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Four Democratic senators want to delay cap and trade bill (Obama and Pelosi running out of fuel)
dallas examiner ^ | 8/16/2009 | KJ Collins

Posted on 08/16/2009 12:55:58 PM PDT by tobyhill

Four Democratic senators want to put off the proposed cap & trade legislation. Blanche Lincoln of Arkansas, Ben Nelson of Nebraska and Byron Dorgan and Kent Conrad both of North Dakota are urging the Senate to delay legislation that puts caps on greenhouse gas emissions and instead, pass a narrow bill that sets requirements on the use of renewable energy.

Senators Lincoln and Dorgan are up for re-election in 2010 and are from states that would be hurt economically from a cap and trade bill similar to the one passed by the House in June.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D. NV) does not want to separate the climate and energy legislation. “I don’t think we are going to take to the Senate floor a bill stripped of climate provisions,” said Reid, quoted in Bloomberg.

Getting the required 60 votes in the Senate could be a challenge for the Democrats. Most Republicans have stated that they oppose it. Fifteen Democrats say the House version would hurt the economy and needs to be amended before gaining their support.

(Excerpt) Read more at examiner.com ...


TOPICS: Breaking News; Government; News/Current Events; US: Alaska; US: Arkansas; US: California; US: Nebraska; US: Nevada; US: New York; US: North Dakota
KEYWORDS: 111th; alaska; arkansas; california; capandtrade; carbontrading; communist; democrats; fascist; greenagenda; leftright; liberal; liberalfascism; nebraska; nevada; newyork; northdakota; progressive; thirdway; waroncarbon
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1 posted on 08/16/2009 12:55:58 PM PDT by tobyhill
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To: tobyhill

Sounds like the Botox lady is starting to worry about her political future. She may end up with a pink slip and having to hit the streets looking for a real job.


2 posted on 08/16/2009 12:57:41 PM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (January 20th, 2013)
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To: tobyhill

This bill should be DOA. It should never see the light of day.


3 posted on 08/16/2009 1:01:03 PM PDT by freekitty (Give me back my conservative vote; then find me a real conservative to vote for)
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To: freekitty

I agree. Stealing money from the wallets of Americans under the guise of ‘saving the planet’ is hateful and despicable. Those people should be in jail.


4 posted on 08/16/2009 1:05:26 PM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (January 20th, 2013)
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To: tobyhill
They are seeing that the push back on the so-called "health care" question has to do with much more than just its name, and they are correct.

However, it is time for those who engage, to elevate the debate to the point where the media cannot distort it as being just "ignorance" (as Katie Couric claimed yesterday). The Gibbs and Axelrod talking points cannot trump the forcefulness and truth of the words of America's Founders on liberty vs. tyranny (see Jefferson's words below).

Edmund Burke, before the British Parliament way back in March 1775, observed the colonists' fierce "spirit of liberty." He said:

"In other countries the people . . . judge of an ill principle in government only by an actual grievance; here they anticipate the evil and judge of the pressure of the grievance by the badness of the principle." He said Americans could detect "misgovernment at a distance and sniff the approach of tyranny in every tainted breeze."

James Madison put it this way, "The freemen of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. They saw all the consequences in the principle, and they avoided the consequences by denying the principle. We revere this lesson too much, soo to forget it."

Any Republicans or Democrats who "compromise" for the sake of popularity now on this important principle involving future generations should be recalled at the next election cycle!

This is not about a frivolous question of which provisions are acceptable and which are unacceptable. This is about a power struggle between the principles the founding generation were willing to stake their "lives, property, and sacred honor" for, and those who, throughout the history of civilization have arrogated unto themselves power over other people's lives.

The current "issue" called "health care reform," or its equally obnoxious semantic twin "health insurance reform," is just the invasion of liberty by arrogant elected officials which has finally aroused citizens who, heretofore, ignored the decades-long power grab by those who were supposed to protect "We, the People's" constitutional principles.

Now, citizens are seeing that it is a matter of "principle," not an issue of semantics over wording.

They should not allow their elected representatives to be coopted by "blue dogs" or any other "wolf in sheep's clothing" that would allow what may turn out to be the most important watershed moment in the history of American liberty to be further threatened. Now, Conrad and Sebelius, and others, sensing the voter mood are throwing out "compromise" talk this weekend, all to punt for better position down the road. Seize the moment for the sake of posterity and just say, "no"!

A word from the author of our Declaration of Independence regarding citizens and oppressive government might give some backbone to today's citizens:

"The most effectual means of preventing the perversion of power into tyranny are to illuminate . . . the minds of the people at large, and more especially to give them knowledge of those facts which history exhibits, that they may. . . know ambition under all its shapes, and . . . exert their natural power to defeat its purposes." - Thomas Jefferson

And, for more wisdom from the same source:

" . . . this is a tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle in one instance becomes a precedent for a second, that second for a third, and so on, till the bulk of the society is reduced to be mere automatons of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sin and suffering. Then begins, indeed, the bellum omnium in omnia, which some philosophers. . . have mistaken it for the natural, instead of the abusive state of man. And the forehorse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follws that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression."- Thomas Jefferson

5 posted on 08/16/2009 1:06:09 PM PDT by loveliberty2
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To: FlingWingFlyer

“She may end up with a pink slip”

Everybody needs to send this witch an envelope with a pink slip inside with the words “you’re fired.” A pink slip from a post-it-note (sp?) pad would do just fine.


6 posted on 08/16/2009 1:08:25 PM PDT by Gatún(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)
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To: tobyhill
Blanche Lincoln of Arkansas

I guess her fundraiser didn't go so well on Tuesday night!

7 posted on 08/16/2009 1:08:40 PM PDT by kcvl
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To: tobyhill

DELAY!?! Taxman-Malarkey needs to be flushed down the toilet.


8 posted on 08/16/2009 1:08:43 PM PDT by Sarajevo (You're jealous because the voices only talk to me.)
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To: tobyhill
A better option would be to work on a national Renewable Portfolio Standard while also:

- set a "NPS" or nuclear portfolio standard for 20%+ more nuclear power

- encourage new "clean coal" fired power plants

- open offshore and ANWR oil/gas exploration

- encourage new refinery/LNG expansion/construction

- encourage new construction to relieve transmission constraints

In other words, a bi-partisan "all of the above" approach to more domestic energy production.

9 posted on 08/16/2009 1:09:09 PM PDT by DTogo (High time to bring back the Sons of Liberty !!)
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To: GatĂșn(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)

Great idea!


10 posted on 08/16/2009 1:09:25 PM PDT by kcvl
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To: tobyhill
All of these Democrats who voted in haste for these nutso bills had better start looking to their hole cards.

People are getting tired of the BS they have been passing. Urged on by Obama the boy president , they went nutso passing crap bills. The public has started to wake up and they had better wake up too.

Cap and trade is just plain stupid,especially in light of the fact that there is no Global warming. The next thing they had better do is start drilling for our own energy sources .

11 posted on 08/16/2009 1:10:20 PM PDT by Venturer
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To: Sarajevo

The Rats will wait till after the 2010 elections to push this through and that’s why we need a couple more Senators to make sure they don’t get the 60.


12 posted on 08/16/2009 1:12:00 PM PDT by tobyhill (The Communist have taken over)
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To: tobyhill
This Kent Conrad must be immune to the enticements of the White House. In addition to opposing C&T, he also said Obama needed "more humility" with health care reform, and he wouldn't support single-payer.

Impertinence, or just responding to a very real threat of getting thrown out of the House by his constituents? Probably the latter.

13 posted on 08/16/2009 1:12:04 PM PDT by browardchad
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To: tobyhill; MeekOneGOP; potlatch; devolve
Ban Ki-moon warns of catastrophe without world deal on climate change
14 posted on 08/16/2009 1:12:08 PM PDT by PhilDragoo (Hussein: Islamo-Commie from Kenya)
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To: tobyhill
Senators Lincoln and Dorgan are up for re-election in 2010

Make the COWARDS vote on it!

15 posted on 08/16/2009 1:14:56 PM PDT by kcvl
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To: freekitty

One can only hope.


16 posted on 08/16/2009 1:15:00 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: GatĂșn(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)

Who would you want her replaced with, someone more capable?


17 posted on 08/16/2009 1:15:04 PM PDT by Balding_Eagle (If America falls, darkness will cover the face of the earth for a thousand years.)
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To: tobyhill

Senate Dems are working on Senate rule changes NOW to require only 50 votes, not 60, to pass anything they and Obama want...beware!


18 posted on 08/16/2009 1:15:50 PM PDT by givemELL (Does Taiwan Meet the Criteria to Qualify as an "Overseas Territory of the United States"? by Richar)
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To: tobyhill

Coming up for 2010, Phase 3 of Zer0’s Program To Destroy America:

“Comprehensive Immigration Reform”, (aka “Illegal Alien Amnesty”) Round III


19 posted on 08/16/2009 1:16:35 PM PDT by angkor (The U.S. Congress is at war with America.)
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To: tobyhill

NO!! VOTE NOW!!! SHOW the people who you relly are!! Go down with the Obama ship!! PLEASE VOTE NOW!!!


20 posted on 08/16/2009 1:17:09 PM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion....the Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: FlingWingFlyer
Stealing money from the wallets of Americans under the guise of ‘saving the planet’ is hateful and despicable. Those people should be in jail.

Indeed. It's quite a scorecard that Barry and Nancy are running up - TARP, GM, Chrysler, Cap & Trade, "Health Care Reform" - and warming up in the bullpen - Immigration Reform.

The name of this show is "Intolerable Acts II - the Sequel".

21 posted on 08/16/2009 1:17:40 PM PDT by Charles Martel ("Endeavor to persevere...")
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To: tobyhill
instead, pass a narrow bill that sets requirements on the use of renewable energy

If renewable energy is so great, why does the government have to require its use?

How would this REALLY affect the economy?

22 posted on 08/16/2009 1:19:05 PM PDT by Need4Truth (Downsizing government is more than just reducing taxes.)
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To: FlingWingFlyer
Sounds like the Botox lady is starting to worry about her political future. She may end up with a pink slip and having to hit the streets looking for a real job.

This is amazing. Who would have thought things would turn out like this a month ago? Democrats are starting to run away from Obama and San Fran Nan like a bunch of cockroaches when the kitchen light gets turned on in the middle of the night. Run but you can't hide.

23 posted on 08/16/2009 1:19:52 PM PDT by stripes1776 ("That if gold rust, what shall iron do?" --Chaucer)
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To: tobyhill
All the damn democraps misunderstood winning the election for a mandate.

They have no mandate because they all lied their asses off to win.

They are a despicable cabal of communist clowns.

Throw them out folks and save the USA as a free country.

24 posted on 08/16/2009 1:20:25 PM PDT by dforest (Who is the real Jim Thompson? I am.)
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To: tobyhill
Four Democratic senators <>want to put off the proposed cap & trade legislation.

Does this mean they want to delay cap and trade legislation until AFTER they are reelected, then spring it on constituents? Sure sounds like it to me. If it were otherwise, they'd be vehemently opposing it, now or ever.

25 posted on 08/16/2009 1:20:37 PM PDT by MamaDearest
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To: tobyhill

Too bad we don’t have folks on Capitol Hill willing to speak out like this. J..D. Pendry is a retired Marine Sergeant Major who writes for Random House. He is eloquent, and as taught by the Marines, he seldom beats around the bush..

‘The Axis of Idiots’

Jimmy Carter, you are the father of the Islamic Nazi movement. You threw the Shah under the bus, welcomed the Ayatollah home, and then lacked the spine to confront the terrorists when they took our embassy and our people hostage. You’re the runner-in-chief.

Bill Clinton, you played ring around the Lewinsky while the terrorists were at war with us. You got us into a fight with them in Somalia and then you ran from it. Your weak-willed responses to the USS Cole and the First Trade Center Bombing and Our Embassy Bombings emboldened the killers.. Each time you failed to respond adequately, they grew bolder, until 9/11/2001.

John Kerry, dishonesty is your most prominent attribute. You lied about American Soldiers in Vietnam .. Your military service, like your life, is more fiction than fact. You’ve accused our military of terrorizing women and children in Iraq . You called Iraq the wrong war, wrong place, wrong time, the same words you used to describe Vietnam .. You’re a fake. You want to run from Iraq and abandon the Iraqis to murderers just as you did to the Vietnamese. Iraq, like Vietnam, is another war that you were for, before you were against it.

John Murtha, you said our military was broken. You said we can’t win militarily in Iraq . You accused United States Marinesof cold-blooded murder without proof and said we should redeploy to Okinawa .. Okinawa, John? And the Democrats call you their military expert! Are you sure you didn’t suffer a traumatic brain injury while you were off building yourwar hero resume? You’re a sad, pitiable, corrupt and washed up politician. You’re not a Marine, sir. You wouldn’t amount to a good pimple on a real Marine’s butt. You’re a phony and a disgrace. Run away, John ..

Dick Durbin, you accused our Soldiers at Guantanamo of being Nazis, tenders of Soviet style gulags and as bad as the regime of Pol Pot , who murdered two million of his own people after your party abandoned Southeast Asia to the Communists. Now you want to abandon the Iraqis to the same fate. History was not a good teacher for you, was it? Lord help us! See Dick run.

Ted Kennedy, for days on end you held poster-sized pictures from Abu Ghraib in front of any available television camera. Al Jazeera quoted you saying that Iraqi’s torture chambers were open under new management. Did you see the news, Teddy? The Islamic Nazis demonstrated another beheading for you. If you truly supported our troops, you’d show the world poster-sized pictures of that atrocity and demand the annihilation of it. Your legislation stripping support from the South Vietnamese led to a communist victory there. You’re a bloated, drunken fool bent on repeating the same historical blunder that turned freedom-seeking people over to homicidal, genocidal maniacs. To paraphrase John Murtha, all while sitting on your wide, gin-soaked rear-end in Washington.

Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Carl Levine, Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein, Russ Feingold, Hillary Clinton, Pat Leahy, Barack Obama, Chuck Schumer, the Hollywood Leftist morons, et al, ad nauseam: Every time you stand in front of television cameras and broadcast to the Islamic Nazis that we went to war because our President lied, that the war is wrong and our Soldiers are torturers, that we should leave Iraq, you give the Islamic butchers - the same ones that tortured and mutilated American Soldiers - cause to think that we’ll run away again, and all they have to do is hang on a little longer. It is inevitable that we, the infidels , will have to defeat the Islamic jihadists. Better to do it now on their turf, than later on ours after they have gained both strength and momentum.

American news media, the New York Times particularly: Each time you publish stories about national defense secrets and our intelligence gathering methods, you become one united with the sub-human pieces of camel dung that torture and mutilate the bodies of American Soldiers. You can’t strike up the courage to publish cartoons, but you can help Al Qaeda destroy my country. Actually, you are more dangerous to us than Al Qaeda is. Think about that each time you face Mecca to admire your Pulitzer.
You are America ‘s ‘AXIS OF IDIOTS.’ Your Collective Stupidity will destroy us. Self-serving politics and terrorist-abetting news scoops are more important to you than our national security or the lives of innocent civilians and Soldiers. It bothers you that defending ourselves gets in the way of your elitist sport of politics and your ignorant editorializing. There is as much blood on your hands as is on the hands of murdering terrorists. Don’t ever doubt that. Your frolics will only serve to extend this war as they extended Vietnam .. If you want our Soldiers home as you claim, knock off the crap and try supporting your country ahead of supporting your silly political aims and aiding our enemies.
Yes, I’m questioning your patriotism. Your loyalty ends with self. I’m also questioning why you’re stealing air that decent Americans could be breathing. You don’t deserve the protection of our men and women in uniform. You need to run away from this war, this country. Leave the war to the people who have the will to see it through and the country to people who are willing to defend it.
Our country has two enemies:Those who want to destroy us from the outside and those who attempt it from within.

Semper Fi,

J. D. Pendry - Sergeant Major, USMC, Retired

This is a savvy man. He has nailed it down pretty good.


26 posted on 08/16/2009 1:21:15 PM PDT by B-Cause (It's not what you gather, but what you scatter that tells what kind of life you have lived.)
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To: tobyhill
More good news! But......from the article:

........"If, however, the Senate abandons its efforts to pass cap and trade regulation this year, the EPA could step back in. This past Spring, the EPA determined that it has the authority to regulate CO2 under the Clean Air Act, but put any regulations on hold while cap and trade legislation was alive in Congress. "..........

Hmmmmmmm.
27 posted on 08/16/2009 1:21:33 PM PDT by Girlene (Dona Girlene)
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To: tobyhill
In my opinion, the upcoming September 12th “Tea Party” events in Washington, DC and around the country will have an immense effect on which way the Congress chooses to move on this and many other issues.

Self preservation is at the top of the list for all politicians, and ignoring the overwhelming will of the people on these issues will be their doom, should they try to stand against the coming tsunami of patriotism. And they know it!

If we can demonstrate our willpower and resolve by getting out into the streets in massive numbers, then even the most liberal idiot libtards in Congress will begin to fear us!

If you can't make it to Washington, DC., at least get out to a local 9/12 event!

Your country is calling you to serve! What will your answer be? And will you be proud to tell your grandchildren, or embarrassed?

28 posted on 08/16/2009 1:22:57 PM PDT by airborne (WAKE UP AMERICA! OR DIE IN YOUR SLEEP!)
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To: tobyhill

Next! Ration energy and tax it... will be our next victim.


29 posted on 08/16/2009 1:23:27 PM PDT by screaminsunshine (!!)
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To: tobyhill
If we keep after them, if we stand strong against these marxists...we WILL take them down.


OBAMA'S BRIDGE TOO FAR


THE STORM UNLEASHED ON AMERICA

A PETITION ON FACEBOOK FOR CONSTITUTIONAL RESTORATION

...and, hehehe, that is also why so many "fishy" posters, conversations, and emails are showing up all over the nation.


FISHY POSTERS - REPORT TO THE OBAMA-COMMISSAR

30 posted on 08/16/2009 1:23:39 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: freekitty

Cap & Tax needs to die a very violent death.

This bill needs to be defeated so badly that no “Progressive” commie would have the guts to even mention it for the next two to three decades.


31 posted on 08/16/2009 1:23:40 PM PDT by 2111USMC
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To: tobyhill
Delay hell!!

This is a country killing effort by the scum-bag Marxists.

Kill it NOW!

32 posted on 08/16/2009 1:26:08 PM PDT by blam
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To: tobyhill
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D. NV) does not want to separate the climate and energy legislation. “I don’t think we are going to take to the Senate floor a bill stripped of climate provisions,” said Reid, quoted in Bloomberg.

They see the writing on the wall for Cap-and-Trade and are following Australian model, trying to separate it from and push for useless and expensive "renewable" and "green" and "energy independent" wind and solar energy, so they can grab some initiative, money and power now, with options to advance C&T later.

stralia to Split Climate-Change Proposal After Senate Failure - BL, 2009 August 16, by Robert Fenner


33 posted on 08/16/2009 1:27:01 PM PDT by CutePuppy (If you don't ask the right questions you may not get the right answers)
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To: MamaDearest

That’s exactly what they are trying to do but we won’t let them.


34 posted on 08/16/2009 1:29:19 PM PDT by tobyhill (The Communist have taken over)
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To: CutePuppy
Australia to Split Climate-Change Proposal After Senate Failure - BL, 2009 August 16, by Robert Fenner
35 posted on 08/16/2009 1:30:27 PM PDT by CutePuppy (If you don't ask the right questions you may not get the right answers)
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To: Balding_Eagle

Heavens, Balding_Eagle.

You are a conservative. How about your taking over her job? You would be excellent.

If you don’t want it, are there any takers out there on FR who are willing?


36 posted on 08/16/2009 1:32:24 PM PDT by Gatún(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)
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To: GatĂșn(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)

As you well know it has to be a member of the House.

My point it that it is much better to have Pelosie, who is totally incompetent, that someone who is crafty and capable.


37 posted on 08/16/2009 1:39:09 PM PDT by Balding_Eagle (If America falls, darkness will cover the face of the earth for a thousand years.)
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To: tobyhill

I guess they’re not just hearing about health care from the folks back home. Good.


38 posted on 08/16/2009 1:41:50 PM PDT by mainepatsfan
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To: tobyhill
(Obama and Pelosi running out of fuel)

IMHO I think this is just wishful thinking. The RATS run everything, they can pass whatever they want and we cannot stop it.

I am send new letters to my Rep and Senators this week - "Do not settle for any bipartisan compromise on Obamacare. We do not want the Government involved any more than they alreay are".
39 posted on 08/16/2009 1:43:16 PM PDT by Cheerio (Barack Hussein 0bama=The Complete Destruction of American Capitalism)
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To: tobyhill
All,--- These are the effects that the spirited Town Halls and the voicing of our ideals is having upon the Federal Govt. Please keep it up and remain vigilant. Expose them with light and throw them out in 2010 much as possible. Carry Onwards!
40 posted on 08/16/2009 1:43:54 PM PDT by tflabo (Truth or Tyranny)
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To: Balding_Eagle

No...What I was thinking was voting her out next year.

I misread your thoughts.


41 posted on 08/16/2009 1:47:02 PM PDT by Gatún(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)
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To: Balding_Eagle

I don’t live in CA (thank goodness) but I’m think a ball of belly button lint could do better.


42 posted on 08/16/2009 1:47:19 PM PDT by jrestrepo (See you all in Galt's gulch)
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To: browardchad
This Kent Conrad must be immune to the enticements of the White House. In addition to opposing C&T, he also said Obama needed "more humility" with health care reform, and he wouldn't support single-payer. Impertinence, or just responding to a very real threat of getting thrown out of the House by his constituents? Probably the latter.

I believe Conrad has a pretty formidable opponent this time around so he's pretty nervous.

43 posted on 08/16/2009 1:53:42 PM PDT by mainepatsfan
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To: 2111USMC

Does it ever. I agree.


44 posted on 08/16/2009 1:58:30 PM PDT by freekitty (Give me back my conservative vote; then find me a real conservative to vote for)
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To: FlingWingFlyer

They should be in jail and we have just the place. Guantanmo seems to be up for rent.


45 posted on 08/16/2009 1:59:39 PM PDT by freekitty (Give me back my conservative vote; then find me a real conservative to vote for)
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To: Girlene
They will settle for EPA regulation for awhile, but they really want and need Cap and Trade.

Cap and Trade embeds itself and becomes a part of permanent energy infrastructure and can suck in as much money as they want to make, while completely distorting and controlling energy and manufacturing capacity markets.

EPA regulations are temporary, not permanent, can be easily undone by another administration and, while controlling and distorting the markets, don't bring substantial and direct financial benefits to financial community and even majority of politicos. Just a sop to "greens" at the expense of economy, employment and tax revenues. Much pain, little gain.

Cap and Trade is the ultimate prize, but in the meantime, they try to make some scratch with mandating "clean energy" in the form of wind and solar, because they are so invested in them.

46 posted on 08/16/2009 2:05:23 PM PDT by CutePuppy (If you don't ask the right questions you may not get the right answers)
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To: tobyhill

The socialist house of cards is crumbling.

Thanks to great Americans all over this country.


47 posted on 08/16/2009 2:13:54 PM PDT by TexasFreeper2009 (Obama lied, the economy died)
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To: Balding_Eagle
As you well know it has to be a member of the House.

I believe that Speaker of the House doesn't have to be a Congress member of the House. Though I don't have an example of one who wasn't.

48 posted on 08/16/2009 2:16:54 PM PDT by CutePuppy (If you don't ask the right questions you may not get the right answers)
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To: CutePuppy

Very good points. You seem to question Congress and the administration’s “intent” in passing this cap and trade. It’s not all for the “good of Mother Earth”? I’m shocked!


49 posted on 08/16/2009 2:19:20 PM PDT by Girlene (Dona Girlene)
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To: DTogo

but, but..........the good enviro/liberal/radical types are against more nuclear, against more oil drilling, against more refineries, against LNG because we’re supposed to get away from all fossil fuels, claim that there’s no such thing as “clean coal” , and anyway, coal is still a fossil fuel, which we’re supposed to get away from.

Liberal enviros are only in favor of solar energy and windmills and geo thermal power. But the windmills can’t block Ted Kennedy’s view.


50 posted on 08/16/2009 2:19:40 PM PDT by Dilbert San Diego
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