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US House strikes F-22 funding from defense bill
Reuters ^ | Thu Jul 30, 2009

Posted on 07/30/2009 11:28:07 AM PDT by Yo-Yo

WASHINGTON, July 30 (Reuters) - The U.S. House of Representatives on Thursday killed new funding for the disputed F-22 fighter jet program as part of a $636.3 billion military spending bill that was expected to clear the chamber.

House action on a vote of 269-165 to bury additional production of Lockheed Martin Corp's (LMT.N) F-22 solidified an important victory for the Obama administration on procurement reform and nullified a veto threat over the matter.

(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Government
KEYWORDS: 111th; aerospace; bhodod; boeing; defensespending; f22; lockheed; lockheedmartin; raptor
Goodbye Raptor, we hardly knew ye.
1 posted on 07/30/2009 11:28:07 AM PDT by Yo-Yo
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To: Yo-Yo

More job losses! Good going Democrats!


2 posted on 07/30/2009 11:29:50 AM PDT by avacado
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To: avacado

How many earmarks and for what amount were part of this Bill? Along with that, who put the earmarks in the Bill.


3 posted on 07/30/2009 11:31:35 AM PDT by RC2
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To: Yo-Yo
gates' presence at DoD has done nothing but give the obamites political cover to kill defense appropriations. and this story is hysterically misleading. the f-35 is not the "successor" to the f-22.
4 posted on 07/30/2009 11:34:02 AM PDT by JohnBrowdie (http://www.stink-eye.net)
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To: Yo-Yo

Well maybe the chinese will take it off our hands.


5 posted on 07/30/2009 11:37:01 AM PDT by devistate one four (Back by popular demand: America love or leave it (GTFOOMC) TET68)
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To: avacado
Industry leader Lockheed Martin Corp said this week it would cut 600 jobs, mainly in Owego, New York, as a result of the U.S. Defense Department's decision to terminate the VH-71 presidential helicopter program.

Aircraft maker Boeing Co said announced Pentagon cuts would claim 1,000 jobs in its defense business, affecting staffing at various U.S. work sites in missile defense and in the Army's Future Combat Systems modernization program, which is being opened to more competition.

Boeing, which has also been hit by the slump in commercial aerospace, declined to say whether the defense staff cuts were included in 10,000 jobs set to be pared companywide this year.

Congress is debating the Obama administration's fiscal 2010 defense budget request and has proposed changes, including adding back funding for some programs that the administration seeks to cut.

6 posted on 07/30/2009 11:38:27 AM PDT by b4its2late (Ignorance allows liberalism to prosper.)
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To: Yo-Yo
I wasn't an F-22 fan - there was waaaay too much emphasis on it at the expense of other things in the DoD budget; and the fighter mafia had tunnel vision.

But in the big picture of things, the F-22 production line could have been kept open and jobs could have been saved for the cost of a day and a half of the cost of the "Stimulus Package."


7 posted on 07/30/2009 11:40:30 AM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: Yo-Yo

An “important victory” for who? Iran? Red China? Every place this jet would have kicked a$$ is going to benefit from this debacle. Twenty years to develop a capability and less than 6 months to kill it. It makes me sick.


8 posted on 07/30/2009 11:41:06 AM PDT by blackpacific
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To: b4its2late

Thanks for the info. And those are professional jobs. Not Obama’s crappy shovel jobs.


9 posted on 07/30/2009 11:41:44 AM PDT by avacado
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To: Yo-Yo

Obama’s goal of taking down the last superpower is still on track.

Can’t have world government if a superpower exists.

Can’t have a superpower without de-industrializing it.


10 posted on 07/30/2009 11:53:58 AM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: Yo-Yo
Goodbye Raptor, we hardly knew ye.

In 1977, Jimmuh Carter killed the B-1.

In 1981, Ronald Reagan resurrected the B-1.

More Raptors delayed until 2010 when the rats get voted out of office. It's a dang good chance the House flips back to the Republicans.

11 posted on 07/30/2009 11:54:37 AM PDT by Red Steel
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To: Yo-Yo

And those young enough will do well to remember this event. Eventually we’ll get into a pissing match with......say, China...where we’ll discover that our military cannot keep up with the advanced foreign aircraft. Many good men will die defending America and we’ll hear how America needs to “catch up”. It happened in WWII, Korea and Vietnam. Thanks to President Reagan it didn’t happen in Iraq.
But....wait, maybe in 20 years YoBama will still be President and he’ll apologize and give China the rest of America. I’m glad I won’t see that........I’ll be “taking a pill”.


12 posted on 07/30/2009 11:58:05 AM PDT by Dapper 26
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To: Yo-Yo
"...solidified an important victory for the Obama administration on procurement reform..."

No, that is an important step forward in the disarming of America.

13 posted on 07/30/2009 12:08:33 PM PDT by Redleg Duke ("Sarah Palin...Unleashing the Fury of the Castrated Left!")
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To: Red Steel
In 1977, Jimmuh Carter killed the B-1A, a high altitude, high speed (mach 2+) strategic bomber. In 1981 Ronald Reagan ressurected the B-1B, a bomber that traded some of the B-1A's top speed (mach 1.25) for low level penetration. They may have looked similar, but the B-1B was not the same aircraft that Carter killed.

Likewise, the basic F-22A Raptor is a tremedous dog-fighter, and with it's extremely high ceiling and supercruise, it can be places that the Chinese can't expect or challenge.

But it's electronics were designed almost two decades ago, and could greatly benefit from systems designed for the F-35. In about four years, we could definately use an F-22B program that provides the Raptor with the F-35's sensor fusion, data link sharing, and helmet mounted cueing and system displays.

In some respects, the F-16s we sold to Saudi Arabia are more technically advanced than the F-22A.

14 posted on 07/30/2009 12:12:24 PM PDT by Yo-Yo
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To: Yo-Yo

Sorry, the F-16E/F Block 60 was sold to the UAE, not Saudi Arabia.


15 posted on 07/30/2009 12:16:58 PM PDT by Yo-Yo
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To: Dapper 26
Some of you are nuts, we are not going to war with china, you cannot fight a country that can lose 100 million people and not even know they are gone. Someone has their ten foil hats on to tight. Besides that, wal mart would not have anything to sell.
16 posted on 07/30/2009 12:23:02 PM PDT by org.whodat (Vote: Chuck De Vore in 2012.)
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To: Yo-Yo
The way I remember the B-1 that Carter killed that it too was going to penetrate the Soviet Union at low-level, and not as a high altitude strategic bomber. It was the XB-70 Valkyrie bomber that was to be the high altitude bomber, but the Pentagon killed that program because the Russian defense threat by SAMs and fighters was too great. Around that time, the B-52 changed tactics to go in low level to attack the Soviet Union to avoid the high altitude SAMS and to mask their approach using the terrain.

My recall of the B-1 that Carter killed is reflected below:

"The B-1 Lancer is a strategic bomber used by the United States Air Force. First envisioned in the 1960s as a supersonic bomber with sufficient range and payload to replace the B-52 Stratofortress, it developed primarily into a low-level penetrator with long range and supersonic speed capability. Its development was stopped and restarted multiple times over its history, as the theory of strategic balance changed from flexible response to mutually assured destruction and back again. It eventually entered service more than 20 years after first being studied."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-1_Lancer

The B-1B was updated but it was still the same basic A/C that Carter killed.

17 posted on 07/30/2009 12:32:32 PM PDT by Red Steel
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To: org.whodat; All

People like you said the same thing before WWII... It is always best to be prepared..


18 posted on 07/30/2009 12:41:26 PM PDT by KevinDavis (Can't Stop the Signal!)
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To: KevinDavis

Grow up, the year is 2009, those people have nuclear weapons. No one but no one is going to be fly a stupid dog fighting plane over their country unless you want to write off the western united states.


19 posted on 07/30/2009 12:49:54 PM PDT by org.whodat (Vote: Chuck De Vore in 2012.)
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To: Yo-Yo; Jet Jaguar; NorwegianViking; ExTexasRedhead; HollyB; FromLori; EricTheRed_VocalMinority; ...

The list, ping


20 posted on 07/30/2009 1:33:27 PM PDT by Nachum (The complete Obama list at www.nachumlist.com)
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To: Yo-Yo
solidified an important victory for the Obama administration on procurement reform and nullified a veto threat over the matter

This isn't about procurement reform, this is about clearing the deck of outyear spending on the military so Obama can spend even more money on his social programs.

21 posted on 07/30/2009 1:39:19 PM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: Red Steel

It is true that the B-1A was to have low level penetration, but it was still planned to be a mach 2+ strategic bomber. The B-1B had an increased payload, decreased top speed, and although many conventional weapons integration too way too long, it became a multi-role bomber. I believe the B-1B also lost the B-1A’s F-111 style crew ejection module for conventional ejection seats.

And of course you are correct about the XB-70, the aircraft that Soviets designed the MiG-25 for. The Valkyrie had no low-level capabilities at all.


22 posted on 07/30/2009 1:41:51 PM PDT by Yo-Yo
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To: Yo-Yo
From what I've read, the F22’s sensor system is far superior to the F35’s, if that plane ever gets produced.

“...sensor fusion, data link sharing, and helmet mounted cueing and system displays” are already on the latest active versions of the F22, and work with AWACs to locate and direct lessor planes like the F16 to targets.

The F16’s may or may not have something advanced on them, but nothing classified, further the F16 has been superseded as an air superiority fighter by several versions of existing Flankers and holds no threat to later models, let alone SU’s next generations.

“F-22A Raptor is a tremedous dog-fighter” and there is no existing or future planned plan which negates its effectiveness; in short the F22 is not just a “tremendous” dog-fighter, but the most superior fighter ever built.

Sounds like you must be in either the “feed the homeless first” group, or the “drones are the future” camp. Could be wrong, but that's how it sounds.

And yes the Chinese and Russian Mil and their 3rd country advisers will expect them in those “places” and try hitting them with anti-access weapons, which neither the F16 nor the F35 can defeat. Those are the weapons the F22 was designed to take out before the F16s or F35s entered the combat zone.

Neither the Russian nor the Chinese Mils are stupid - that honor falls to the US’s Mil perfumed princes, who like Sec. Gates are in the game for the power and politics - winning wars are optional as are the weapons to achieve victory.

Cheers

23 posted on 07/30/2009 5:51:57 PM PDT by PIF
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To: SkyPilot

The “Stimulus Package” was of course never designed to save or create any jobs. For a couple of more days likely we could have had all 750 built.


24 posted on 07/30/2009 5:55:07 PM PDT by PIF
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To: b4its2late

Wait til you see how many professional jobs are lost when Our Dear Leader ends NASA’s manned space program...


25 posted on 07/30/2009 5:56:15 PM PDT by PIF
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To: Secret Agent Man

“Obama’s goal of taking down the last superpower is still on track.

“Can’t have a superpower without de-industrializing it.

“Can’t have world government if a superpower exists.”

Can’t have a world government without de-stabilizing the superpower.

Can’t have a world government without Obama to head it.


26 posted on 07/30/2009 5:59:00 PM PDT by PIF
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To: Yo-Yo

It is important for the Soviets to be able to sell more fighters in order to advance the Ci-cago agenda.


27 posted on 07/30/2009 6:37:50 PM PDT by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them or they more like we used to be?)
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To: PIF
“...sensor fusion, data link sharing, and helmet mounted cueing and system displays” are already on the latest active versions of the F22, and work with AWACs to locate and direct lessor planes like the F16 to targets.

I beg to differ. Helmet cueing is not part of any F-22, nor part of any planned upgrades. Very interesting reading:

The F-22 Can't Do What?

And Dave Majumdar's article that the above Dew Line blog post is based on: Sharpening the Raptor's talons

...

Unfortunately, while Increment 3.2 includes a HOBS capable weapon, it does not include provisions for a helmet mounted cueing system (HMCS), which some consider as being essential. “The JROC validated F-22 Capabilities Production Document, which defines requirements for all Increment 3 changes, does not include provisions for a HMCS. A HMCS may be considered as part of the post Increment 3 trade space”, Miller said. However, the addition of the AIM-9X will significantly increase the Raptor’s within visual range combat prowess even without such a helmet.

...

Despite the addition of the MADL, the F-22 will retain its own proprietary Intra-flight Data Link (IFDL). The one major shortcoming of the new MADL data link is that it does nothing to address the inability of the Raptor to transfer data off-board to legacy fourth generation aircraft such as the F-15s or F-16s except by means of voice communications.


28 posted on 07/30/2009 7:23:58 PM PDT by Yo-Yo
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To: org.whodat

Don’t get your panties in a bunch. China was used as an example. If it bothers you so much, replace China with Venezuela.


29 posted on 07/30/2009 11:02:05 PM PDT by Dapper 26
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To: Yo-Yo
Procurement Reform = More Taxpayer Money for Abortion, ACORN and Hamas while dismantling the Military to appease the Left.

I guess this means the Russians and the Chinese will be scrapping their 5th Generation Stealth Fighter Programs.

Remember Obama saying he wouldn't weaponize space? I'm sure as soon as those words exited his mouth, the Russians and Chinese scrapped their Space Weaponization plans as well.

Chamberlain had nothing on Barry Sortero.

30 posted on 07/30/2009 11:14:48 PM PDT by Kickass Conservative (There is nothing wrong with the Government that 552 bullets couldn't cure...)
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To: Yo-Yo

Guess the USA is getting out of the business of building (good) Jet Fighters. Hopely the Russian will sells us some of thiers. I am pretty sure the magic bullet F-35 is going to be a dud in Air to Air.


31 posted on 07/30/2009 11:41:55 PM PDT by jpsb
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To: jpsb
Oh, one other thing, goodbye Raptor really means goodbye Taiwan.
32 posted on 07/30/2009 11:43:44 PM PDT by jpsb
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To: PIF

Yeah, you’re right. I don’t think the first shoe has even hit the floor yet.


33 posted on 07/31/2009 4:57:07 AM PDT by b4its2late (Ignorance allows liberalism to prosper.)
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To: Dapper 26

ROFLOL,


34 posted on 07/31/2009 12:38:08 PM PDT by org.whodat (Vote: Chuck De Vore in 2012.)
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To: PIF
And what if the United States and maybe its allies have to fight a conventional war with Russia, China or any other foe equipped with state-of-the-art Russian / Chinese weapons? Air Power Australia has the solutions.
35 posted on 08/02/2009 6:27:11 PM PDT by myknowledge (F-22 Raptor: World's Largest Distributor of Sukhoi parts!)
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