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The Hiroshima Rorschach Test
WAll Street Journal ^ | August 6, 2009 | WARREN KOZAK

Posted on 08/06/2009 6:01:03 AM PDT by libstripper

On this day 64 years ago, an American B-29 named the Enola Gay dropped an atomic bomb over the city of Hiroshima. We know that as many as 80,000 Japanese died instantly. We know the city was pulverized, and we know that an estimated 100,000 additional people died later from radiation poisoning. We also are aware that the Hiroshima bomb, and the Nagasaki bomb dropped three days later, ushered in the atomic era.

At the time of the event, 85% of the American public favored dropping the atomic bombs, according to a Gallup poll (10% disapproved). Over the years, that attitude has changed. By 2005, Gallup found only 57% of Americans thought the bomb was necessary, while 38% disapproved. Most of those polled were born after the event.

(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Government
KEYWORDS: bomb; hiroshima; wwii
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Imperial Japan was a horrific mad dog entity that had to be stopped. Th Hiroshima bomb was a huge shock treatment that brought the Japanese to their senses and saved millions of lives, most of them Japanese.
1 posted on 08/06/2009 6:01:04 AM PDT by libstripper
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To: libstripper

“while 38% disapproved”

Easy to say now.


2 posted on 08/06/2009 6:02:47 AM PDT by traderrob6
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To: libstripper

Definitely was a game changer. We’d been fighting them long enough. The bomb closed the deal. Death is death. I don’t see how conventional bombs, artillary, or bullets are any different. War is hell. The object is to win.


3 posted on 08/06/2009 6:02:49 AM PDT by Huck ("He that lives on hope will die fasting"- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac)
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To: libstripper

A good number of those protesting the bomb being dropped probably wouldn’t be alive today because their grandparent would have been killed in the invasion of the Japanese home islands.


4 posted on 08/06/2009 6:05:06 AM PDT by mainepatsfan
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To: libstripper
The fact that the quick end to the war allowed the U.S. to avoid a land invasion of the Japanese mainland, thus saving many more lives, is quickly tossed aside by some critics. They say there is no basis for the estimates of large numbers of casualties.

Okinawa. That's all the basis you need to know that the land invasion of the Japanese mainland would have killed millions -- mostly Japanese.

We did the Japanese an enormous favor by nuking them.

5 posted on 08/06/2009 6:05:49 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy
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To: libstripper

The cities we bombed were also major industrial sites for the Japanese military.

Somehow, that part of the story is left out of the picture and the anti-Americans paint the picture of America attacking random towns where people were living and working happily.

They were building the machines that were killing Americans and our allies.


6 posted on 08/06/2009 6:07:12 AM PDT by Ghost of Philip Marlowe (It's soft tyranny, folks. It's smiley-faced fascism.)
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To: libstripper

Sad as it was, it happened at a time when we knew how to win wars and had the will to do so. It has not been that way since.


7 posted on 08/06/2009 6:07:33 AM PDT by umgud (Look to gov't to solve your everday problems and they'll control your everday life.)
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To: libstripper; Tijeras_Slim
Imperial Japan was a horrific mad dog entity that had to be stopped. The Hiroshima bomb was a huge shock treatment that brought the Japanese to their senses and saved millions of lives, most of them Japanese.

100% correct. BTTT.

8 posted on 08/06/2009 6:08:07 AM PDT by Constitution Day
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To: libstripper
I was born and raised in Los Alamos. They don't even have to ask me this question. My Rorschach just says “BANG!!!”.
9 posted on 08/06/2009 6:08:38 AM PDT by conservativeharleyguy (Democrats: Over 60 million fooled daily!)
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To: Constitution Day

Yup.


10 posted on 08/06/2009 6:10:55 AM PDT by Tijeras_Slim
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To: umgud
Sad as it was, it happened at a time when we knew how to win wars and had the will to do so. It has not been that way since.

AMEN ... well put

11 posted on 08/06/2009 6:11:46 AM PDT by TheRightGuy (I want MY BAILOUT ... a billion or two should do!)
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To: libstripper
A former G.I., now 90, who survived the war in Europe and was about to be sent to the Pacific understands quite clearly that the bomb saved his life. His grandchildren may see this event in a very different way.

Grandchildren, who likely never would have been born, but for Hiroshima.

12 posted on 08/06/2009 6:13:15 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (Don't anthropomorphize the robots. They hate that.)
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets
Kids today: no sense of our history, our struggles, or the harsh historical realities of the day.

It's easy to play monday morning quarterback when you are a soft, spoiled 19-yr-old on a college campus with your head full of anti-American propaganda.

13 posted on 08/06/2009 6:20:12 AM PDT by I Buried My Guns
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To: Huck
"I don’t see how conventional bombs, artillery, or bullets are any different. War is hell. The object is to win."

The difference is/was that launching an invasion on the Japanese home islands would have cost an estimated 500,000 American and allied lives. Dropping the bombs cost us ZERO American and allied lives.

The Japanese were warned 3 days in advance so they could evacuate the cities being targeted. They were warned of the destruction to come and chose to ignore that warning. They started the war and we ended it. I have absolutely zero problem with us using the bomb.

14 posted on 08/06/2009 6:23:12 AM PDT by 101voodoo
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To: libstripper

The firebombing of Tokyo by LeMay would kill almost as many people as the Hiroshima bomb. War is hell and whether burned by an A-Bomb or indendiary induced flames the death is horrible.


15 posted on 08/06/2009 6:27:31 AM PDT by Young Werther (Julius Caesar (Quae Cum Ita Sunt. Since these things are so.))
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To: mainepatsfan
A good number of those protesting the bomb being dropped probably wouldn’t be alive today because their grandparent would have been killed in the invasion of the Japanese home islands.

If your mother and father had never met, would you have been your mother's child or your father's child?

16 posted on 08/06/2009 6:30:08 AM PDT by HIDEK6
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To: Young Werther
Great point on firebombing. What the Allies did to Germany and Japan via firebombing certainly equals - perhaps surpasses the horror of the atomic weapons, but libs are myopic on the subject of atomic weaponry.
17 posted on 08/06/2009 6:38:02 AM PDT by Dansong
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To: traderrob6
Considering that estimates of over 1 million United States casualties were expected had we invaded Japan, I wonder how many of those who disapprove would be alive today?
18 posted on 08/06/2009 6:38:32 AM PDT by Northern Yankee (Freedom Needs A Soldier)
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To: 101voodoo

“The Japanese were warned 3 days in advance so they could evacuate the cities being targeted.”

Moreover, by firebombing 67 cities earlier, we’d already killed twice as many Japanese as were killed in the A-bomb attacks, yet they STILL hadn’t surrendered. We were prepared, if need be, to keep delivering A-bombs, roughly 3 a month through October, if need be, until the Japanese came to their senses. Fortunately it only took 2 bombs, but it’s pretty clear that in choosing this option, the US minimized the destruction of life on BOTH sides, not just among Allied combatants.

The USSR entered the war on August 9. What we’ll never know is whether the Japanese might have acceded to the Potsdam conditions for surrender prior to August 6 had the Soviets instead declared war on August 1, for example.


19 posted on 08/06/2009 6:38:38 AM PDT by DrC
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To: libstripper

I am reading a travel book in preparation for a trip to Japan.

The book only mentions Japan’s ‘entry’ into WWII.
After a passage that tells of bombing raids on Fukagawa: “When asked how they spent the return flights after raining death and unimaginable grief on tens of thousands of unprotected Japanese civilians, the American crews routinely described listening to jazz on the radio or handing around pornographic photographs as diversions.”

Not sure what this is supposed to tell me about Fukagawa.


20 posted on 08/06/2009 6:46:46 AM PDT by posterchild (Endowed by my Creator with certain unalienable rights.)
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To: traderrob6

Easier to say now when its not your family and friends going ashore on the islands of Japan.
Not to mention the brainwashing you get daily from the media.


21 posted on 08/06/2009 6:47:22 AM PDT by Little Ray (Do we have a Plan B?)
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To: Young Werther
Estimates of the number killed of the fire bombing of Tokyo range between 80,000 and 200,000, a higher death toll than that produced by the dropping of the Atomic Bomb on Hiroshima or Nagasaki six months later.

References: - Guillain, Robert, I Saw Tokyo Burning (1981); Werrell, Kenneth, Blankets of Fire: US. Bombers over Japan During World War II (1996).

Thought you'd like to know.

22 posted on 08/06/2009 6:47:55 AM PDT by Northern Yankee (Freedom Needs A Soldier)
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To: SkyDancer

Thought you’d find interesting.


23 posted on 08/06/2009 6:49:37 AM PDT by Northern Yankee (Freedom Needs A Soldier)
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To: libstripper
Worth re-reading every August 6th: The Moral Lessons of Hiroshima
24 posted on 08/06/2009 6:49:41 AM PDT by AustinBill (consequence is what makes our choices real)
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To: 101voodoo

Yeah, I get all that. I’m saying from a “moral” standpoint. It’s like the old Archie Bunker line when Gloria was complaining about “gun deaths.” He said “Would it make you feel any better, little girl, if they threw em out of windows?”


25 posted on 08/06/2009 6:52:32 AM PDT by Huck ("He that lives on hope will die fasting"- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac)
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To: Ghost of Philip Marlowe

“The cities we bombed were also major industrial sites for the Japanese military.

Somehow, that part of the story is left out of the picture and the anti-Americans paint the picture of America attacking random towns where people were living and working happily.

They were building the machines that were killing Americans and our allies.”

Hiroshima was an army and naval garrison, as well as an industrial base. The Nagasaki bomb exploded directly over the sprawling Mitsubishi armament works. One of the Nagasaki photographs that never gets displayed by the peaceniks is that of a Long Lance torpedo, laying in its cradle, surrounded by debris and bathed in sunshine inside the roofless Mitsubishi factory.


26 posted on 08/06/2009 6:56:15 AM PDT by Rinnwald (Pry my clunker out of my cold, dead fingers.)
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To: libstripper

I recall an article “Why We Dropped the Bomb” in Civilization magazine... stated that the Japanese envoy to the US was SHOWN a nuclear detonation in New Mexico. They phoned home to say “It is either a hoax or they can’t have any more, so continue the war”... not like they weren’t warned.


27 posted on 08/06/2009 6:58:27 AM PDT by SparkyBass
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To: libstripper; BlackElk; annalex; AnAmericanMother; Campion; DieHard the Hunter; dangus; madprof98; ..
Just for the sake of discussion, here's two moral statements from an interesting source: "Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes."

and

“Any act of war aimed at the indiscriminate destruction of cities or of extensive geographic areas together with their population, is a crime against God and against humanity itself. It is firmly and unequivocally condemned.”

These are not obscure sentences. I, for one, can find the subjects and verbs.

They share a rather "firm and unequivocating" tone because they come from the same source, "Gaudium et Spes," the Seconde Vatican Council's "Constitution on the Church in the Modern World."

The two statements, though they issue from a particular church of which you may or maynot be a member, are not exactly sectarian. They stem from one and the same moral principle, which is that you must not kill indiscriminately, nor target the innocent (the noncombatant, the civilian population, the child) for destruction.

And though applied to two different contexts, that single that moral principle comes from God, in His capacity as absolute moral lawgiver. The reference here is in the commandment prohibiting murder.

Of course, in the liberal universities --- especially the humanities departments --- you'll find few who believe in "absolute moral law," and most of the brainwashed in the Enemedia scoff at the very idea of "God". But for those of us who take God and moral law seriously --- well, there you are.

28 posted on 08/06/2009 7:09:10 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice. " GKC)
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To: libstripper
This is a tired argument...with only the "victims" of the bombing to count, the possible invasion victims are just numbers.

Those of us whose fathers and grandfathers were preparing for the invasion of Japan have our lives as proof it was right.

Thanks, Dad!

29 posted on 08/06/2009 7:12:37 AM PDT by BallyBill (Serial Hit-N-Run poster)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Last time I read the Old Testament, God didn’t have any problem with the destruction of entire cities, or even entire peoples and nations.
In any case, the “non-combatant” population may not be innocent. In Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, that was definitely the case. IMHO, in the war on the terror, the same thing applies; large parts of the population are not “innocent.”


30 posted on 08/06/2009 7:16:11 AM PDT by Little Ray (Do we have a Plan B?)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
I would respectfully argue that against an enemy that kills indiscriminately, it is immoral not to use drastic means to defeat that enemy.

After the Rape of Nanking, or the Holocaust in Europe, I think it was clear that Germany and Japan had to be stopped, and worrying about "the right way to wage war" was no longer a legitimate concern. Approaching their defeat by using half measures had become an immoral act in itself.

31 posted on 08/06/2009 7:20:03 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy
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To: Northern Yankee
I was an Air Force ROTC student in 1964. We discussed the bombings in class and considered the data that President truman was confronted with.

Rape of Nanking with over 100,000 civilians massacred

32 posted on 08/06/2009 7:20:29 AM PDT by Young Werther (Julius Caesar (Quae Cum Ita Sunt. Since these things are so.))
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To: Mrs. Don-o

What people often fail to realize (or at least admit) is there were very few (innocents) in Nazi Germany or Japan. They accepted and in most cases ideologically and materially supported the regimes that sought to commit genocide on many of the peoples of the world.


33 posted on 08/06/2009 7:21:18 AM PDT by traderrob6
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To: Mrs. Don-o

It’s a hard saying. Who can hear it?

Having a good reason, even a very good reason to do wrong does not transform a wrong into a right.

Of course, it is always an option to establish a “sliding scale” of right and wrong. I know how to do that. All of us do.


34 posted on 08/06/2009 7:23:03 AM PDT by don-o (My son, Ben - Marine PFC- 1/16/09 - Parris Island - LC -6/4/09 - 29 Palms - Camp Pendleton 6/18)
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To: ClearCase_guy
We did the Japanese an enormous favor by nuking them.

It was basically like successful electroshock therapy on an otherwise doomed patient, a hard cure with some costs, but tremendous benefits to the patient.

35 posted on 08/06/2009 7:27:14 AM PDT by libstripper (LWOP)
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To: Rinnwald

Another reason the bombs were so necessary was to secure the lives of the 25,000 Amerian POWs held by the Japanese and used for slave labor. My dad who was in the Bataan Death March among them.

see his obit: http://www.santafenewmexican.com/Local%20News/Francis-Hall-Van-Buskirk—1921-2008-After-Bataan—survivor-embr

and their use as slaves: http://www.rense.com/general8/pows.htm

To a man (and woman) they believed if not for the bomb those still living would have died (almost 50 percent from Bataan did anyway).

My Dad’s story of the day after surrender, they knew something was up, the prison guards started leaving and they brought out the redcross packages they had never distributed. The prisoners had been hearing stories, but didn’t know what to believe. It was a few days (almost a week) before any allied troop contract was made. Throughout this hellhole of a four year ordeal, they maintained camp order, followed their officers, cared for their sick, and buried their buddies.

U.S. treaty ending the war prevented the POWs from suing the Japanese companies that they were slaves for.

I have often flew over Tinian and looked down at the old airfield and thanked god for the Enola Gay. In a real sense that is my birthplace. I live but a few miles from the airship at Dulles and to this day have not been able to visit for the emotions it would bring up in me. The Enola Gay was my dad’s angel (and my stork). He is my Hero.

Incidently his first name, Francis,(my middle name), comes as direct descendents from Captain Henry Francis, of the Virginia Militia died at the Battle of Shallow Ford in the Revolutionary War.

Some of us Americans have been at the side of Lady Liberty with our swords drawn for many generations.

The Big Boo
Gary Francis Van Buskirk


36 posted on 08/06/2009 7:30:12 AM PDT by The Big Boo
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To: Mrs. Don-o
“Any act of war aimed at the indiscriminate destruction of cities or of extensive geographic areas together with their population, is a crime against God and against humanity itself. It is firmly and unequivocally condemned.”

Quite true, but inapplicable here.

The targets were not indiscriminate (the cities contained war production factories and were selected for that reason), the civilian population was warned, and the alternative was the deaths of probably nearly a million Americans plus even more Japanese in a mainland invasion. The Japanese had already demonstrated that the "civilian" population was willing to fight to the death and commit mass suicide rather than surrender. Truman's alternatives were a lot of deaths, or a hell of a lot more deaths.

My father in law was already there (he had survived Guadalcanal and Iwo, where he went in on the second day) and his orders were cut for the mainland invasion. My father was on his way there as he had received his orders to embark for the Pacific from Italy.

Not to mention that the Japanese were the aggressors.

I just don't see it. Can you elaborate on your position?

37 posted on 08/06/2009 7:34:57 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: libstripper

I wrote this essay in response to another decrying the use of the “Bomb.”

A Counter Reflection on General Tibbet’s Death and the A Bomb

I read Chris Check’s reflections on the death of BG Paul Tibbets with great interest. Most historians believe that Tibbet’s role in the atom bombing of Hiroshima was the precipitate cause of the conclusion of the greatest man made disaster in all of human history since the fall, the Second World War. Mr. Check expresses reservations as to the necessity of this action, indeed whether or not the theory, practice and technology of modern warfare allows any war to be prosecuted in accordance with just war theory. Mr. Check does not seem to fall into the camp of those historical revisionists who make suspect claims of an imminent Japanese surrender which negated the rationale for using the A-Bomb. Instead he offers a pointed criticism of the fact that the Bomb was even employed and a concomitant reappraisal of Gen. Tibbet’s role on that historic mission.

The vital works of the great philosophers Cicero, Aristotle, Augustine of Hippo, St. Thomas Aqinas, or Hugo Grotious attempted to codify the requirements for just war. These men spoke to the notion that any war, or acts performed pursuant to it, must conform to certain principles which would allow the waging of war within a synthesis of classical Greco-Roman, as well as Christian, values. Just war theory can be meaningfully divided into three parts, which in the literature are referred to, for the sake of convenience, in Latin. These parts are: 1) jus ad bellum, which concerns the justice of resorting to war in the first place; 2) jus in bello, which concerns the justice of conduct within war, after it has begun; and 3) jus post bellum, which concerns the justice of peace agreements and the termination phase of war. I wish to examine Mr. Check’s premise concerning Gen Tibbets and the Hiroshima A Bomb. in light of all three of these just war considerations.
1. Jus ad bellum: The US was negotiating in good faith with Japanese diplomatic envoys for a peaceful resolution to the crisis occasioned by the Japanese occupation of French Indohina and FDR’s subsequent oil embargo right up to the moment Japanese naval aircraft bombed Pearl Harbor. This despite US expectations of an imminent attack by Japan on the US sphere of influence, most notably the Phillipines. The deaths and wounding of almost 3600 Americans, and the destruction of 6 battleships, 3 destroyers, 3 cruisers, hundreds of aircraft and port facilities amply satisfied the justification for a recognition of the state of war existing between the US and Japan. President Roosevelt’s ringing speech to Congress requesting a declaration of war promised that the US would “win through to inevitable triumph, so help us God.” Germany’s declaration of war on the US followed three days later. There is little doubt that the Jus ad bellum consideration was met.
2. Jus in bello: This aspect of the just war principle is the most problematic for those such as myself who defend the use of the A Bomb. It is an inherently monstrous act to use a weapon of the indiscriminate nature of the Hiroshima A Bomb on a target peopled largely by civillians, thereby violating the subsidiary rules of discrimination, porportionality, and minimum force. But we are not about to revert to conducting war with serried ranks of Phalanxes drawn up against each other with no civillians in sight. No side will yield the percieved advantage of technology. “End justifies the means” arguments are also singularly unpersuasive to me. Notwithstanding that we can acknowledge, for instance that a discussion of the abortion evil should allow for the admitttedly rare “physical life of the mother” exception. Commensurately an argument can be made for the unique qualities of the Second World War as an exception to the discrimination and minimum force rule if not the porportionality argument. Any study of this issue must include context. That context was total war against an unrelenting foe whose national character and policies contributed to a racially tinged (on both sides) struggle of the utmost savagery. The slaughter and barbarity of the Pacific war was enhanced by the Japanese refusal to contemplate the shameful reality of surrender no matter how hopeless the situation, and their near total disregard for the accepted conventions of legal conduct in war. I think that I can show that a greater evil would have been done by allowing the continuation of that war rather than to shock the Japanese people into an abrupt surrender by the use of nuclear weapons.
The invasion of Japan was in the offing. At the Potsdam Conference of 24 July 1945, the Allied position was that the ‘Japanese forces would be disarmed’ Japanese sovereignty would be limited to the four main islands of Japan ‘and such minor islands as we shall determine’ and ‘respect for fundamental human rights’ would be established. The message ended with this: ‘We call upon the Government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all the Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The aternative for Japan is complete and utter destruction.’
The implementation of these publically stated objectives required the complete defeat of Japan and it’s occupation. The militarists controlling Japan were determined to resist even unto the destruction of Japan. Prime Minister Suzuki Kantaro was willing to negotiate peace thru Switzerland or the Soviet Union, but War Minister Anami Korechika and the Chiefs of Staff Gen. Umeza Yoshijiro and Adm Toyoda Soemu insisted on ‘ prosecuting the war to the bitter end in order to uphold our national essence, protect the imperial land and (incredibly) achieve our goals of conquest’. The Japanese correctly deduced the objectives of Operation Downfall, the proposed US invasion scheme which was divided into two phases, Olympic, the invasion of Kyushu and Coronet, the invasion of the main island of Honshu. Accordingly the Japanese prepared Operation Decision (Ketsu-Go) which envisaged the deployment of over 2 million troops along the coast to repel Allied landings, to be reinforced by four million armed forces civillian employees and a civillian militia of old people, school children of both sexes numbering 28 million. An invasion of Japan would have been D-day magnified a thousand times, it would have been Stalingrad from the sea. For instance, The 2nd Marine Division was slated to be in the initial assault. It no longer appears in the plans for Operation Olympic after D-Day + 4. The assumption is that it would have ceased to exist or be combat ineffective. Other units are similarly omitted.
An actual model exists for such speculation, the Battle for Okinowa. Pre invasion Okinowa was populated by 574,368 Okinowans.. Take a trip to Okinawa and visit Peace Prayer Park. It’s easy to find. It is right next to the Suicide Cliffs just down the road a ways from the Japanese Naval Underground Headquarters. There you will see the names of 200,656 men women and children inscribed on black marble slabs who died on that island in the last battle of World War II. Those slabs reveal the following death toll: Japanese 188,136
From other prefectures (soldiers and civilian employees) 65,908
From Okinawa (soldiers and civilian employees) 28,228
From Okinawa (civilians fighting in battles) 56,861
From Okinawa (non-fighting civilians) 37,139
Americans 12,520
Following the battle there was not one thing on the island growing or man-made that was over 24 inches high. The entire population of the island was 574,368 and there were 4.72 artillery shells fired per person during the battle. The land war on Okinawa was soul destroying brutal as American soldiers and Marines doggedly attempted to break the ferocious Japanese resistance. Names like Sugar Loaf and Kakazu Ridge still invoke nightmarish memories from Okinawa veterans. The US Navy suffered the worst pounding in its history, with over 5000 sailors killed and 35 ships sunk by Kamikaze attack.
People extrapolate from 48,000 American and 230,000 Japanese casualties at Okinawa to 500,000 American and millions of Japanese casualties for mainland invasions. Those estimates could have vastly understated the actual causalities. Japan’s 374,000 mountainous square miles mathematically enables over 500 defensive redoubts comparable to General Ushijima’s formidable Okinawa constructions such as those on the Shuri line that inflicted most Okinawa losses. The War Faction adopted the motto of “100 million Japanese deaths” for planning final mainland battles. Besides kamikazes, redeployed Kwantung divisions, and bamboo spears for civilians, the allies faced biological warfare. Occupation searchers uncovered large stockpiles of viruses, spirochetes, and fungus spores throughout rural Japan. One delivery plan directed Japanese to infect themselves and then surrender. The “Greatest Generation” and their parents would have been enraged to discover a political cabal who satisfied their moral orthodoxy by condemning over 500,000 Americans who might otherwise have been saved.
Hiroshima was a target with military value. It was headquarters for the 2nd Japanese Army, charged with the defense of the southern island of Kyushu, the objective of Operation Olympic, whom the United States would have been fighting had the invasion commenced. It also had numerous factories producing military goods. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops. Both Command & Control and military production facilities are legitimate military targets.
Other consequences of other than a rapid end to the war were the slow starvation of the Japanese people. Their island nation’s food supplying merchant fleet was at the bottom of the Pacific, with 5 million tons of it put there by the extraordinarily successful American submarine campaign. In the summer of 1945 Field Marshal Terauchi had openly ordered prison camp commanders to slaughter the Allied prisoners in their control (who were dying at a 33% death rate) at the onset of the invasion. The brutal Japanese occupations of the conquered Asian nations were killing tens of thousands of civilians a month in China, Malaysia, Burma, Singapore, the Solomons, Thailand, and anywhere that the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere sent its soldiers, inflamed by the Japanese militarist’s corrupted code of Bushido to rape, pillage and kill without mercy. Millions of Asian civilians were killed and others in China served as guinea pigs for Unit 731’s depraved medical experimentations into human vivisection, disease infestation and other atrocities more horrifying than the vilest of Josef Mengele’s worst inspirations. Japanese scientists performed tests on prisoners centering on the plague, cholera, smallpox, botulism and other diseases. This research led to the development of the defoliation bacilli bomb and the flea bomb used to spread the bubonic plague. Some of these bombs were designed with ceramic (porcelain) shells, an idea proposed by Shiro Ishii in 1938.
These bombs enabled Japanese soldiers to launch biological attacks, infecting agriculture, reservoirs, wells and other areas with anthrax, plague-carrying fleas, typhoid, dysentery, cholera and other deadly pathogens.
Additionally, infected food supplies and clothing were dropped by planes into areas of China not occupied by Japanese forces. These activities continued until war’s end.

The Japanese had concocted a plan to launch M6A1 Seiran floatplane bombers from their huge I-400 class subs to drop bombs loaded with biological agents such as plaque and Anthrax on the West Coast of the US. The ships had sailed with a target date of 15 August 1945. Only the end of the war on 14 August occasioned their recall before they reached landfall.
In the afternoon of August 14, Japanese radio announced that an Imperial Proclamation was soon to be made, accepting the terms of unconditional surrender drawn up at the Potsdam Conference. That proclamation had already been recorded by the emperor. The news did not go over well, as more than 1,000 Japanese soldiers stormed the Imperial Palace in an attempt to find the proclamation and prevent its being transmitted to the Allies. Soldiers still loyal to Emperor Hirohito repulsed the attackers.
That evening, General Anami, the member of the War Council most adamant against surrender, committed suicide. His reason: to atone for the Japanese army’s defeat, and to be spared having to hear his emperor speak the words of surrender.

Foreign minister Shidehara wrote, “If we continue to fight back bravely, even if hundreds of thousands of noncombatants are killed... there would be room to produce a more favorable international situation for Japan.”

“Due to the nationwide food shortage... - it will be necessary to kill all of the infirm old people, the very young, and the sick.

Admiral Onishi: “If we are prepared to sacrifice 20 million Japanese lives in kamikaze effort, victory will be ours.”

“With luck, we will repulse the invaders before they land.” - General Yoshijiro Umezu

“Who can be 100% sure of defeat?” - War minister General Anami

All said in the August 9th meeting of the 6 man ‘Supreme Council for the Direction of the War’ held in Tokyo. I would ask that you carefully consider the date as you ponder the Japanese willingness to surrender.
Another item for your consideration: The bomb also stopped Soviet expansion in Asia. The U.S.S.R. declared war on Japan on August 8 and if the war had continued the U.S.S.R. would have invaded and occupied large parts of northern China and northern Japan. The U.S.S.R would have had a presence in the Far East as in Eastern Europe.
As it was, the Soviets occupied North Korea and set up a Stalinist regime that troubles the world to this day. Imagine the Soviets with a Stalinist puppet government in Northern Japan. You don’t have to wonder, you have the examples of East Germany, or North Korea, as opposed to West Germany and South Korea.
This certainly cannot be attributed to the foresight of the Allies, as the Soviets entered the war against Japan in response to the Allies importuning Stalin at Yalta. It was about the only commitment he kept, since he saw an opportunity for territorial aggrandizement. But it is an admittedly unforeseen and fortunate subsidiary result of the rapid end of the war.
The world was spared the future horror of nuclear combat thru the instructive example of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Had the wartime use of nuclear weapons remained theoretical, rather than concretely manifest in the vaporized victims of World War II, it is far more likely that they would have been used in super power showdowns at the Berlin Wall or the Cuban Missile Crisis. The example of the relative firecrackers of the WWII A-bombs may have stayed the fingers on the thermonuclear button. The planners of the Manhattan Project did not consider this , but it is something worthy of our consideration.

The extraordinary nature of the war against Japan requires that the jus en bello aspect of just war theory be considered in light of the extraordinary evils that were stopped or prevented by a sudden end to the war, bought about by the A Bomb. The Japanese could view it as a force of nature against which they were helpless to resist, and therefore serve as a legitimate rationale for surrender for a people that viewed that as an absolute disgrace. At the very least, the proportionality rule seems to be honored by using a horrendous method for the purpose of forcing an end to the war and stopping even greater continued slaughter and atrocity.
3, Jus post bello: Despite the unremitting nature of the total war against Japan and the unparallelled level of atrocities committed by Japan, it was not transformed into a post Punic Wars Carthage. The US extended it’s protections to her against the Soviet Union, demilitarized her, helped it to create a classically liberal representative democracy, with the emperor Hirohito demoted from demigod status. The US was instrumental in elevating Japan into a rehabilitated and respected player on the world stage, a leader in technological innovation and manufacture and a reliable ally against Soviet expansion in the Pacific. Even though considerable US self interest was involved, the US occupation of Japan was conducted with a magnanimity uncharacteristic of the likely aftermath of one of the most savage conflicts in human history. Even though the Japanese surrendered unconditionally, utterly defeated; they are a better world partner for the effect of the generous American peace terms and post war assistance. The Jus post bello criteria was more that adequately satisfied by the exemplary American post war treatment of Japan.
Finally, a word about Gen Tibbets. Before his service in the Pacific, Gen. Tibbets served with the 97th Bomb Group of the 8th Air Force. The 97th BG served as the model for the famous movie Twelve O’ Clock High. Tibbets, as a Major left in charge of the Group, was even depicted in the movie. Armstrong, the new CO of the 97th, appointed Tibbets his XO. He flew a B-17 bomber on 25 combat missions in the most deadly environment that American airmen have ever flown in, the flak and fighter filled skies of the European Theatre of Operations. He later took command of the 509th Composite Bomb Group, the B-29 outfit charged to deliver the atomic bombs. He bought the unit to a peak of efficiency and operational security, vital to maintaining the secrecy of the most important military technological development of the war. He stayed in the Air Force, and participated in the development of the B-47, our first all-jet bomber. In the early 1950’s, he flew B-47’s for three years. He advised on the making of the movie “Above and Beyond,” and was pleased that the famous actor, Robert Taylor, played him. From the 1950’s through the 1960’s he had a number of overseas assignments, including France and India. After his retirement from the Air Force, he became president of Executive Jet Aviation in Columbus, Ohio. For this he has earned the eternal respect and gratitude of his nation. He has not chosen to engage in post modern self flagellation and wear the hair shirt of eternal regret for doing his duty as it was presented to him. He has chosen to accept as his legacy the war ended and the lives saved by his actions rather than fixating on the awful human cost of the bombing. He had earned that right a hundred times over. He has said that he does not want a marker on his grave lest it serve as a focal point for demonstrators. That is the only thing that I disagree with him about. He deserves the honor of a proper memorial so that it may be rendered honors on appropriate occasions. Godspeed to you sir. You served your country and the world well.


38 posted on 08/06/2009 7:41:00 AM PDT by DMZFrank
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To: The Big Boo
God bless your dad.

You have even more reason than I do to be thankful for the Enola Gay.

39 posted on 08/06/2009 7:45:03 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: DMZFrank

Thanks!
Made a copy and saved it for my kids when the commie-dominated education establishment tries to poison their minds.


40 posted on 08/06/2009 7:49:03 AM PDT by Little Ray (Do we have a Plan B?)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Well, the Church has the luxury of taking such a position. They don’t have to defend themselves. As far as I can tell, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not indiscriminate. They were intentional. The enemy was warned. As for the commandments, Jesus did die for a reason, didn’t He?


41 posted on 08/06/2009 7:50:20 AM PDT by Huck ("He that lives on hope will die fasting"- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac)
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To: libstripper
It should be common sense to conclude that a full scale invasion of a heavily armed, urbanized country would result in the deaths of considerably more civilians than two strategically dropped atomic bombs. Unfortunately, many people are delusional or not quite bright.

The bombs SAVED lives, American AND Japanese.

42 posted on 08/06/2009 7:52:15 AM PDT by Clemenza (Remember our Korean War Veterans)
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To: libstripper
Little Boy Boogie:

Wake up, Little Boy.
No, it's not for tests or school.
It's a lovely day to laugh and play,
and dance in the dust of Tehran.

Come on, sleepy head,
It's been such a long long while,
That the world's almost forgotten
The brilliance of your smile.

Let's fly on to Mecca,
We'll go skipping cross the dunes.
We'll have such fun, we'll outshine the Sun,
And shout echoes off the Moon.

My bright shining boyo,
You've been sleeping far too long.
Time to climb from your deep deep bed,
And sing your happy song.

Come open your present,
Take a look what you just got:
A brand new cobalt jacket!
Man, I tell you these are hot.

Little Boy, time to go now;
Bring your friend the Fat Man too.
We'll have such fun, we'll outshine the Sun,
And dance in the dust of Tehran.

Original by “NOOdleNogg1n” (FreeRepublic)
17 Sept 01

Adapted by BlueLancer (FreeRepublic)
6 Aug 09

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


RESISTOR

Swear allegiance to the flag, whatever flag they offer;
Never hint at what you really feel.
Teach the children quietly for, someday, sons and daughters
Will rise up and fight while we stood still.

Der Elite Møøsënspåånkængrüppen ØberKømmändø (EMØØK)

43 posted on 08/06/2009 8:01:51 AM PDT by BlueLancer (I'm getting a fine tootsy-frootsying right here...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

My take is it was either invade the Islands and lose 500,000 or more troops and STILL kill possibly as many or more civilians, albeit over a longer period of time. save the lives of our boys and wrap the killing up quickly. After all 200,000 dead is 200,000 dead whether it be in 2 days or 2000 days.

Besides the Japanese were warned in advance to get the people OUT of the cities. Even after the Hiroshima bombing they STILL wouldn’t even evacuate Nagasaki.

Given the circumstances surrounding the war. I put the responsibility for the deaths of their people on the Japanese themselves.


44 posted on 08/06/2009 8:05:55 AM PDT by 101voodoo
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To: AnAmericanMother; don-o
This isn't quite fair on my part, because I'm out the door here, for four days, going to a Shape Note Singing gathering (Camp DoReMi at Little Switzerland NC, AnAmericanMother!) and so: folks who believe in that Moral Absolute thingie, defend the relevant points --- and of course, those who don't, don't.

To be quick, Hiroshima certainly had many legitimate military targets, all of which could have been justifiably smashed into smithereens; but the offensive fact is that the atomic bomb was not "targeted" on the military targets, it was intrinsically and intentionally indiscriminate.

Second, it is true that the Japanese military leaders were intentional massive aggressors. However the ordinary people of Hiroshima were noncombatants. In any society, the gardener gardens. The mother mothers. The just man, as Hopkins says, justices.

The point of the prohibition of the targeting of civilians, or the intentionaly indiscriminate destruction of a city as target (city=target bombing) is that even in war this is not permitted.

Utilitarianism and Consequentialism fail as moral theories, because (1)one can never be morally cetain of consequences, (2) no calculus can tot up the consequences which spread globally, and for generations; and (3) you cannot be morally reponsible for consequences generated by the free choices of others.

If I were to post exactly the same message on DailyKos or Democratic Underground, I daresay I would get a whole lot of opposition to the first part

("Abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes")

but using curiously similar arguments: (1) there are no moral absolutes, (2) the ultimate consequences of millions of unwanted childbirths far outweigh the problem of killing innocent human beings, (3) fetuses are not innocent human beings; and (4)to hell with the Catholic Church.

If the intentional killing of tens of thousands of civilians does not count as murder, it is hard to maintain with a straight face that the commandment aganst murder actually prohibits anything at all, if you've got a "good enough reason."

In four days, I shall return to revisit the discussion. Carry on! BTW, here's something from Prison Fellowship/Breakpoint -- a source respectd by many Evangelicals, as well as by me --- which makes some points worth thinking about.

45 posted on 08/06/2009 8:07:28 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice. " GKC)
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To: Ghost of Philip Marlowe
The cities we bombed were also major industrial sites for the Japanese military.

And the casualty rates, as fearsome as they were, paled in comparison to the casualties inflicted by more conventional incindiary bombing already done. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen as targets for the A-bomb because they were of military importance and were as yet relatively untouched by that bombing campaign, so they would yield more valid bomb damage assessments as well.

It was the 'shock and awe' of the damage being done by a single bomb on each city which was the game changer.

46 posted on 08/06/2009 8:17:42 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: libstripper

It is easy for those today to think differently than those in 1945. In 1945 the world knew what war meant and it was the killing of their family, friends, and countrymen. It took day and night to manufacture the goods required to win a war.

Today, they think we could have just dropped a JDAM or used a laser to stop the war. Very few people even know when WWII was or what weapons were in use at the time. Ignorance is not bliss, it is devastating.


47 posted on 08/06/2009 8:19:27 AM PDT by CodeToad (If it weren't for physics and law enforcement I'd be unstoppable!)
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To: traderrob6
What people often fail to realize (or at least admit) is there were very few (innocents) in Nazi Germany or Japan. They accepted and in most cases ideologically and materially supported the regimes that sought to commit genocide on many of the peoples of the world.

Keep in mind that those citizens were as programmed as someone who only gets their information from the MSM, without internet access, nor opposition.

Many of the citizens had been raised from childhood to believe what they were doing was a moral right, the destiny of their people, a way to right historical wrongs, and eliminate their longstanding enemies.

To speak out against what was being done would guarantee a 'knock on the door' in the wee hours and was unthinkable.

If that sounds familliar, so be it.

I think we were absolutely justified in dropping the A-bomb, and can figure that though the effects were horrific, anything less would not have been as effective and would have cost many more lives--on both sides.

48 posted on 08/06/2009 8:31:46 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
In the case of an ordinary city and an ordinary government, you would have a point, but as I noted above the Japanese government had turned so-called "civilians" into combatants. They were issuing bamboo spears to women and little children, calling on everyone to fight to the death, and we already had proof of this -- the civilian population of Okinawa died almost to the last man, including the women, the elderly, and little children.

Of course our own prisoners of war were at risk also, not just "civilians", and numbers of them were killed, in some cases because the Japanese deliberately placed them in harm's way. Not to mention the Japanese using them for medical 'experiments', torture, starvation, beheadings, and so forth.

I think you were dealing with an inhuman and evil foe that was willing to die to the last man, woman and child. Unfortunately the civilians acquiesced in this situation and not only worked in the war factories but had demonstrated that they were not truly civilians but also combatants. The gardeners, mothers and any just men who had managed to survive were diverted from their vocations to become soldiers.

Faced with that sort of situation, it becomes a question of do you kill many, or do you kill them all? I'm not sure that 'just war' theory can be considered without taking into account the complete abandonment of all human norms by the Japanese.

Have fun at the shape-note singing!

49 posted on 08/06/2009 8:40:39 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Smokin' Joe

Is that an excuse?


50 posted on 08/06/2009 8:46:53 AM PDT by traderrob6
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