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The Turning Point
Air Force Magazine ^ | 8/1/2009 | Rebecca Grant

Posted on 08/05/2009 6:12:23 PM PDT by Excuse_My_Bellicosity

A year ago, USAF had a fully funded modernization program. That program has unraveled.

The Air Force is in the throes of what could prove to be one of the greatest upheavals in its turbulent 62-year history.

The words “danger” and “difficulty” have become only too appropriate in describing the situation of USAF’s critical combat formations. Today is a time when aged fighters fall out of the sky and no replacement bomber is in sight. The nation bets its basic security on a force that is older—by far—than at any time since World War II.

Some see the current turmoil as comparable to earlier struggles over strategic bombers, ICBMs, and space. Those dustups created years of uncertainty.

The unofficial term “combat air forces” refers to fighter, attack, bomber, and some intelligence-surveillance-reconnaissance (ISR) assets. Within that grouping, the fighter and attack force comprises the bulk of manned and unmanned striking power.

The CAF is US airpower’s center of gravity, and it has already undergone irrevocable change and damage. USAF fighter and attack aircraft are aging faster than they can be replaced.

A year ago, the Air Force possessed a fully funded modernization program covering fighters, bombers, unmanned aerial systems, data links, and more. That program has unraveled. In its place comes a new Pentagon directive: Hold off on modernization and freely accept moderate to high risk in force plans.

“We’re not going to build the Air Force we thought we were going to build,” said Michael B. Donley, the service Secretary.

The crisis has been brought to a head by Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates’ decision to halt all production of the F-22 air superiority fighter and cut the maximum production rate of the F-35 multirole fighter. As a result, the service is trying to figure out how to do what it has never done: Accept into its aircraft mix a large number of less capable legacy forces.

The Air Force now being crafted will not be the advanced, sophisticated force conceived after Desert Storm in 1991. Plans laid in the mid-1990s called for the Air Force to push out all of its 1970s-era F-15s, F-16s, F-117s, and A-10s and replace them with new “fifth generation” F-22s and F-35s.

That plan would have, in due course, replaced all F-15Cs, F-16s, and A-10s with 381 F-22s and 1,763 F-35s.

The new plan calls for something less—far less. The new combat structure has been described as a “fifth generation-enabled” force, using small buys of advanced fighters to bootstrap more capability out of modernized legacy fighters.

In this regard, the Pentagon under Gates has made some big moves. The biggest were those to stop F-22 production at 187 aircraft—about half of the Air Force’s full replacement requirement of 381—and to limit maximum production of the F-35.

Gates’ actions were nothing if not controversial. Retired USAF Lt. Gen. Thomas G. McInerney spoke for many with his claim, “This is the most dangerous defense budget since the post-World War II period.” Others dispute this, but there is no disputing the severity of the change.

Gates has made plain that his oft-declared effort to “rebalance” American military forces is no mere budget drill. Indeed, the Fiscal 2010 budget plan that he unveiled on April 6 was, in his words, “a budget crafted to reshape the priorities of America’s defense establishment.”

A Surfeit of Power

Those plans have been shaken to their foundations. US defense policy has been decoupled from a decades-long commitment to ensure no other power dominates any key region of the world. Two reasons have been adduced by defense officials.

One is a perceived need to focus more intently on wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and, in so doing, bring programming for irregular warfare into the service mainstream. The second is Gates’ view that the US military already possesses a surfeit of a certain kind of power—conventional power.

Indeed, Gates’ comments and decisions show he’s making a deliberate shift away from what are now pejoratively called forces for major theater wars. Areas of US military dominance are now referred to as “excessive overmatch.”

In their joint USAF posture statement, Donley and Gen. Norton A. Schwartz, the Chief of Staff, state: “The Department of Defense provided guidance for the military to eliminate excessive overmatch in our tactical fighter force and consider alternatives in our capabilities.”

Oddly, the Gates shift does not stem from a full-blown strategy review by the Obama Administration; no national security review has yet taken place on the new President’s watch. Instead, Gates has used as his rationale the 2008 National Defense Strategy, shaped largely by himself and vigorously opposed by all the service Chiefs because of its acceptance of risk in the field of major conventional war.

At the center of this new risk strategy is the Air Force’s combined fighter, bomber, and attack fleet—the CAF.

For one thing, budget decisions contained in the 2010 plan guarantee that airmen will be compelled to continue flying aged F-15s and F-16s—two airplanes designed in the 1970s and bought, for the most part, in the 1970s and 1980s—for another three decades. The bomber force is, in many ways, worse off.

Old aircraft is only one side of the equation. The other side features a major modernization slump, based on Gates’ fighter and bomber decisions.

Taken together, these moves will inevitably drive the Air Force to higher risk levels. There are many reasons for this, but one big one is this: In the past decade, there grew within the Pentagon an overall sense that the CAF was too big.

The problem may have started in early 1991. In January and February of that year, the dominant airpower of a US-led military coalition decimated Iraqi air and ground forces in the six-week Desert Storm campaign. This led, postwar, to substantial cuts in fighter forces—from 38 to 20 active and reserve wings.

At first, this seemed reasonable. Substantial aircraft procurement in the Reagan 1980s meant the remaining USAF fighter force structure in the 1990s was, for the most part, young and strong. Moreover, equippage with precision weapons post-Desert Storm further increased the power of the fleet, allowing USAF to retire older aircraft. In all, the fighter inventory declined by some 1,000 aircraft.

What’s more, the experiences of Desert Storm led the Air Force to stop buying F-15s and F-16s in favor of developing lethal stealth and precision fighter-bombers for the future, the F-22 and F-35. Research and development money went to F-22 and F-35 programs. Meanwhile, USAF took the opportunity to invest in C-17s and complete the small B-2 bomber buy.

For all that, some in the Pentagon continued to harbor a belief that USAF had more combat airpower than it needed. Cuts came in the 1997 Quadrennial Defense Review, and challenges to USAF force modernization cropped up repeatedly in the late 1990s.

It was not until 2002—the second year of the George W. Bush presidency—that the real challenges began to take shape.

In 2002, the F-22—the leading platform in the Air Force modernization plan—was subjected to a very tough, high-profile review by the Office of the Secretary of Defense. The USAF requirement for 381 F-22s survived the blitz, but barely.

Things rocked along for another two years. However, the enormous cost of the Iraq War finally became a factor working against the F-22. In December 2004, the Pentagon issued an internal directive known as Program Budget Decision 753, signed by Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul D. Wolfowitz.

The directive lopped billions in funding from long-term fighter procurement. It swept away all money for F-22 production after 2011. The end result of this budget drill was a truncated “program of record” of only 179 F-22s. (Efficiencies later allowed the Air Force to purchase another four, for a total of 183 fighters.)

The directive also created a fighter gap. The nation’s war plans stuck the Air Force with a requirement for 2,400 fighters. Funding, though, would provide only 1,600. The gap came to a whopping 800 combat fighters.

The Air Force worried about that gap. However, USAF’s leaders believed they could live with a smaller fleet, given the capabilities of the F-22 and F-35. A severe funding crunch upended that plan. The Air Force could not buy new fighters fast enough to replace ones that reached their service life limits.

Senior Air Force leaders continued to budget for F-22 and F-35 production at better rates. At least with respect to the F-22, those efforts were met with constant opposition from OSD officials. The key figure in the anti-Raptor cabal was Gordon England, the deputy secretary of defense who had been appointed by Donald H. Rumsfeld but retained by Gates.

Excessive Overmatch?

England was an interesting case. He had worked for two fighter houses—General Dynamics and, briefly, Lockheed Martin. When, in 2005, he was made deputy secretary of defense, England made no secret of his dislike for the F-22 and Lockheed’s Marietta, Ga.-based fighter “mafia.” He expressed a strong preference for the F-35, and became a great proponent of the notion that USAF was in possession of “excessive overmatch” in combat air forces.

Gates made that capability a major target for cuts when he began to settle on details of a new national defense strategy in the first half of 2008. The Pentagon chief focused military energies on irregular warfare. He laid the groundwork for dismantling much of the planning guidance for major theater wars. The strategy also provided the justification for getting rid of many theater war capabilities across the armed services.

One clear goal of the strategy: The downgrading of the relative importance of US conventional military forces— namely, those flexible, service-specific core competencies focused on dealing with major theater adversaries in various regions.

The need to prepare to fight and win major theater wars always had provided a framework for US defense plans. Moreover, defense strategy in the 1990s had moved away from planning for specific scenarios. Into its place moved so-called capabilities-based planning. As set out by William J. Perry, Secretary of Defense in the period 1994-97, the essence of the strategy was to prepare forces to combat capabilities presented by regional aggressors, and adapt strategies and operational plans to contingencies as they arose.

Capabilities-based planning put heavy emphasis on evaluating adversary military equipment and potential force developments, ranging from diesel submarines to surface-to-air missiles.

Gates, however, came into office with a view that effectively put an end to capabilities-based planning. When his new strategy was released in July 2008, he declared, “I firmly believe that in the years ahead, our military is much more likely to engage in asymmetric conflict than conventional conflict against a rising state power.”

Gates made irregular warfare his own personal cause. He claimed that big conventional programs had strong constituencies, but IW did not. He planned to give it one.

Publicly there was little discussion of the Gates strategy. The Presidential election was in full swing and most saw the Gates document as a strategy “destined to be overtaken by events,” in the words of Michele Flournoy, then president of the Center for a New American Security (and now Gates’ undersecretary of defense for policy).

Nor did Gates try to play his hand to a conclusion. Decisions on the F-22, a new aerial tanker, and other programs were deferred to the next Administration.

Part of the reason may have been that the Joint Chiefs collectively non-concurred with the strategy. After discussions between the Chiefs and Gates, Gates in summer 2008 elected to go ahead with the document over their objections. By then, Gates had already forced out Secretary of the Air Force Michael W. Wynne and Gen. T. Michael Moseley, the Chief of Staff. In effect, the Air Force and other services lost their battle to try to get Gates to pay attention to future threats from their perspective. He saw their view as merely so much “next-war-itis.”

Things were to change, though. Gates saw his hand strengthened considerably after President-elect Barack Obama asked him to stay on in the defense post.

Soon, his strategy preferences began to emerge in programmatic form. Gates made a strange post-election move. The Bush White House, at the behest of the Joint Chiefs, had approved a large budget increase for Fiscal 2010, but Gates turned back $50 billion of it. With Bush gone and Obama in, Gates stepped up to the task of redirecting spending for the 2010 budget year into a series of bold changes. Few had foreseen how dramatic the changes would be.

Full details have yet to emerge. However, the overall direction is clear. Funding taken out over several years will make it impossible for the Air Force to buy a truly modernized force.

Buried in the details of the 2010 budget was a major negative decision: DOD would not, as asked, ramp up USAF’s F-35 purchases to 110 per year. Gates approved funding for a maximum rate of only 80 F-35s per year for USAF.

The decision to fund F-35 production at that rate locks in major shifts for the Air Force. First, it guarantees the long-term USAF fighter inventory will be smaller than planned by at least several hundred aircraft.

Will that number be enough to support overseas and homeland security requirements? The answer depends on details of the force planning construct. The F-35 budget was set prior to any decision on new defense planning scenarios and will be affected by decisions in the Pentagon’s massive 2009 defense review.

The Net Result

Theater war planning itself is out of favor. Not only that, but, for many, the goal of preparing forces to fight in two regions more or less at the same time seems much less compelling than it once was. The ability to take on two adversaries almost simultaneously has been a core tenet of US national security policy since the Truman years. However, with Gates opting for more risk in conventional conflicts, the two-war notion looked like an outmoded construct.

The net result of all these and other factors is a trend toward forces for just one theater war. Schwartz testified within recent weeks that there was “no question” that 187 F-22s would be “adequate for one major combat operation.” However, sizing combat forces for one operation at a time could seriously limit future policy options.

A final element of change in the rebalancing strategy is a rebuff of technology—a move particularly hard on the USAF combat air forces. Gates made it clear he is not a fan of exotic and highly capable weapons.

“I concluded we needed to shift away from the 99 percent ‘exquisite’ service-centric platforms that are so costly and so complex that they take forever to build and only then in very limited quantities,” Gates told an audience at Air University in Montgomery, Ala., on April 15, 2009. “With the pace of technological and geopolitical change, and the range of possible contingencies, we must look more to the 80 percent multiservice solution that can be produced on time, on budget, and in significant numbers.”

Unfortunately, the combination of Gates’ F-22, F-35, and bomber decisions ensures that USAF will not make a full transition to “fifth generation” aircraft. Instead, USAF will most likely keep significant numbers of F-15Es, F-15Cs, and advanced block F-16s for some time to come. The fleet will hit a low point over the next five years as fighters age and F-22 production ends.

This transition phase will last a decade as USAF’s planned F-35 inventory slowly builds. It’s a fact of life in this joint, allied program that the Marine Corps and several allies will receive deliveries of F-35s before Air Force bulk buys begin.

The result is that, five years from now, USAF’s combat air forces will actually look older than it does now.

Under the Gates plan (subject to the strong possibility of revision by Congress), the Air Force in 2014 will field a mere 186 F-22s and some 100 F-35s. This boutique fifth generation force will account for just 19 percent of the active duty inventory. The other 81 percent are to be old fighters.

By 2020, the situation should have improved. USAF, by that year, should take delivery of about 580 F-35s. That assumes OSD imposes no further program cuts or schedule delays.

The F-22s and F-35s, joined with remaining F-15Es and even a few F-16s, will form a fleet of around 1,300 active duty fighters. The CAF of 2020 will be an improvement, but it will never be able to give the nation full return on the taxpayer investments. Nor will it be the low-risk, superior force that was planned prior to 2009.

Now clear for all to see is the fundamental result of a decade of Pentagon decision-making: For the first time since the years before World War II, the Air Force has failed to re-equip itself.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 0bamasfault; 111th; aerospace; airforce; bhodod; defensespending; f22; f22raptor; f35; jsf; obamasfault; raptor; savetheraptor; usaf
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When RINOs and Democraps run the country, the result is obvious.
1 posted on 08/05/2009 6:12:23 PM PDT by Excuse_My_Bellicosity
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To: Excuse_My_Bellicosity
but ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh my, there is MONEY for CLUNKERS!

Have I said how much I HATE the leadership in DC these days...what a bunch of lilly livered men and women who have not only FORGOTTEN what their Oath of Office says but have turned their back on our security.

God forgive me, and I will pray about it, but I hate what they are doing to our country. I do. It is so very, very wrong.

2 posted on 08/05/2009 6:15:15 PM PDT by Republic
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To: Republic

“but ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh my, there is MONEY for CLUNKERS!”

And... there’s money to pay for “power chairs” for lardasses.


3 posted on 08/05/2009 6:27:01 PM PDT by Never on my watch (Obama, what's the name of the soldier on your bracelet?)
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To: Excuse_My_Bellicosity
"Now clear for all to see is the fundamental result of a decade of Pentagon decision-making: For the first time since the years before World War II, the Air Force has failed to re-equip itself."

Just wanted that line to sink in to the naysayers out there that said it wouldn't happen.

4 posted on 08/05/2009 6:28:14 PM PDT by SiVisPacemParaBellum (Peace through superior firepower!)
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To: Excuse_My_Bellicosity

As a prior member of Air Combat Command, I can say that the Air Force fighter-pilot leadership is largely to blame for the AF’s plight. They allowed the entire AF infrastructure to go to waste while they continued to push for their F-22 program. Meanwhile their ground radar systems, maintenance teams, logistical support, cyber warfare capability, nuclear fleet, and space systems have all been allowed to rot all for the precious new plane. So now they have an F-22 that has not been deployable to the war zone. Gates has no confidence in the current Air Force leadership, otherwise you would not have seen a few top level Air Force firings, the return of TAC (as Global Strike), cyber command being removed from ACC as well as combat comm, and the navy being looked at as the choice service for ballistic missile defense and possibly for the future of our GPS-type systems.

The fighter pilots had the keys to the Air Force kingdom and they have blown it. I loved the military, but the truth is that the Air Force is just another beauracratic government agency that thinks little of the taxpayer money and run by powerful men disconnected from what does and does not work at a tactical level.


5 posted on 08/05/2009 6:30:45 PM PDT by DeuceTraveler (Freedom is a never ending struggle)
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To: Excuse_My_Bellicosity
Get rid of the A-10? Most every war since WWII has been against a second, or less rate military.

WTF?

Hasn't the Air Force ever heard of cost benefit?

Why send a Ferrari to do a Pickup's job?

6 posted on 08/05/2009 6:32:13 PM PDT by Leisler
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To: SiVisPacemParaBellum
Good way to make this knowledge stand out! It is really creepy and sad and INFURIATING NEWS! And I guess that now all of our enemies know that uhbama and his band of SNAKES and I DO MEAN SNAKES...starting with Rahm and going from there...have taken down and intend to disrupt and destroy the greatest military maching the world has EVER KNOWN...the fairest, strongest, most decent, most generous and more courageous military mankind has ever experienced.

I HATE this administration, with all of my heart. God forgive, but I do.

7 posted on 08/05/2009 6:33:56 PM PDT by Republic
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To: Republic

Perhaps aerial warfare is moving toward unmanned aircraft and guided bombs. Perhaps the 70’s and 80’s vintage airframes are still close to state-of-the art for airframes and it is a smart move to just outfit them with new electronics and weapons. Our airframes might be old but the airframes+electronics are the best on the planet (I think).

What are fighter aircraft used for? Destroying targets on the ground and destroying other aircraft. How badly do we need fighters with more speed or more range or more ammo capacity? I don’t know.

Let’s suppose we could take ten billion dollars and develop a new plane and build ten of them, or take that same ten billion dollars and build 100 of an existing aircraft with the latest weaponry. Which is best?

Then there’s the matter of spare parts and trained personnel. That infrastructure is in place for the existing aircraft. Recall that a major cost saver and simplifier of life for Southwest Airlines is that they use only one aircraft.

And think about non-aircraft things that the money to develop a new fighter could be used for. Perhaps a laser aircraft and missile defense system. Perhaps something for our ground forces for use in guerrilla warfare.


8 posted on 08/05/2009 6:36:48 PM PDT by frposty (I'm a simpleton)
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To: Excuse_My_Bellicosity
My Dad joined the Army to fight in WWII.

He trained in Wyo at what is now an USAF base.

HE trained with a ‘rifle’ made from a broomstick and a piece of 2x4.

When he was shipping out to the combat zone (PTO) he asked about his weapon. He was told that he would get on in-theater, from a casualty - and they had a LOT of casualties.

He told me he swore an oath to the Lord that if he lived thru the war, he would fight (and pay) to ensure his sons would never have to go to war so damnably prepared. I did pretty good while in service. What Dad didn't understand was that he should have added his Grandchildren to his oath......

9 posted on 08/05/2009 6:42:35 PM PDT by ASOC (Cave quid dicis, quando, et cui)
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To: Excuse_My_Bellicosity
The Presidential Oath of Office (from the US Constitution):

Article Two, Section One, Clause Eight: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

The Preamble

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
[emphasis added]

One has to wonder how faithfully that oath is being discharged…
10 posted on 08/05/2009 6:52:59 PM PDT by Lucky Dog
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To: Excuse_My_Bellicosity

Don’t need weapons, just apology tours and group hugs.


11 posted on 08/05/2009 6:55:18 PM PDT by nufsed (Release the birth certificate, passport, and school records.)
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To: SiVisPacemParaBellum
What we are really saying is that we want our young men and women to go into harm's way using substandard equipment. Think about it for a minute, if it were your son or daughter. This is a ridiculous strategy.

The first question that must be asked is, “What are the goals?” Then the next question that needs to be asked is, “ What are the strategies required to reach those goals?” Then you determine the cost effectiveness of each strategy to see which strategy you choose. Then you develop the tactics to make those strategies succeed. What we appear to be doing nationally is insuring that an adversary will attempt to defeat us in a major conflict. The adversary isn't necessarily one country alone, but a group of countries. When they think they can beat us, they will try. We have a lot of riches here. May God have mercy on us, if things aren't changed.

12 posted on 08/05/2009 7:01:22 PM PDT by Citizen Tom Paine
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To: Excuse_My_Bellicosity

The left will destroy our military.


13 posted on 08/05/2009 7:08:12 PM PDT by snowsislander (NRA -- join today! 1-877-NRA-2000)
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To: DeuceTraveler

Hey, stop making sense. The USAF has always hated the close air support mission, preferring instead to build super high tech super expensive toys.

Meanwhile, our infantry still carries a 50 year old rifle, wears forty-pound body armor, and carries twenty pound radios. The USAF can cry me a river-THEY aren’t paying in blood.


14 posted on 08/05/2009 7:32:15 PM PDT by Terabitten (Vets wrote a blank check, payable to the Constitution, for an amount up to and including their life.)
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To: Excuse_My_Bellicosity

I was in the Navy during Vietnam and afterward, and I remember what happened to the military under Jimmy Carter. The military was hit hard by cuts in spending and personnel. Many excellent officers and enlisted were forced to leave. Obama needs the military for domestic purposes. He and congress know that without the threat of military force against the people of the United States, the people would revolt against him and congress. The Federal government could not function without the military; however, you don’t need the latest and best military equipment to enforce martial law. Civilians don’t usually own jets and tanks. If the government is successful in seizing personal weapons, such as firearms, the populus will be totally defenseless. I’m not saying that the majority of Americans are planning to overthrow the government, but my point is that without force of arms there is no way to enforce the rules and regulations pumped out by Congress. Liberals and Socialists fear their electorate more than they fear foreign enemies. Obama and Congress are going to try and reduce the deficit spending on the backs of the military, but they will always need an army.


15 posted on 08/05/2009 7:33:38 PM PDT by Nosterrex
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To: Citizen Tom Paine

What is the size and capability of the forces that are possible opponents?

There is nobody with numbers close to US numbers (or quality) anytime in the next 15 years.


16 posted on 08/05/2009 7:47:42 PM PDT by glorgau
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To: Never on my watch

“but ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh my, there is MONEY for CLUNKERS!”

Yea!thats about what the Administration is forcing the Air Force to fly.Clunkers.


17 posted on 08/05/2009 7:52:58 PM PDT by puppypusher (The world is going to the Dogs.)
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To: Terabitten

Easy there buddy... Actually the USAF is paying in blood; I went to the memorial for the F-16 guy who died while strafing to save Army guys in Iraq a ways back. His wife and kids seemed to think he paid a high price, his wife looked like she was about to fall over while walking out of the memorial. Believe it or not we’re on the same team, although unfortunately the Infantry is paying the high price now. Trust me, I know that from first hand experience, and it is profoundly sad.

I wouldn’t even consider telling the Army Infantry guys how to run their programs. I would hope you would respect our 40 plus years of keeping US Forces free from air attack, while also doing a pretty good job of beating down forces before the ground guys get there. The Gulf War was a pretty good example of that. The point of the story above is we’re gutting our tactical air forces, we don’t have a plan in place to replace our equipment, and we may not be able to guarantee freedom from air attack in the future. I am not a big fan of the F-22, but I am less of fan of having not enough fighters to take on China or Iran if needed. Take a look at Jane’s Defence if you want to see how good they are getting and what type of equipment they are producing. It is good stuff and they have lots of it. And its all for sale too.

And by the way, the A-10A has been funded (for the most part) for the A-10C upgrade, and should be around for a looong time. Pray there are no SA-6/11s around if they do fly in future conflicts.


18 posted on 08/05/2009 11:47:18 PM PDT by yankeebulldog ("Semper Viper!")
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To: frposty
Good points. But you do not leave a GAP between goals when dealing with defense. If retrofitting existing craft makes sense, good. Do it. But it the existing crafts are not longer air worthy because a structual problems...other systems need to being built NOW to replace them. Just as weaponry must continually evolve because the ability to destroy it in the air continually evolves, so does the delivery system.

We have an amazing new F22 (have 180 but uhbama will not allow anymore to be built) and have the prototype of the F35 (a few are flying but it is a plane for ALL services - with variations [ie the ones that would land on aircraft carriers] that ubama had said NO to building the real deal.)

uhbama is a total immature jerk who could care less about our ability to help others and especially our ability to protect ourselves....my, goodness...if we were attacked somewhere in this nation, ol uhbama and Rahm would USE the horror or crisis to inflict MORE RESTRAINTS on our freedom.

19 posted on 08/06/2009 6:23:24 AM PDT by Republic
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To: Leisler

About the A-10, take a look at how many bullets the F-35 carries versus the A-10’s. We will miss the A-10.


20 posted on 08/06/2009 6:42:41 AM PDT by saminfl ( FUBO)
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To: yankeebulldog

I know we’re on the same team, so please forgive my frustration. I’m an 8 year infantry vet. I’ve lost 15 friends in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It’s frustrating. The USAF has never particularly liked the CAS role, and the Infantry always ends up paying the price. How many times has the USAF tried to can the A-10, the Infantry’s best friend? The Army literally begged the USAF for more UAVs, to no avail.

The previous poster was right - the fighter mafia had their chance and they blew it.

Maybe it’s time to move all CAS to the Army and let the USAF do their on thing.


21 posted on 08/06/2009 9:43:10 AM PDT by Terabitten (Vets wrote a blank check, payable to the Constitution, for an amount up to and including their life.)
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To: Republic

re: F22
Since the F22 is in production all is not lost since we have the design and some amount of manufacturing and support infrastructure. I’ll have to read more about the F22. I am ignorant of what the F22 can do that other planes can’t, and how those advantages benefit us in actual warfare as it’s waged today.


22 posted on 08/06/2009 10:08:24 AM PDT by frposty (I'm a simpleton)
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To: snowsislander
No. The left intends to destroy our military completely. How else can Hussein justify all the money, men, and materail He has pledged to put into His Civilian National Secrurity Force? Besides, He has a lot of sky blue shirts to buy from the Chinese.
23 posted on 08/07/2009 1:43:20 PM PDT by PIF
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To: nufsed

and Spads!


24 posted on 08/07/2009 1:51:05 PM PDT by PIF
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To: Nosterrex

“Obama and Congress are going to try and reduce the deficit spending on the backs of the military, but they will always need an army.”

Just not the current army...


25 posted on 08/07/2009 1:53:00 PM PDT by PIF
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To: frposty

“...in actual warfare as it’s waged today.”

It is not how actual warfare as it’s waged today, but how actual warfare as it’s waged tomorrow.


26 posted on 08/07/2009 1:56:30 PM PDT by PIF
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To: Leisler

Why, exactly, do you think we’ve gone up against “second rate armies”?

Because they were second-rate TO US.

You don’t get that way choosing pickups over Ferraris.

Ferraris like the F-16 and F-15.
And now the F-22 and F-35.

The A-10 has its place, but some of you really need to stop fixating on the big gun.


27 posted on 08/07/2009 1:56:46 PM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: saminfl

More fixation on the gun.

The F-35 will have speed, stealth (when slick) and a far better EO system than the A-10 will ever have.

Face it.
The A-10 is great for CAS, but isn’t capable of hanging with the big dogs in contested airspace.

The F-16 dropped far more ordnance in Iraq than the A-10 did. And dropped it closer and farther out.


28 posted on 08/07/2009 1:58:49 PM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: SJSAMPLE

Third and forth rate. Most of the people( worlds number one resource) and most of the wealth, albeit grossly mismanaged, lays in third world dumps. And that who we have and will continue to fight against.

The Army can deliver infantry in fighting vehicles, or duce’n halfs. It can deliver artillery by Blackhawks or trucks. Trucks are cheaper. Budgets are not unlimited. Conservation of money, and it’s efficient use is critical.

Much of the billions the Army spends upon helicopter CAS could be done cheaper by dedicated fixed wing. But neither bureaucracy seems willing. (Yeah, yeah, the Joints are victims of elderly legislation).

The Army does the same thing. Supposedly observing third world warfare for five decades, and having some experience with mines in Vietnam, the Army found its self with no MRAPs at all, even though they are multi generation experienced technology.

For the Navy it was not having a near shore force. Somehow all battles were to be in some vast open ocean space.

You can not tell me, that since WWII, in spite of near every war fought, the services haven’t been intellectually and thus materially captivated by ‘the big one’. A major war against a equal or superior foe.

No, zero, zip language, cultural skills at all. And all those relatively dirt cheap.


29 posted on 08/07/2009 2:08:16 PM PDT by Leisler
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To: SJSAMPLE

The F-16 dropped far more ordnance in Iraq than the A-10 did.
Duh, way more F-16’s. Right?

And dropped it closer and farther out.

Which service didn’t, well wouldn’t for a long time, up grade the A-10? It’s name escapes me.

Which aircraft had the lessor maintenance man hours and flight cost per sortie?( airframe/engin hours being equal and such )


30 posted on 08/07/2009 2:12:42 PM PDT by Leisler
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To: Leisler

Sure.
I was there on the West/East border in the late 1980s when The Wall came down.

It was our fixation on “The Big One” that gave us ALL the tools to defeat the second, third and fourth rate powers of the last thirty years. The same tools that we’re putting to good use in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Those IFVs weren’t designed for fighting the Taliban.
Those Blackhawks weren’t designed for Afghanistan, but they’ve proven invaluable.

Remember, losing The Big One was a game-stopper.
Struggling in LICs isn’t going to mean the death of the US, and we still have the time to develop and deploy MRAPs (albiet, at a real cost) and other systems in a fight that will be DECADES, across more than just Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Big One would have been THE “come as you are” war.
No time to bring in materials and reinforcements (regardless of what the NATO “pie in the sky” plans were).
No time to develop new systems.

We are far better off for looking forward and preparing for the greatest threat, than we would have been retooling for another Vietnam.


31 posted on 08/07/2009 2:17:50 PM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: SJSAMPLE

We should just buy off enemies, it would be cheaper than flying F-35’s against them.

I’m with putting the CAS in the Army. The Air Force other than justifying fighters isn’t interested as an institution other than using it as budge leverage.

Give them deep penetration, space and air space control.

The fighter guys should be happy because they can drop a lot of drag, weight and keep their chariots nice and air stripped sexy for..er...when ever.


32 posted on 08/07/2009 2:19:51 PM PDT by Leisler
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To: Leisler

I’m not saying the Air Force wasn’t dragging feet on the A-10.

I’m saying that constant reference to the A-10 are a non-starter, because it simply isn’t the most effective aircraft we have. Not by a long shot.

We use it in an explicit and limited role. Period.
It doesn’t go into unvetted and unattrited airspace.
It sure as hell doesn’t go alone if there’s enemy air or ADA.

Look at it for what it does and be happy, but also recognize its speed, range and deployment limitations.

Aircraft like the F-16 didn’t drop more ordnance simply because there were more of them. The did it because they got there FIRST, before A-10s were even allowed in the area and they got there faster and farther out. They also dropped their stuff A LOT more accurately. The deployment options for the F-16 and F/A-18 were simply much, much greater.

It’s a great thing that the A-10 “C” is finally getting a digital electronics and sensor suite. But all that stuff is still strapped to an aircraft that’s severely limited to its current role.


33 posted on 08/07/2009 2:24:36 PM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: SJSAMPLE

We could of defeated them with their weapons.

We keep fighting and dieing, and will so, in third world. That’s where the people and wealth are.

Poorly trained, poorly lead vs us poor languaged and poorly understanding the culture and languages. Then we get things like the capture of Baghdad and all the Pentagons Master’s and Doctoral degrees not having a clue what to do, and the Army having to dig up VIETNAM counter insurgency manuals.

But, good. We’re all done with being in third world places.

Now it’s paved roads, Cafes and enemy in snappy uniforms, right?


34 posted on 08/07/2009 2:26:45 PM PDT by Leisler
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To: frposty
What are fighter aircraft used for? Destroying targets on the ground and destroying other aircraft. How badly do we need fighters with more speed or more range or more ammo capacity?

You'll find out as soon as American bombers start getting shot from the sky by enemy 5th Generation fighter planes.The U.S. has had Air Superiority because we paid for it in cold hard cash.

Air Superiority is not Guaranteed to U.S. I would Rather pay for it in cash than in the blood of our Air or Ground Forces who come under attack from those enemy Air Craft once they win Air Superiority.

35 posted on 08/07/2009 2:27:43 PM PDT by puppypusher (The world is going to the Dogs.)
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To: SJSAMPLE

I thought the A-10 was for Soviet Armored columns? And they were to be with out ADA? Who knew?

Come on, the A-10 community is the red headed step child.
Last to get anything, and because it shows up late with little, it’s its fault.

I can see even in air uncontested enviroment, pressing down enemy with , relatively, more costly aircraft because you have many targets, distance and time problems. Once done, it doesn’t make sense to use up fighters dropping bombs on un air contested ground enemies.

I guess it is like the German that was captured in France and said of fighting Americans, ‘Now I know what it is like to fight a rich mans army.”


36 posted on 08/07/2009 2:38:37 PM PDT by Leisler
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To: puppypusher
"soon ...by enemy 5th Generation fighter planes"

Decades, not 'soon'.

Meanwhile first enlistment Americans will die for not having more basic weapons tailored to the war we have been fighting and will fight. The MRAPs for example. Having the Army use helicopters for CAS when safer fixed wings could take some burdens. We have and already pay in blood.

37 posted on 08/07/2009 2:42:59 PM PDT by Leisler
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To: PIF
That may be true, and that scares me. I suppose that if Obama had his wave it would composed entirely of gays and women.
38 posted on 08/07/2009 2:54:12 PM PDT by Nosterrex
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To: Leisler

Decades, not ‘soon’.

The Problem is The U.S. Really has NO idea what type of enemy aircraft we will face in the Immediate future anymore then we did when we found out the North Koreans had MIG 15’s after they shot the hell out of our B-29’s and Subsonic fighters of the era.


39 posted on 08/07/2009 3:09:19 PM PDT by puppypusher (The world is going to the Dogs.)
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To: SJSAMPLE

I haven’t heard of any contested airspace in Iraq or Afghanistan. I work with F-16, A-10 and F-15E pilots every day. I know what they drop and how they do it, Not a one of them is happy wih a hundred plus bullets for the F-35.


40 posted on 08/07/2009 3:15:18 PM PDT by saminfl ( FUBO)
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To: Nosterrex
Nah. For the dirty stuff He prefers union thugs who will be doing most of the work... at union prevailing wages per job type, of course. The others will be dedicated solely to lobbing Congress (gays and gals in the escort trades), and read the “Daily Officially Approved White House News” reports (either sex, as long as they are photogenic).
41 posted on 08/07/2009 3:40:44 PM PDT by PIF
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To: saminfl
No need to be concerned about bullet load. F35s, if they ever get into production, when airborne, will disappear in a SA 400 flash or go quickly to a Flanker missile from nowhere. They will go down with their full bullet load intact. Best keep them in the hanger for show and tell.
42 posted on 08/07/2009 3:45:42 PM PDT by PIF
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To: PIF
I think that you misunderstood what I was saying, or I didn't make myself clear. Those that are against Obamacare do not always attend the townhall meetings because they are organized to do so. I used myself as an example. I did not include those that were supporters of Obamacare. Obama’s staff has already stated that they are calling on the unions to infiltrate the townhall meetings.
43 posted on 08/07/2009 4:43:13 PM PDT by Nosterrex
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To: DeuceTraveler
This is a representation of the chickenhawk bureaucrats.
44 posted on 08/07/2009 4:44:09 PM PDT by myknowledge (F-22 Raptor: World's Largest Distributor of Sukhoi parts!)
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To: puppypusher

But this time, we’ll know that the Russkies, Chicoms or some other enemy in the future we’d face will be equipped with the latest Flankers and PAK FAs.


45 posted on 08/07/2009 4:46:50 PM PDT by myknowledge (F-22 Raptor: World's Largest Distributor of Sukhoi parts!)
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To: myknowledge

Yep. But we must accept high-risk encounters ie lots of downed planes and dead pilots. However, making an airforce on the cheap, means we will have to re-manufacture lots of cheaply made Sopwith Camels and Spads - Gates knows what he is doing, doesn’t he?

Those pesky Flankers, PACs, SA 400, and Anti-Access weapons will never be able to detect our new WWI airforce.

When it comes, if it ever does, perhaps we can have US pilots wave pictures of the still-to-be-produced F35s at the opposition - sure to strike fear in their evil hearts.


46 posted on 08/07/2009 5:03:57 PM PDT by PIF
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To: Excuse_My_Bellicosity; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...

Si vis pacem, para bellum.


47 posted on 08/07/2009 5:05:35 PM PDT by narses (http://www.theobamadisaster.com/)
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To: Nosterrex

Sorry you misunderstood the satire.


48 posted on 08/07/2009 5:09:44 PM PDT by PIF
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To: PIF
Because realistically, F-35s are too overengineered to be produced in bulk, unless aircraft industries outside the United States were selected to license build the F-35, like the UK's BAe Systems or Italy's Alenia Aeronautica. Those pesky Flankers, PACs, SA 400, and Anti-Access weapons will never be able to detect our new WWI airforce. Fighter pilots are a prized and precious commodity of any air force, and we need to make sure they are not needlessly sacrificed in action, because poorly skilled replacements will contribute to defeat, being unable to gain air superiority. It's the pilot who makes the difference, not just the plane, but how he/she handles it and exploits its strengths to the max. The Flankers, especially the new Su-35BM and lethal long range SAMs like the S-300 family make mincemeat out of legacy Gen 4 fighters. Truly, only the Raptor can defeat all these threats with comparative ease, and hold some ground of its own against the Gen 5 PAK FA. SecDef Robert Gates is the #1 Master Chickenhawk (shhhhhhhh)
49 posted on 08/07/2009 6:12:10 PM PDT by myknowledge (F-22 Raptor: World's Largest Distributor of Sukhoi parts!)
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To: Excuse_My_Bellicosity
Will the US Air Force be Annihilated in the Next War? USAF air superiority depends on this one fighter: The Raptor.
50 posted on 08/07/2009 6:27:07 PM PDT by myknowledge (F-22 Raptor: World's Largest Distributor of Sukhoi parts!)
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