Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

'Monogamous' Gays Can Serve in ELCA (Largest Lutheran Denomination Split on Divisive Issue)
Washington Post ^ | 8/21/2009 | jacqueline Salmon

Posted on 08/21/2009 9:13:19 PM PDT by SeekAndFind

Leaders of the nation's biggest Lutheran denomination voted Friday to allow gays in committed relationships to serve as clergy in the church -- making it one of the largest Christian denominations in the country to significantly open the pulpit to gays.

Previously, only celibate gays were permitted to serve as clergy in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, a denomination of 4.8 million members. But delegates to a church assembly voted 559-451 to allow gays in "life-long, monogamous" relationships to serve as clergy and professional lay leaders in the church.

The vote is the culmination of a years-long process in the ELCA, and was accompanied by plenty of emotion at the convention in Minneapolis. After standing in long lines to reach microphones during debates that extended all day, some delegates shook and others cried as they expressed their opposition or support of the measure.

Quoting the Bible and denomination founder Martin Luther, delegates sought to place the decision within their interpretation of their Lutheran faith.

"We live today with an understanding of homosexuality that did not exist in Jesus' time and culture," Tim Mumm, a lay delegate from Wisconsin and supporter of Lutherans Concerned, an gay-rights organization, said during the debate. "We are responding to something that the writers of Scripture could not have understood."

But other said the recommendations weaken the Biblical standards of the church.

"As Luther taught us, Scripture does not have a wax nose," said the Rev. Ryan Mills, a delegate representing Texas and Louisana. "It cannot be twisted into anything we want it to say. But that's just what we're doing with these following recommendations."

Conservatives tried to derail the vote, losing a ballot that would have required a supermajority of two-thirds to approve the proposal. They lost a similar vote earlier in the week.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: ecla; gay; homosexualagenda; homosexualclergy; lutheran; lutherans; martinluther
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-87 next last

1 posted on 08/21/2009 9:13:20 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

“We live today with an understanding of homosexuality that did not exist in Jesus’ time and culture,” Tim Mumm, a lay delegate from Wisconsin and supporter of Lutherans Concerned, an gay-rights organization, said during the debate. “We are responding to something that the writers of Scripture could not have understood.”

And Paul wrote:

1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

So, uh, Mr Tim Mumm, you should maybe try to read your bible instead of getting your religion from TV: MSLBGT and Mr Rachel Maddov or whatever his name is. In Jesus day they certainly did understand the evils of homosexual behaviour and of course we know the evils today.

Congratulations Mr Mumms on destroying your church. Way to go.


2 posted on 08/21/2009 9:24:32 PM PDT by FlyingEagle
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

And so goes another branch of Christianity, denying the very word of God. How disgusting!!


3 posted on 08/21/2009 9:25:05 PM PDT by ABQHispConservative (A Blue Dog Democrat is an oxyMoron!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
“We live today with an understanding of homosexuality that did not exist in Jesus’ time and culture,” Tim Mumm, a lay delegate from Wisconsin and supporter of Lutherans Concerned, an gay-rights organization, said during the debate. “We are responding to something that the writers of Scripture could not have understood.”

Does Mumm really believe that neither the Jews nor the Christians knew anything about homosexuality before today? Only someone completely devoid of any historical knowledge of the early church could be that dumb. The question that it does beg is whether or not God knew anything about homosexuality? If the Scriptures are “God-breathed,” then what Mumm is really saying is that God doesn't know what he is talking about. Mumm trusts the current secular culture over the Word of God.

4 posted on 08/21/2009 9:26:51 PM PDT by Nosterrex
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ABQHispConservative

I think their reasoning goes this way :

Clergymen are subject to sexual temptations be they heterosexual or homosexual.

Heterosexual clergy are tempted by attractive women to commit fornication or adultery. However, if they resist these temptation and remain celibate or faithful to their wives, they may serve.

Same principle applies to Gay clergy. The are also tempted. However, the source of their temptation is DIFFERENT from those of straight clergymen -— attractive men. However, if they also resist these temptation and remain celibate, they may also serve.

What is your argument against this line of reasoning ?


5 posted on 08/21/2009 9:35:25 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
W I C K E D N E S S and APOSTASY! Those in leadership within the denomination who genuinely know and love the Lord Jesus Christ had better flee for their lives and bring their congregations with them lest they also partake in the judgment of Jesus Christ that is coming upon those who condone and promote this abomination!

The words of Revelation 2:18-29 serve as a severe warning to all involved in this perversion, apostasy and sexual immorality:

Message to Thyatira

18"And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:

19'I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first.

20'But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.

21'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.

22'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.

23'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.

24'But I say to you, the rest who are in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them--I place no other burden on you.

25'Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.

26'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;

27AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father;

28and I will give him the morning star.

29'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'

6 posted on 08/21/2009 9:36:33 PM PDT by Jmouse007 (hank you)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

Read your Bible. Homosexuality is an abomination in God’s eyes. Homosexuals have degenerate minds. Homosexuality is also a chosen lifestyle. Why are you seeking to play apologetics for what God calls an abomination?


7 posted on 08/21/2009 9:39:34 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

Since when is the clearly understood Word of God put “up to a vote?”


8 posted on 08/21/2009 9:44:45 PM PDT by fwdude (It is time to water the Tree of Liberty.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

The question is why limit it to “monogamous” affairs? Because the idea of group orgies is too ugly even for them?


9 posted on 08/21/2009 9:44:47 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Barack Obama is a political suicide bomber and the Rats are political arsonists.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN

And Christ’s blood makes being “a homosexual” into a past tense for a believer. We now have, instead, a saved sinner with temptations.


10 posted on 08/21/2009 9:46:13 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Barack Obama is a political suicide bomber and the Rats are political arsonists.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

The ELCA slithers farther into insignificance.


11 posted on 08/21/2009 9:49:06 PM PDT by wjcsux ("If you cannot tolerate imperfections, be prepared to kiss your freedom goodbye," Thomas Sowell)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
"life-long, monogamous" relationships

Sorry not possible, it is not the nature of the mental disorder.

12 posted on 08/21/2009 9:49:06 PM PDT by svcw (Legalism reinforces self-righteousness - it communicates to you the good news of your own goodness)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

The ELCA slithers farther into insignificance.


13 posted on 08/21/2009 9:49:35 PM PDT by wjcsux ("If you cannot tolerate imperfections, be prepared to kiss your freedom goodbye," Thomas Sowell)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: HiTech RedNeck

Then why would such a creature want to be identified by sexual proclivities. Sorry, can’t agree with you that such an one is living the ‘faithe’ life.


14 posted on 08/21/2009 9:52:46 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: HiTech RedNeck

Why not monogamous adultery? It’s ok as long as you only cheat on your spouse with just one person?


15 posted on 08/21/2009 9:58:49 PM PDT by MrDem (From Morning in America to Mourning in America...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN

They wouldn’t. I’m not calling the “past tense” homosexuals the same as these “monogamous couples” the ELCA has seen fit to unleash on Christendom. The “past tense” homosexuals will seek to be free of the old habits, though they may fail from time to time. They won’t seek compromises to live in.


16 posted on 08/21/2009 10:04:46 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Barack Obama is a political suicide bomber and the Rats are political arsonists.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

Clergymen and women chose to devote their lives to God’s work. At any point in time, they can chose otherwise. Temptation is everywhere, but if they truly have faith, then God will protect them.

The issue with gays comes down to how it is described in the Bible. I can understand recognizing that some people are gay, but if we allow them to teach the word of God, wouldn’t that be hypocritical? How would we view a convicted rapist conducting a sermon, or a thief and murderer?

Why should we turn on the word of God, simply because it’s convenient? These clergymen should recognize that they are living in sin, resign and seek guidance from God to change their ways.


17 posted on 08/21/2009 10:09:38 PM PDT by ABQHispConservative (A Blue Dog Democrat is an oxyMoron!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
"We live today with an understanding of homosexuality that did not exist in Jesus' time and culture," Tim Mumm, a lay delegate from Wisconsin and supporter of Lutherans Concerned, an gay-rights organization, said during the debate. "We are responding to something that the writers of Scripture could not have understood."

Perverted homosexual acts were sin 4000 years ago when God rained fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah Mr. Mumm, that perversion was sin 3400 years ago when Moses wrote the Judaic Law code as dictated by God, it was sin when the Apostle Paul condemned it in his letter written to the Roman Christians under divine inspiration, it's sin today, and will still be sin tomorrow no matter what your opinion may be Mr. Mumm.

Any authentic, born again, Christ-honoring Christians who may be still hanging on to the ELCA hoping for a miracle to occur should get out now and find a local LCMS church to attend. The Missouri Synod is still faithful to Holy Scripture AFAIK, so there's no good reason for true Christian Lutherans to remain in an apostate ELCA church where God's holy, infallible Word is regarded as merely a collection of out of date opinions of ancient Hebrew scribes.

I regularly attend an evangelical, bible-believing, gospel preaching, local church, however I don't officially belong to any established denominational church. But if I were to choose one to join it certainly wouldn't be one that denies that the Bible is the divinely inspired Word of God, and/or that denies that perverted homosexual activity is sin.

18 posted on 08/21/2009 10:16:16 PM PDT by epow (Luke 11:21 "When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
However, if they also resist these temptation and remain celibate, they may also serve.

That's the old policy of the ELCA, their new policy doesn't even require celibacy; or did you not read the article?

19 posted on 08/21/2009 10:19:55 PM PDT by eclecticEel (The Most High rules in the kingdom of men ... and sets over it the basest of men.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: HiTech RedNeck
And Christ’s blood makes being “a homosexual” into a past tense for a believer. We now have, instead, a saved sinner with temptations.

Being a saved sinner is different from being a Homosexual. Being a Homosexual implies still having that spiritual disease.

Whomever Christ saves, he changes, effectively giving that man or woman power over the sins that once controlled him.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (Whole Chapter)
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

This is not about a born-again homosexual, there is no such thing. Because anyone willing to call themselves a homosexual implies the evil desires of that disease are still active. God changes the heart of the man/woman who has been born again through the blood of Christ.

Once God saves a homosexual, he heals him/her of that disease, and mark my word, it is a disease.

The reason I am being so emphatic about this is because what Paul said in Romans Chapter 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.



It is clear from this scripture that God gave up the men/women who not only were seperated from him but continuously chose to be seperated from to this disease.

Homosexuality is a punishment given to those who refuse to honor God as God but instead continually choose to server their own selfish desires.

If someone is still a Homosexual, there is no God in their life.

The two are anti-thetical to each other.
20 posted on 08/21/2009 10:20:10 PM PDT by SoConPubbie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

Read Post #20


21 posted on 08/21/2009 10:20:58 PM PDT by SoConPubbie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
What is your argument against this line of reasoning ?

Those who are in Sin, should not be in the pulpit. Those who call themselves Homosexuals, whether or not they are "active" homosexuals, are still living in sin outside the grace of God.

Or have you forgotten what Jesus said in the Beatitudes?

Matthew 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
22 posted on 08/21/2009 10:23:35 PM PDT by SoConPubbie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: SoConPubbie

One has to be careful to not conflate “being a homosexual” with “experiencing a certain profile of temptation.” Some miraculously find themselves temptation free, others have a more difficult row to hoe. To call the latter non believers of necessity, is an untruth and an insult to God.


23 posted on 08/21/2009 10:39:13 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Barack Obama is a political suicide bomber and the Rats are political arsonists.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: SoConPubbie; SeekAndFind
Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

My point being that it is not the action that is the sin in God's eyes, but the desire. This goes for Adultery, Homosexuality, Lying, Murder etc.
24 posted on 08/21/2009 10:40:21 PM PDT by SoConPubbie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: HiTech RedNeck
True, however, don't confuse a born-again ex-homosexual, free from his sin, with a "monogomous" or inactive Homosexual.

As posted earlier in this thread, it is not the action that makes a sin objectionable to God, but the desire itself.

Temptation is not the desire to sin, but as merriam-webster states:
Tempt:
1 : to entice to do wrong by promise of pleasure or gain

Those homosexuals still suffering from the evil, ugly desire that is the hallmark of that condition, are not saved and are not living in the Grace of God. They are still unregenerated sinners in need of forgiveness and salvation.
25 posted on 08/21/2009 10:45:13 PM PDT by SoConPubbie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: SoConPubbie

I fear it’s you who are in danger of falling into the confusion, and condemning those tempted against their will.


26 posted on 08/21/2009 11:00:37 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Barack Obama is a political suicide bomber and the Rats are political arsonists.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: SoConPubbie

Let me point out that there are thoughts against one’s will, and thoughts with one’s will. You are condemning the tempted.


27 posted on 08/21/2009 11:03:21 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Barack Obama is a political suicide bomber and the Rats are political arsonists.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: HiTech RedNeck
Let me point out that there are thoughts against one’s will, and thoughts with one’s will. You are condemning the tempted.

Quite the opposite.

I totally agree with that statement.

Those still suffering with the Desire of Homosexuality are those living outside the Grace of God. Suffering from temptations are not necessarily since Temptation comes to all men/women.
28 posted on 08/21/2009 11:06:20 PM PDT by SoConPubbie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: HiTech RedNeck

Those whom God saves, he changes, else the Old Testament dispensation is still in play and the Death of Christ was of no avail.


29 posted on 08/21/2009 11:07:31 PM PDT by SoConPubbie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: SoConPubbie

I’m sorry, but it is a truth that we still live in the old tent until glory. THEN, we will “be changed” in entirety. You only fool yourselves and harm your own reward to pretend otherwise.


30 posted on 08/21/2009 11:09:58 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Barack Obama is a political suicide bomber and the Rats are political arsonists.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: SoConPubbie

You are wrong. I am not even going to say I agree to disagree, you are so wrong.


31 posted on 08/21/2009 11:10:53 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Barack Obama is a political suicide bomber and the Rats are political arsonists.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: fwdude

“Since when is the clearly understood Word of God put “up to a vote?”

It has been happening ever since the time of Adam and Eve when the serpent basically said to Eve that God really didn’t mean what He said. It’s been downhill from there.

People have always tried to re-make God to suit themselves.


32 posted on 08/21/2009 11:13:33 PM PDT by Pining_4_TX
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: HiTech RedNeck
You are wrong. I am not even going to say I agree to disagree, you are so wrong.

Christ came not only to forgive sins, but to save sinners from their sins.

What glory is their for God to simply forgive a sinner over and over and over for continually committing the same crime against him?

A perfect God would only design a perfect salvation, one which forgives and saves makes the man/woman who submits to God's plan of salvation a new creation or "born again".

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


33 posted on 08/21/2009 11:14:24 PM PDT by SoConPubbie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
Ya know, these days it's gotta be difficult to be a monogamous gay guy! After awhile a fine bung-hole just kinda becomes - well just another bung-hole

Ya kind'a need to get out and suck face with another whiskered lover, and experience the joy of "change", with "hope" that your new lover can give to your life new experience in your quest for true love!

34 posted on 08/21/2009 11:19:37 PM PDT by aShepard
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: HiTech RedNeck
I’m sorry, but it is a truth that we still live in the old tent until glory. THEN, we will “be changed” in entirety. You only fool yourselves and harm your own reward to pretend otherwise.

Don't confuse being in this body and the tempations that come from that condition with sinning friend. You do so to the peril of your own soul. Christ came to free us from our sinful nature, not to keep us chained to it and continually sinning and continually as a result having to repent.

Here is what the Apostle John had to say about Sinning with respect to our soul's condition:

1 John 2

1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
35 posted on 08/21/2009 11:20:44 PM PDT by SoConPubbie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

They might as well change the name of their organization, they are not Evangelicals, they are Reprobates.


36 posted on 08/21/2009 11:36:02 PM PDT by Steelers6
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

If your in the ELCA, you should tell your church we had better join the Missouri or the other Synod or we will move to a Lutheran Church that is in those Synods.


37 posted on 08/21/2009 11:42:30 PM PDT by Steelers6
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind

They got it right ... almost. The correct answer would be that abstinent gays could serve.


38 posted on 08/22/2009 2:59:00 AM PDT by TurtleUp (flag@whitehouse.gov <------- So this is how liberty dies - to thunderous applause!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TurtleUp
They got it right ... almost. The correct answer would be that abstinent gays could serve.

I CONCUR.
39 posted on 08/22/2009 5:57:13 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN
Homosexuality is an abomination in God’s eyes.

But so is lust... are you going to tell me that heterosxual clergymen are not tempted by lust for other women ?

We are all tempted. What makes us sin is FALLING FOR TEMPTATION.

Abstinent gays are tempted in a different way, as long as they do not fall into temptation and ACT on their lust, they should be allowed to serve.
40 posted on 08/22/2009 6:00:46 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
"Abstinent gays are tempted in a different way, as long as they do not fall into temptation and ACT on their lust, they should be allowed to serve." So says the gay apologist, SeekAndFind.

You are missing the point of the exchange, it would appear on purpose: sexual degeneracy is a lifestyle choice; the truly regenerated soul will not seek to identify itself by the sexual proclivities which drove the life before Christ's Grace, so if the sexual degenerate still seeks to be identified by the previous degeneracy, that soul is not regenerated.

You really ought to try Jesus, he is the Soter, the Deliverer from evil. Homosexuality as a choice is evil. You can be delivered from evil. That's why Jesus took upon himself a body, suffered and died, then rose again from the tomb.

Peddle your tolerance for evil to someone else, I will not compromise with you and the sexual degenerates.

41 posted on 08/22/2009 9:27:46 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
"Monogamous" homosexuals.What do they constitute...about 1.1% of all homosexuals?
42 posted on 08/22/2009 9:30:49 AM PDT by Gay State Conservative (Christian+Veteran=Terrorist)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind; MHGinTN
Abstinent gays are tempted in a different way, as long as they do not fall into temptation and ACT on their lust, they should be allowed to serve.

You can either choose your understanding or you can choose God's commands. The choice is yours.

Abstinent gays implies they still have the disease or the desire but are not acting on it. According to Jesus, this is the same thing as acting on it:

Matthew 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


The same concept applies for each and every sin.

So, you can either side with God or side with your feeble understanding.

"Choose this day whom you will serve...."
43 posted on 08/22/2009 10:00:50 AM PDT by SoConPubbie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN
Homosexuality as a choice is evil. You can be delivered from evil.

I NEVER said homosexuality was not EVIL. I did say that there are DIFFERENT MANIFESTATIONS of evil, homosexual lust being one of them. But so is heterosexual lust.

If one is tempted but does NOT CHOOSE to give in to the temptation, one does not sin. Therefore I don't understand the one-sided condemnation of clergy who are tempted by homosexual lust and on the other hand, forgetting the clergy who are likewise tempted by heterosexual lust. Giving in to either one of them are PERSONAL CHOICES.

Is Jim Baker's adultery with a woman any less reprehensible than Ted Haggard's lying with a male prostitute ?

Both are abomination to the Lord.

That's why Jesus took upon himself a body, suffered and died, then rose again from the tomb.

Since I believe this like you do, I have no further comments regarding this statement.
44 posted on 08/22/2009 10:17:54 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: SoConPubbie
Abstinent gays implies they still have the disease or the desire but are not acting on it. According to Jesus, this is the same thing as acting on it:

If this is your understanding, then we are all in trouble. We have heterosexual male pastors who still have the disease or the desire after pretty women but are not acting on it. Is it then your contention that ANY PASTOR who is tempted by these desires ( but do not act to fulfill it ) be banned from the clergy ? If so, you'd have practically no clergy to begin with.
45 posted on 08/22/2009 10:20:59 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
Sadly, you do not appear to comprehend what you have been led to argue. Note the following from your reasoning:

"Is Jim Baker's adultery with a woman any less reprehensible than Ted Haggard's lying with a male prostitute?"

With this question as a foundation for trying to make claims to tolerate the degenerate so long as they are resisting temptation, you reveal the twisted nature of your own thinking! Instead of focusing upon the Deliverer, you would have us focus upon the abject failure of highly regarded, still unregenerate men who held themselves and their lusts as superior to the deliverance Jesus brings to the human soul by placing His Life int he human spirit!

Why would you try to focus the discussion on the 'contradiction inherent in Haggert's or Baker's life in opposition to their profession'? To make room for tolerating the contradiction between the sexual degenerate's profession and the reality of their living! Then, when you are called on the duplicity of such apologetics, you and others resort to conflating the unregenerate known by their actions, with the saved in Christ falling on occasion into temptation, who, when they fall, seek the throne of forgiveness.

Did you miss the lesson taught by Paul in Romans Chapter one: 1:21&22 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools
1:24&25 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.

You might ask yourself: 'If God gave them up to the lusts of their hearts, were they under the law when given up or under Grace?'

The very nature of continuing to identify the self by the degeneracy which holds their heart is evidence that they are under the law not Grace.

You are alive in at least two dimensions, body and soul. The Delivered soul has a third dimension of Life, the spirit with the earnest of the inheritance within, God's Life, making such an one living under Grace rather than the law. The story of the Prodigal Son might be helpful.

While off in the pig sty, the son was under the law. When he set his mind to return to his father's jurisdiction, he walked into Grace, as evidenced by his father running to meet him on the road. Now ask yourself, 'under what regime did the son who had remained at home believe he lived?' Why undert the law of course! And he was jealous of the Grace his father extended to the Prodigal Son. But in reality, the son who remained at home could always have know the same Grace. And as a further elsson, read the book of Ruth. The story heats up when Ruth seeks grace by gleening in the harvested fields, to feed her and her mother-in-law, Naomi. It ends with Ruth and Obed living under Grace of the kinsman Redeemer, and there is no further chapter of Ruth crawling around in the fields picking up grain fallen during harvest, for she has right to the barn full of Grain, the storehouse of Grace.

46 posted on 08/22/2009 10:52:48 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN
"Is Jim Baker's adultery with a woman any less reprehensible than Ted Haggard's lying with a male prostitute?"

With this question as a foundation for trying to make claims to tolerate the degenerate so long as they are resisting temptation, you reveal the twisted nature of your own thinking! Instead of focusing upon the Deliverer, you would have us focus upon the abject failure of highly regarded, still unregenerate men who held themselves and their lusts as superior to the deliverance Jesus brings to the human soul by placing His Life int he human spirit!


My friend, why would the above question I posed by interpreted as TOLERATING the degenerate ? The asking of the question should imply that I DO NOT tolerate sexual degeneracy in both forms --- heterosexual or homosexual.

As for "highly regarded" men --- that is exactly my point -- NO ONE, NO MATTER HOW HIGHLY REGARDED IS IMMUNE FROM temptation.

The problem I have is this -- Christians mostly focus on ONE FORM of degeneracy (homosexual lust) and then take for granted the other form of degeneracy ( heterosexual lust ). That is a very unbalanced view. If you won't tolerate one, you should not tolerate the other.

As for focusing on the deliverer, of course we should. But to do that, we have to KNOW the sin He is delivering us from, and it is not simply sexual lust ( in both forms ), but lust of other things ( e.g. money, power, etc.).

And here's my point again --- pastors are tempted by ALL FORMS of lusts ( be it sexual or material ). When a pastor is tempted, but through God's grace, does not fall for the temptation, we do not then say that the pastor is not fit for his position. Therefore, if a pastor is tempted by sexual lust ( heterosexual or homosexual ) but through God's help, does not fall for it ( i.e. remains celibate, or is abstinent ), why should the pastor not be fit to continue being a pastor ? *THAT* is my point.
47 posted on 08/22/2009 8:36:33 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind; SoConPubbie; Alamo-Girl; Charles Henrickson
This will be my final post to you because I sense by discernment that you are serving the father of lies, as your effort to purposely dissemble what I wrote attests.

You quote partially from what I wrote in order to mischaracterize the message. THAT is a technique used extensively by deceivers and liars, as Satan used the technique int eh Garden to woo Eve.

Here is the entire sentence, then what you tried to lift out of context in order to mischaracterize the message:

My actual sentence: "With this question as a foundation for trying to make claims to tolerate the degenerate so long as they are resisting temptation, you reveal the twisted nature of your own thinking!"

You purposely left off the 'so long as they are resisting temptation'. Your plea is specious in that aspect of your twisting the issue to tolerate the unregenerate as leaders so long as they are not caught acting upon the lusts of their unregenerate soul. You apparently do not comprehend that the delivered soul is under the guidance of the Life of God, in the spirit of man. And under such guidance the moment of tempting is the near simultaneous moment of God's still small voice within instructing to flee from the temptation so it has no power to corrode His children! That still small voice is not heard by the unregenerate soul, yet you would dissemble the lesson in order to persuade tolerance for those unregenerates who are resisting acting on their temptations. The leadership in the Church must be by regenerate souls, not imitated by the unregenerate mightily resisting temptations. For you see, even the mighty fall to temptation since it is their nature, as your two examples so vividly illustrate. Yet you want to dissemble their lesson to diminish the power of God's Spirit in the human spirit as deliverer from temptation.

You are seeking to deceive by mischaracterizing the message which strikes at the heart of your effort to dissemble the actual issue of temptation and the victory over same which the Deliverer accomplishes when His Life is placed as the earnest of inheritance into the human spirit, which then teaches the human soul to be obedient to the righteousness of God.

You are deceptive and in being such you serve the father of lies, wittingly or unwittingly. You would rewrite The story of Ruth to have her once again out in the fields picking up fallen grains for sustenance when she is heir to the Grace in the Barn of the Kinsman Redeemer. You would rename Obed (worship) to be Jacob (twister).

Get thee behind me, Satan. Loose your grasp on the mind of this poster, SeekAndFind. Cease the conflation attempts in this discussion.

48 posted on 08/23/2009 9:40:24 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

The argument from SeekAndFind is a prime example of having a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof. The form of godliness is not regeneration, it is imitation. The pleading to tolerate the unregenerate and allow them to take leadership rolls is the essence of corruption. But then, so many do not comprehend what is 'the power thereof' so they substitute the effrot of men and women to resist temptation as an empowerment of human effort, which Satan can always sweep aside when he chooses the moment to do so. When 'tempted' to deny Jesus Risen, each of the Apostles--including Paul, under threat of death praised God for His deliverance from their temptation to deny Him and died, sometimes in a heinous, torturous way. THAT is the power of God, undenied.
49 posted on 08/23/2009 9:48:14 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: MHGinTN
The form of godliness is not regeneration, it is imitation. The pleading to tolerate the unregenerate and allow them to take leadership rolls is the essence of corruption. But then, so many do not comprehend what is 'the power thereof' so they substitute the effrot of men and women to resist temptation as an empowerment of human effort, which Satan can always sweep aside when he chooses the moment to do so. When 'tempted' to deny Jesus Risen, each of the Apostles--including Paul, under threat of death praised God for His deliverance from their temptation to deny Him and died, sometimes in a heinous, torturous way. THAT is the power of God, undenied.

Indeed. Thank you for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

50 posted on 08/23/2009 11:49:11 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-87 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson