The Untimely Demise of the F-22

Weekly Standard ^ | August 17, 2009 | Michael Goldfarb

[WhiteCastle]

After the Senate vote, General Peter Pawling, who moved to the staff of U.S. Pacific Command earlier this year after serving as commander of the Hawaii Air National Guard's 154th Wing, told Aviation Week's David Fulghum that he was "still planning on getting those airplanes." "There is nothing out there that can fly against it," Pawling said. "If we had a major conflict [against someone with advanced air defenses], I can't imagine going in there with anything but an F-22."

Indeed, that same day Fulghum quoted another Air Force official, this one identified only as a "senior intelligence officer." "The F-35 is not an F‑22 by a long shot," he told Fulghum, "there's no way it's going to penetrate Chinese Air Defenses if there's ever a clash." Concerns about the F-35's ability to penetrate sophisticated air defenses center on doubts about just how stealthy the plane will be. A study published earlier this year by Air Power Australia (Australia is one of the F-35 partner countries) concluded that the Joint Strike Fighter is "demonstrably not a true stealth aircraft in the sense of designs like the F-117A, B-2A, and F-22A." The F-22 can also fly higher, faster, and farther than the F-35 and all while carrying twice as many air-to-air weapons in stealth mode.

[Frantzie]

The American public elected a Islamo_Marxist who wants to destroy the country. A country that is going broke. We do not need top of the line fighters or NASA because we are heading to third world status.

Blame members of the public who are more concerned with college ball games and other nonsense as they head towards serfdom. Until you get 50,000 members of the military and a decent lawyer in a lwsuit asking for the BC - then you are headed towards serfdom.

What really sucks is our soldiers are getting killed in an Afghan circle jerk while muslims flood into America. Just like Rome in the final years. Afghanistan has been like that for 1,000 + years. Nothing is going to change.

[GBA]

The Predator works "just fine" b/c there aren't air and ground defenses to shoot it down. It roams freely with little or no threats to consider.

You and others who feel as you do put too much faith in technology and too little in humans and history.

When the F-4 was designed, it was designed without a gun b/c "the experts" knew modern missiles made dogfighting and a gun obsolete. In actual combat, those "experts" quickly learned the folly of their beliefs and their trust in technology at the cost of our pilots.

Drones are a reality and will do more and more in combat, but only the foolish and the fearful believe they are invincible or will replace piloted fighters and bombers.

"The more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."

[flowerplough]

The Untimely Demise of the F-22, and the unfortunate still-birth of the F-35? But, in the long run, both are too expensive to build, and too pilot-limited in their performance. I’d guess that both will be convertible to an optional unmanned/drone config sometime soon.

[Sequoyah101]

I knew the Super Hornet was being offered to others but what I have read (including the article referenced in this thread) says that Lockheed is pushing the F-35 at the expense of the F-22 because it is more profitable and will push Boeing (1/3 participant in the F-22) out of the fighter business completely. That doesn’t sound like the F-18 line is going to continue much longer.

The Silent Eagle is being offered as well as the F-18 upgrade but these are workhorses and not fifth gen air superiority fighters. The Australian study is not very complimentary of the F-35 in many roles.

I sand to be corrected but the line for F-18 seems short lived and even at that it doesn’t seem the acquisition program paces the attrition and deterioration pace. The position I take is only opinioneering though.

[Sigurdrifta]

Where did Gates say that (not questioning you, it’s just that my son is one of those AF pilots who will I guess have to “get used to accepting mid to high risk environments)?

If he said it, Gates is a m***-***ing SOB.

[SJSAMPLE]

With the F-35s open issues (cost, REAL stealth characteristics), Boeing continues to offer the F/A-18E/F to both partner nations and those not allowed to buy the F-35.

Australia is giving serious thought to the Super Hornet, as is the British navy, given JSF cost overruns and other tech issues.

India is looking at the F/A-18, as well.

I think they’ve still got a market, especially with even more upgrades.

[SZonian]

"...Lockheed is pushing the F-35 at the expense of the F-22..."

Not true, Lockheed quit fighting for the F22 because they were not gaining any ground with the gov't and the Secy. of Defense and decided to move those resources to selling the F-35 to other customers/countries. They would have loved to have kept that line open and to open the JSF line.

Boeing being pushed out of the fighter business? They did that to themselves. They couldn't even get a grotesquely looking prototype JSF into the air without removing hundreds of pounds of external components and were using basically the same technology for STOVL capabilities. You are aware are you not that Lockheed is not the sole contractor on the JSF? There are other large aerospace contractors involved.

What information is Australia using to base their "less than complimentary assessments" on? They don't even have an aircraft to evaluate. Let's reserve judgement until the actual Flight Testing with actual aircraft gets into full swing and we start seeing what the aircraft is truly capable of before casting aspersions without facts.

SZ

[PIF]

I do not remember but it was not all that long ago - maybe search FR for F22 - might be in one of those stories or links to other articles.

Search and you will find.

Yes Sec Gates is as you say a “m***-***ing SOB” much like the other Gates (the ‘professor’).

I think Bush picked him knowing he was bad, but not as bad as someone else Hussein might choose on his own, if he, Bush, had picked a good guy.

Clearly Gates is doing what Hussein wants - shutting down the USAF, in preparation to eliminating the entire US Mil - Hussein must, if he is to fulfill his campaign promises to create a Civilian National Security Force equal to the current US mil, and to unilaterally disarm.

[PIF]

Also correctly stated your son will have to accept orders from the USAF Brass to fly in such envirnoments - it was to the Pentagon and USAF Brass Gates was speaking to when he made that statement.

[A.A. Cunningham]

"there's no way it's going to penetrate Chinese Air Defenses if there's ever a clash."

And neither will the F-22 unless it's provided SEAD by one of these:

[OA5599]

The B-1’s usefulness came into question when Soviet aircraft radar was discovered to be more sophisticated and effictive in the “look down” role. It was capable of detecting the B-1, so the “fast and low” approach was deemed to be ineffective.

B-1 that Carter killed was the mach 2+ high altitude B-1A. When Reagan brought it back in the 80s, it was the stealthier mach 1+ low altitude B-1B. The B model ditched the variable geometry engine inlets necessary to approach and exceed mach 2, in favor of fixed inlets with a much smaller radar return.

[OA5599]

When the F-4 was designed, it was designed without a gun b/c "the experts" knew modern missiles made dogfighting and a gun obsolete. In actual combat, those "experts" quickly learned the folly of their beliefs and their trust in technology at the cost of our pilots.

It's worse than that. The experts were more or less correct, maybe a little ahead of their time. But it was those who set policy that killed those pilots. The F-4 was designed for BVR combat, but rules of engagement during Vietnam prevented BVR engagements.

[Mogollon]

Sarah will bring the F-22 back in 2013.

[A.A. Cunningham]

There’s that little detail about the success rate of the IR Sidewinder compared to the RADAR Sparrow.

[myknowledge]

My country's RAAF would like Raptors.

[myknowledge]

I'd go for Top Guns rather than game freak drone controllers.

[myknowledge]

Unfortunately, those kind of SEAD aircraft are easy meat on the table for the S-300 family of SAMs procured by Russia, China, Iran and any other country with the hard cash to pay for them. An IADS laced with S-300 (SA-20), S-400 (SA-21) and other double-digit SAMs is a virtual brick wall, and the radar sets guiding their missiles have an awful lot of jam resistance, and even home-on-jam mode (i.e. turning the EW aircraft into a homing beacon). Furthermore, the SAM systems are mobile because they are mounted on wheeled vehicles instead of pedestals. This is because Russian SAM system designers took into account the immense role U.S. air power had played in the PGW, eliminating Soviet era SAM systems crewed by Iraqi operators with AGM-88 HARMS, PGMs and EF-111A Raven EW aircraft. Only the Raptor and Spirit can penetrate an S-300 laced IADS and survive, thanks to its all-aspect stealth. The Raptor can be modified into a SEAD role by equipping it with 8 GBU-39 SDBs or 4 AGM-88E HARMs and can use its APG-77 AESA radar in SAR mode. But be advised, the silver bullet SEAD strategy is no longer viable due to the greatly increased SAM survivability rate, where SAM systems can go mobile and quickly relocate to another location simply by packing / unpacking the TEL and acquisition / engagement radar sets in 5 minutes minimum.