religion but a U.S. Military-wide directive should have been communicated that expressly forbids prosletization and the passing of Bibles to the indiginous population by military personnel with corresponding penalties for that behavior and the reasons why this is not within Military Code and why it hurts U.S. efforts.

The only exception is the off-chance that there is a first or second generation Afghanie Christian who is in or connected to our armed forces (meaning on the payroll), who’s religious belief requires him or her to read the Bible in his original vernacular...highly unlikely but still remotely possible.


11 posted on 07/30/2009 7:33:29 AM PDT by johnnycap
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To: stormer

A. I don’t believe this story

B. If it were true, they would have just dumped them. Have you ever tried to actually burn a book?

C. I don’t believe this story.


12 posted on 07/30/2009 7:33:49 AM PDT by villagerjoel (1. Implement socialist policies 2. ??? 3. Heaven on earth)
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To: nmh
Just asking, as maybe someone will know the answer, but how does one dispose of a Bible that is not intact anymore or is not allowed to be used (as in this case)?

I've heard that worn American flags are to be burned, as are the palms blessed at Easter and distributed to the parishioners/members. But what is the respectful means of disposing of worn or un-needed Bibles?

The one thing (maybe the only thing) I have learned about our military is the word “respect”. That's not to say they always live up to it or are shown it, but the stated goal is to “respect” authority. I somehow (knowing how much a part ethics and morality is stressed at OCS) suspect that this was not an un-researched method of disposing of the banned bibles.

I'm not going to comment on the proselytizing or the cause of the rejection of holy scripture, but rather the practical necessity of showing respect for the Divine Beatific Vision.

13 posted on 07/30/2009 7:34:22 AM PDT by Constitutions Grandchild
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To: nmh

My kind of Chaplian is found in Otto Sporrer. Part of his story is at http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,814487,00.html

Father Sporrer was awarded the Silver Star for his Chosin Reservoir actions. That fact comes from page 290 of the book “Chesty,” about Chesty Puller.


14 posted on 07/30/2009 7:35:16 AM PDT by OldNavyVet (The essence of evil lies in the irrational..)
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To: all the best

Those Christians who have helped this maggot ascend are also in for a real butt kicking, old testament style.


15 posted on 07/30/2009 7:37:00 AM PDT by DarthVader (Liberalism is the politics of EVIL whose time of judgment has come.)
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To: nmh
A Pentagon spokesman under the Obama Administration recently acknowledged and defended seizing and burning the privately owned Bibles of American soldiers serving in Afghanistan. The Bibles had been printed in the local Pashto and Dari languages, and sent by private donors last year (under the Bush Administration) to American Christian soldiers and chaplains, for distribution to American troops on overseas military bases during optionally-attended Christian worship services. Had the Bibles not been recently seized and destroyed (as verified and defended by the Obama Administration), they could have legally been given as gifts during off-duty time to Afghani citizens...

Ping for later

16 posted on 07/30/2009 7:40:56 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("I always longed for repose and quiet" - John Calvin)
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To: nmh

By the way, the guy that wrote this is the one who was booted from the navy for insubordination when he defied direct orders and participated in partisan political events in uniform. Military regulations have long forbidden this type of activity, and he knowingly disregarded that.

Captain Norm Holcomb, command chaplin NAS Norfolk, and this guy’s former boss said this:

“I was the dishonored ex-chaplain’s supervisor for the past 2 years. I found him to be totally untruthful, unethical and insubordinate. He was and is contemptuous of all authority. He was not court martialed for praying in Jesus’ name. I sent him out in uniform every week to pray at various ceremonies and functions. He always prayed in uniform and in Jesus’ name. He was never told that he could not pray in Jesus’ name. In fact, the issue of prayer had nothing at all to do with his dismissal from the Navy. He disobeyed the lawful order of a senior officer. I am sure that you understand that Navy Regulations forbid any of us, regardless of rank or position, to appear in uniform in support of any political or partisan event.”

“He appeared in direct support of a political event, demonstrating contempt for the order of his Commanding Officer and Naval Regulations that we all swear that we will abide by. The ex-chaplain is a man without honor and you have accepted his story and in doing so you have had ‘the wool pulled over your eyes.’”

“We have been relatively quiet regarding our ex-chaplain’s untruthfulness and lack of honor because we are embarrassed that one of our own could display such behavior in the name of our Lord. We wanted to spare all concerned the embarrassment associated with his dishonesty. However, it now seems that it would be wrong for those of us who know the truth to remain silent. I served with him and supervised him (as best as it was possible to supervise a person who refused to submit to lawful authority) and I know about his daily dishonesty and ‘spin’ of the truth.”

IOW, don’t believe anything that Klingenschmitt says.


17 posted on 07/30/2009 7:41:05 AM PDT by stormer
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To: OldNavyVet
Maybe you knew this, but in OCS they have regular Chosin Reservoir sessions. I had heard the name Chesty Puller as my son prepared to leave for his 10 weeks at Quantico, but when a Marine mother sent me the schedule for the entire summer program, I kept seeing “Chosin Reservoir” scheduled.

I was such a baby when it happened, and there was so little in history books about the Korean War because, as a nation, we were so sick of war, but I knew enough to ask when son called home. To see you mention it here, let's me know that my family is not alone. We remember and we are thankful for you all.

18 posted on 07/30/2009 7:46:33 AM PDT by Constitutions Grandchild
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To: nmh

We are a free society, they are a society of clans and tribes, who are totally indoctrinated by their religious leaders, who in many instances are their political leaders. Our business there is to stabilize the area and get their economy going. I can see where there may be some problems, with the “privately owned” bibles written in “Pushtu”. Our armed forces are not crusaders or evangelists, we are not there to build churches or introduce other religions, we are there to help combat the radicals and build an infrastructure. The last thing we want is to give them the impression that the military is there to convert them to Christianity. Want to distribute bibles in Pushtu use missionaries not soldiers.


19 posted on 07/30/2009 7:46:42 AM PDT by Bringbackthedraft (TR started the Bull Moose Party, maybe Palin can start the Moose Cow Party?)
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To: villagerjoel

20 posted on 07/30/2009 7:47:51 AM PDT by stormer
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To: penelopesire
“Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe our country had an agreement not to proselytize the local people in Afghanistan while on their soil. We may not like it as Christians, but this sounds like exactley what this group was doing and hence the military probably was required to take the bibles out of circulation.”

Nope!

Under the Afghan Constitution, the Afgan people have Freedom of Religion. The Afgan people are allowed to accept GIFTS. The Bible in their language qualifies as a “gift”. A gift can be accepted or rejected as easily as a soccer ball or a chocolate bar. Giving out a chocolate bar or a soccer ball isn't forcing anyone to eat chocolate, or play soccer. Nor is allowing people to choose if they want a Bible - “proselytizing”. It's just another choice and no one is forcing anyone to be a Christian - and under Afgan laws - they too have the right to Freedom of Religion and worship.

21 posted on 07/30/2009 7:48:44 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Bringbackthedraft
“The last thing we want is to give them the impression that the military is there to convert them to Christianity. “

Under the Afgan Freedom of Religion in their Constitution, this is what we would want to do if we want lasting peace. Genuine Christianity is the ONLY civilized religion. The purpose of the military is not to “convert” but they should be allowed to do this IF it is something they'd like to do.

Hey, if you want to follow Obama, that's also a choice!

22 posted on 07/30/2009 7:51:10 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: stormer

Do you have a link on that from a credible source?

TIA!


23 posted on 07/30/2009 7:51:59 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Constitutions Grandchild

I’ve heard some say “Treat it like a family member and bury it with a prayer service”, especially if it has been blessed by a priest. Others say to burn it or recycle it.


24 posted on 07/30/2009 7:54:51 AM PDT by ravingnutter
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To: mikelets456; stormer

Here is ABC reporting on the same story, the military did destroy the bibles instead of returning them to the source.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2254544/posts


25 posted on 07/30/2009 7:57:37 AM PDT by ansel12 (Romney (guns)"instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people")
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To: ravingnutter

Thank you. Enough said on this article.


26 posted on 07/30/2009 7:58:09 AM PDT by Constitutions Grandchild
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To: villagerjoel
Have you ever tried to actually burn a book?

Anything made of paper will burn if you soak it with enough kerosene.

27 posted on 07/30/2009 7:58:40 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money -- Thatcher)
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To: ravingnutter
Of course, I'm still toting the family Bibles from the 1700s (and, trust me, they are in major need of restoration), but it has never been an option to “retire” them. From those beautiful books with tucked in letters from that portion of Virginia which is now Ohio, to locks of hair tied up with faded ribbons, to news clippings of deceased friends and loved ones (one is about the death of an aide to General Washington), I can hold our country's history in my hands — burn them - NEVER!
28 posted on 07/30/2009 8:01:04 AM PDT by Constitutions Grandchild
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To: nmh
Will the Encyclopedia Britannica do? http://www.britannica.com/bps/additionalcontent/18/25635760/ExChaplains-Boss-Says-Religious-Right-Tales-Inaccurate
29 posted on 07/30/2009 8:02:27 AM PDT by stormer
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Comment #30 Removed by Moderator

To: Morgana
“Okay.....now I believe zero is the anti-christ....

LOL!

I wouldn't give that transparent trash that much credit!

Although he is setting the stage for very bad things ... .

Will he be successful in that for the real one?

31 posted on 07/30/2009 8:06:16 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: penelopesire
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe our country had an agreement not to proselytize the local people in Afghanistan while on their soil. We may not like it as Christians, but this sounds like exactley what this group was doing and hence the military probably was required to take the bibles out of circulation.

You're probably right. Still, visualize the reaction if a Muslim US soldier proselytizing to Catholics had his Quran taken and burned. I'm getting real tired of one-way "tolerance".

32 posted on 07/30/2009 8:07:04 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money -- Thatcher)
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To: nmh

Genuine Christianity is the ONLY civilized religion................................ I don’t know about that, the Chinese have done well with theirs and it dates back BC. Then again every religion believes they are civilized, even those who worship trees.


33 posted on 07/30/2009 8:07:34 AM PDT by Bringbackthedraft (TR started the Bull Moose Party, maybe Palin can start the Moose Cow Party?)
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To: johnnycap
Interesting how you use the excuse of Obama to defend erasing Christianity.

Under the Afgan Constitution that we, the U.S. under Bush helped them carve out, this is all LEGAL. And still, you want to trash the progress made in fear of them being influenced by Christianity.

Go figure!
I dare say, without apology, that Christianity is the ONLY civilized religion. Many won't believe but many who don't believe do respect the tenets of Biblical Christianity. Expect NO PEACE anywhere without it.

34 posted on 07/30/2009 8:11:10 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: nmh

Thanks for the info on the Afghan constitution. What I was referring to though, were the agreements we made with the Afghan government concerning guidelines for our soldiers while remaining in Afghanistan. I don’t know for sure, but I think it is an important question to have the answer to before we get too outraged.


35 posted on 07/30/2009 8:13:23 AM PDT by penelopesire ("The only CHANGE you will get with the Democrats is the CHANGE left in your pocket")
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To: PapaBear3625

“I’m getting real tired of one-way “tolerance”.”

Mega Dittos on that score.


36 posted on 07/30/2009 8:14:28 AM PDT by penelopesire ("The only CHANGE you will get with the Democrats is the CHANGE left in your pocket")
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To: stormer

B. is true. But there are always nutcases like ex chaplain Gordon James Klingernchmidtt who are prepared to lose a war.


37 posted on 07/30/2009 8:14:43 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (In Soviet Russia, Sarah Palin's house can see YOU)
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To: PapaBear3625; stormer

“Anything made of paper will burn if you soak it with enough kerosene.”

Anything that fits in a trash can will take much less time and effort to dispose of, (and would seem much less satanic than burning Bibles).


38 posted on 07/30/2009 8:17:16 AM PDT by villagerjoel (1. Implement socialist policies 2. ??? 3. Heaven on earth)
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To: Bringbackthedraft
“I don’t know about that, the Chinese have done well with theirs and it dates back BC. Then again every religion believes they are civilized, even those who worship trees.”

Clearly you are unfamiliar with world history.

I speak of GENUINE Bible based Christianity not Catholicism that tyrannize people, murdered people and tortured people.

As for the Chinese - LOL!!! Have you read ANYTHING about their dynasties?

Are you familiar with Environmentalists - those that “worship trees”? And you see THEM as tolerant and peace loving people? LOL!!!!

Get real!

39 posted on 07/30/2009 8:17:36 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: nmh
The Bibles had been printed in the local Pashto and Dari languages,

What BS, that is and was nothing more than an attempt to do back door missionary work. Not the duty of the united states military.

40 posted on 07/30/2009 8:18:18 AM PDT by org.whodat (Vote: Chuck De Vore in 2012.)
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To: ansel12
"...U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan may have been violating anti-proselytizing rules by distributing Dari-and Pashto-language New Testament Bibles. Central Command General Order No. 1 specifically forbids 'proselytizing of any faith, religion or practice.'

Lt. Colonel Gary Hensley, talking about the need to spread the Gospel:

'The special forces guys -- they hunt men basically,' Hensley said. 'We do the same things as Christians, we hunt people for Jesus. We do, we hunt them down. Get the hound of heaven after them, so we get them into the kingdom. That's what we do, that's our business.'..."

This guy should be fired.

41 posted on 07/30/2009 8:18:44 AM PDT by stormer
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To: stormer
A. I don’t believe this story;

I guess you believe the story now.

42 posted on 07/30/2009 8:23:40 AM PDT by ansel12 (Romney (guns)"instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people")
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To: nmh

I believe the Defense Department trumps the Afghan Constitution in this case. If a private contractor installing high speed cable in Afghanistan was also allowed under the Afghan Constitution the right to freedom of religion as I think you are referring under the Afghan Constitution and by implication PERHAPS the freedom to actively prosletize, that might be true. However, if the high speed cable company installing the optic fibre network finds that when one of their cable guys does this in a new town, the townspeople stop them from installing the cable, then it won’t be long before the contracting company tells it’s technicians not to do it.

Similarly, if freedom of speech is written in the Afghan Constitution, and as a result, U.S. Military personnel start passing out Megaphones to individuals in towns they go into, it won’t be long before the military has a very annoyed populace on its hands actively working to stop the military from experiencing success.

One last thing, the Afghan Constitution was written for the Citizens of Afghanistan not the United States Military which is essentially now a contractor for the government and previously a concerned nation fighting for another nation’s freedom. The constitution may not even apply to what quite possibly a majority of those same citizens actually view as a temporary interloper.

Finally, like many things in the constitution, while protected as a right if a citizen chooses to exercise, does not imply that it is a necessary essential element of basic democratic life. In the United States, if the right to bear arms if one chooses were an essential element, we would all get a hand gun at high school graduation. While that may be a bit absurd, the point remains. The United States Constitution (along with the Afghan Constitution) allows for the right to freedom of religion. Ours also stipulates a separation of church and state. That right does not come with the essential need for all to have Bibles nor the implication that State entities (like the U. S. Military), should voluntarily take up the cause of spreading religion just because the OPTION to practice a faith is a right defended by the Constitution. The voluntary action of a guest state operation hardly rises to the level of a Constitutional necessity and may in fact be a real danger to the guest state in the pursuit of it’s tactical, safety and strategic objectives.


43 posted on 07/30/2009 8:24:39 AM PDT by johnnycap
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To: stormer

Damn ... haven’t seen that movine in forever,


44 posted on 07/30/2009 8:27:58 AM PDT by Centurion2000 (Only feces and dead fish go with the flow.)
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To: nmh

“...privately owned Bibles of American soldiers serving in Afghanistan. The Bibles had been printed in the local Pashto and Dari languages...”

I doubt that even one in ten thousand American soldiers speak Pashto or Dari (unless specially trained for it), so the proselyting implication is verious obvious. Even so, I don’t see why they couldn’t just confiscate the bibles without burning them, it seems completely outrageous that they were burned (if it’s true).


45 posted on 07/30/2009 8:30:44 AM PDT by Texan Tory
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To: ansel12

Perhaps I should rephrase... I don’t believe the story as relayed by Klingenschmitt.


46 posted on 07/30/2009 8:32:59 AM PDT by stormer
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To: Centurion2000
I haven't either, but a couple of weeks ago I was in a bookstore and found a facsimile first edition. I'd forgotten so many aspects of the book (and how poorly the movie tells the story). I'm not one for remakes, but that's a movie that needs to be remade - Bradbury would approve - he didn't like the first one.
47 posted on 07/30/2009 8:36:07 AM PDT by stormer
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To: nmh

The rule being followed predates Obama.


48 posted on 07/30/2009 8:39:18 AM PDT by dmz
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To: stormer

Interesting. Good to get another side of the story, thanks.


49 posted on 07/30/2009 8:49:30 AM PDT by FreedomFerret
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To: nmh

As for the Chinese - LOL!!! Have you read ANYTHING about their dynasties?.................................. Only what I have seen on the History Channel. Which of the Chinese wars were fought over religion? Weren’t there wars between Christians? Which Christian sect are you representing? Most of Europe was Christian, how may wars have been fought there between Christian countries? True Christianity will not make peace, because it will never happen. There are only 2 species on earth that have wars, ants and humans and they are pretty much for the same reasons. There will never be 100% peace on earth. IMHO, it is an unattainable dream. Race, Religion, Political Thought, divided Geographical territorial lines, Greed and Evil will have to be removed and then you will have peace. I don’t see it happening in my life time, I wish you luck.


50 posted on 07/30/2009 9:51:57 AM PDT by Bringbackthedraft (TR started the Bull Moose Party, maybe Palin can start the Moose Cow Party?)
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