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Officials Weigh Circumcision to Fight H.I.V. Risk
NY Times ^ | Published: August 23, 2009 | RONI CARYN RABIN

Posted on 08/23/2009 6:12:04 PM PDT by Gordon Greene

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To: Osage Orange

Can you suppose that maybe these villages had many traditional religious beliefs...but were generally secular in their morals.


I think that governmental genital mutilation should rest on something more than your wishful suppositions.


101 posted on 08/23/2009 8:41:11 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Typical "Rightwing Extremist")
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To: Morgana
These study that I read.....It wasn't apparent, nor likely that the subjects studied were "filthy disease ridden queers" as you put it..

They were "straight" although obviously very promiscuous........

fwiw-

102 posted on 08/23/2009 8:42:34 PM PDT by Osage Orange (A community organizer cannot bitch when communities organize..... - Rush Limbaugh)
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To: GladesGuru

check the literature.


Maybe you should cite the literature that support genital mutilation improving marital happiness.


103 posted on 08/23/2009 8:43:27 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Typical "Rightwing Extremist")
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To: Osage Orange

BS...


104 posted on 08/23/2009 8:45:42 PM PDT by calex59
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Comment #105 Removed by Moderator

To: antonico

BS to you also. Wash your dick, soap and water. There is no upside to circumcision. It is mutilation of infants and has no health value. It is done purely for religious reasons and so the hospital can tack on another charge when your child is born.


106 posted on 08/23/2009 8:48:40 PM PDT by calex59
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To: ColdWater
Oh...I'm sure it's out there somewhere.

I assure you I read it...and quite likely here on FR.

It was a real study with real results.....

But frankly I could care less...if anyone believes me.....because here on FR anymore...even if I sited page, paragraph and sentence with footnotes and government stamps...someone would question it's birth certificate.

You could look it up yourself...if you want. The net is your slave.

I'm tired....and worked a long 13 hrs today.

But I will give it a go tomorrow...and see if I can find it.

Being in the science field...it was an interesting study..and one that made sense to me.

FRegards,

107 posted on 08/23/2009 8:48:44 PM PDT by Osage Orange (A community organizer cannot bitch when communities organize..... - Rush Limbaugh)
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To: Beelzebubba
Listen beelze....

I never once said I supported "forced circumcision" ya dingbat! : ) I posted about a study that I read. That was it.

I'm tired....you go bark up another tree, eh.

I'm going to bed soon.......

Adios

108 posted on 08/23/2009 8:52:03 PM PDT by Osage Orange (A community organizer cannot bitch when communities organize..... - Rush Limbaugh)
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To: calex59
Whatever....

I read it...and it was a scientific study.

I can't help it...if you don't believe it.

Look it up for yourself.....

I will try and find it tomorrow....I'm tired.

Take care.........

109 posted on 08/23/2009 8:54:24 PM PDT by Osage Orange (A community organizer cannot bitch when communities organize..... - Rush Limbaugh)
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To: Morgana

Lol!!


110 posted on 08/23/2009 8:56:45 PM PDT by Osage Orange (A community organizer cannot bitch when communities organize..... - Rush Limbaugh)
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To: Osage Orange

I never once said I supported “forced circumcision” ya dingbat! : ) I posted about a study that I read. That was it.


Obama’s CDC supports forced circumcision. Others like me posted opposition. You fought us with your “study” (missing any link of citation).

You’re working with Obama now, dude.


111 posted on 08/23/2009 8:58:38 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Typical "Rightwing Extremist")
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To: Osage Orange

I read it...and it was a scientific study.


Oh. In that case, I’ll stop opposing government forced genital mutilation.


112 posted on 08/23/2009 8:59:53 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Typical "Rightwing Extremist")
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To: Dianna

I’m not circumcised, both my sons are. Not a one of us regrets our condition.

As for that poster who compared it to a hair cut or nail clipping - I’ve never had a painful hair cut or nail clipping. My hair and nails don’t bleed when I get them cut and so far they both grow back, though I do have a bald spot now, that is probably due to my age though.


113 posted on 08/23/2009 9:05:12 PM PDT by Graybeard58 ( Selah.)
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To: Beelzebubba
Lol!!

I fought ya? ha!!

Gimme some slack here, beelze!! Geesh...lol!! Ya killing me.......

I posted about a scientific study...that I read about, ya nut! : )

BTW...look up the "link" for yourself. (vbg)

I read about it maybe 2-4 years ago...if my memory serves me correctly.

Hell dude...I'd rather cut off my own foreskin again.....than work for Obama.

Gawd...what's in the H20 here tonight!?!?!?

ROFLOL!!

Good nite dude........

114 posted on 08/23/2009 9:05:32 PM PDT by Osage Orange (A community organizer cannot bitch when communities organize..... - Rush Limbaugh)
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To: Gordon Greene

Underlying any discussion of circumcision or not is the extreme reluctance of most circumcised males to even consider that their parents made the wrong decision for them, or that they made the wrong decision for their son(s).

I say teach boys good hygiene and let them decide when they’re adults, at least if the decision is not dictated by religious beliefs.


115 posted on 08/23/2009 9:09:44 PM PDT by Will88
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To: Tax-chick

Maybe start with the legislature! At least the statists.

And finish with the Executive.

Lol


116 posted on 08/23/2009 9:16:15 PM PDT by TFMcGuire (Life is tough. It is even tougher if you are stupid--John Wayne)
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To: Osage Orange

Cheerful and goofy isn’t persuasive, I’m afraid.


117 posted on 08/23/2009 9:20:03 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Typical "Rightwing Extremist")
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To: Gordon Greene
This whole thing reminds me of the incident several years ago when Texas Governor Rick Perry wanted to make vaccination against HPV mandatory for all school aged girls, implying that the girls would eventually become sexually promiscuous, contract the virus and come down with the potentially pre-cancerous viral infection of the female anatomy. The public outrage was understandably deafening - the legislature acted and struck down this proposal.

This was one of Perry's most embarrassing moments. Hopefully it will be for Ø as well.

Interestingly, there is now some growing evidence that Guardacil, the brand name for the vaccine, may cause dangerous side effects, including death. So much for the remedy that's worse than the disease.

118 posted on 08/23/2009 9:22:37 PM PDT by fwdude (It is time to water the Tree of Liberty.)
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To: Gordon Greene

There is an irony here....

—Where’s the Roe V Wade crowd when you need them?

How can the government leave women’s privates alone, yet go after men’s?


119 posted on 08/23/2009 9:22:40 PM PDT by bushwon ("If you think healthcare is expensive now, just wait till it is free! "~ PJ O'Rourke)
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To: Gordon Greene

It won’t work for many reasons, ne of which is Africa has other strain of HIV. It is rare in this country for men to get it from women, not so for Africa.


120 posted on 08/24/2009 12:23:35 AM PDT by PghBaldy (http://www.blackfive.net/main/2009/06/president-obama-visits-wounded-troops.html)
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To: Beelzebubba; calex59; ColdWater
LOL!!

Lack of understanding/comprehension...isn't helpful either I'm afraid....

Here's 3 scientific study's....

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=info:tX9wmCyjFC8J:scholar.google.com/&output=viewport&pg=1&hl=en

http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/19/3/693

http://journals.lww.com/aidsonline/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=2000&issue=10200&article=00018&type=fulltext

Let's just set the record straight for the folks here that can figure out what I did say from the beginning...and what I never said.

I did make the statement...that I circumcision has shown to reduce the chance of AIDS. Period.

I never said....I was for mandated/forced circumcision...

121 posted on 08/24/2009 5:41:29 AM PDT by Osage Orange (A community organizer cannot bitch when communities organize..... - Rush Limbaugh)
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To: Will88
the extreme reluctance of most circumcised males to even consider that their parents made the wrong decision for them

Not a lot I could do about it now, anyway...

122 posted on 08/24/2009 6:21:37 AM PDT by Onelifetogive (Liberals are always one genocide away from Utopia.)
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To: Onelifetogive
Not a lot I could do about it now, anyway...

Not being entirely flippant, but I expect that when science is able to grow new organs for transplant in the future, simpler parts replacement will also be available for those who might want it. That is unless Obamacare becomes law and removes too much of the profit incentive from medical research and from the services offered.

123 posted on 08/24/2009 6:28:33 AM PDT by Will88
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To: csmusaret
"They circumcised me when I was born, and I couldn’t walk for a year."

Mine left me babbling and incoherent. I wasn't able to speak in full sentences for a couple years!

124 posted on 08/24/2009 6:29:16 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Will88

Indeed. The only men who are in a position to compare are those that were circumcised after becoming sexually active. Even then a man who chose to have himself circumcised and wishes he hadn’t may refuse to admit that he regrets it.

I think their female partners should be asked as well, because there IS a difference.


125 posted on 08/24/2009 7:25:13 AM PDT by Hepsabeth
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To: Osage Orange

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=info:tX9wmCyjFC8J:scholar.google.com/&output=viewport&pg=1&hl=en

Correlation, not causation. See my earlier post. And Africa is an extremely different place that America, medically speaking. Worlds away in terms of HIV and AIDS and behaviors and medical context.

http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/19/3/693

Mere correlation easily explained by other factors. (The most superstitious primitives don’t circumcise, and also have sex practices that lead to AIDS, while the more modern cultures have more circumcision and more civilized sex practices. Or if you want a simple explanation, lack of access to medical advice and treatment correlates well with both AIDS and non-circumcision, even if those two things are entirely unrelated.

http://journals.lww.com/aidsonline/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=2000&issue=10200&article=00018&type=fulltext

Not a study, but a literature review. Found only association. See above.

See how interesting it is when you don’t accept “studies” unquestioningly?


126 posted on 08/24/2009 7:43:13 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Typical "Rightwing Extremist")
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To: Beelzebubba
I'm done with you.

I knew when I posted the studies...you would disagree. Go back and read my ORIGINAL post.

The FACT is you projected thoughts and deeds on me...that was flat out B.S. and any objective person could see that.

I've been pretty civil about this, and will refrain from dropping down to whatever level you are on....but like I said, I'm done with you.

You will have the last word.

Take it away, beelze.

: )

127 posted on 08/24/2009 7:57:51 AM PDT by Osage Orange (A community organizer cannot bitch when communities organize..... - Rush Limbaugh)
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To: Dianna
Before he was born, I saw no evidence compelling enough to take the risk with a newborn baby.

You made what you thought was the best decision for your son. My wife and I made the opposite decision for our sons believing that was in their best interests. The decision you made on behalf of your son is none of my business nor is the decision we made on behalf of our sons any of your business. Certainly, the government has no right to insert itself into the decision.

Frankly, I think that both sides on this debate greatly exaggerate their medical positions. Both sides greatly overstate the consequences of the decision on a minor medical procedure. I'm amazed how emotional some people get over this issue.

I don't think that male circumcision is a big deal, one way or the other. I do think that the issue of mandatory compliance (either way) is a big deal and all freedom-loving people should oppose.

128 posted on 08/24/2009 9:12:16 AM PDT by CommerceComet
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To: GodGunsGuts

This issue should make for some interesting signs at townhall meetings.


129 posted on 08/24/2009 1:00:57 PM PDT by Disambiguator
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To: Beelzebubba

“Gosh, you don’t think that cultures with different religious beliefs might not have different sexual practices and morals?”

Great point. Thanks fer makin’ me feel stoopid!

(I should have made that point)

GG


130 posted on 08/24/2009 5:08:51 PM PDT by Gordon Greene (www.fracturedrepublic.com - Jesus said, "I am THE way, THE truth and THE life." Any questions?)
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To: OldSpice

“I rely on reason, thank you very much.

I don’t have imaginary friends or overlords- especially the melodramatic kinds shaped by human imagination.”

You have some very solid points and some great insight... it’s a pity to ruin that with the outright slander of something others hold sacred. It’s well within your rights to believe as you wish. An answer that stopped at the first sentence would have been more genteel and answered the question quite well... your full answer went beyond reason and into the realm of the unreasonable. Your wish, I believe was to slap down the person with whom your argument began, but instead you struck all who hold a belief in God.

For a person who claims to rely on “reason” that’s seems to be uncharmingly uncharacteristic.


131 posted on 08/24/2009 5:19:52 PM PDT by Gordon Greene (www.fracturedrepublic.com - Jesus said, "I am THE way, THE truth and THE life." Any questions?)
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To: Beelzebubba

“Let’s let men decide for themselves, OK?

Instead of letting the government decide how much of your penis you get to keep?”

I agree with this addition... the parents have a right to decide as well.


132 posted on 08/24/2009 5:21:04 PM PDT by Gordon Greene (www.fracturedrepublic.com - Jesus said, "I am THE way, THE truth and THE life." Any questions?)
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To: Osage Orange
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=info:tX9wmCyjFC8J:scholar.google.com/&output=viewport&pg=1&hl=en

It is a subsciption service so I only saw the one page on AIDs which is NOT CANCER as we were discussing. One item did catch my attention was that Islamists had less AIDS than Christians. At least according to your source.

133 posted on 08/24/2009 6:19:48 PM PDT by ColdWater
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To: Osage Orange
http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/19/3/693

Another subscription service but your link did say that the study supports the hypothesis that lack of circumcism is an AIDs risk. Again, nothing on Cancer and no real correlation.

134 posted on 08/24/2009 6:22:33 PM PDT by ColdWater
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To: ColdWater
Weird....

Nothing that I looked up was subscription.

We were talking about cancer???

Dang....I am so confused now.

Not the first time................................

135 posted on 08/24/2009 6:24:15 PM PDT by Osage Orange (A community organizer cannot bitch when communities organize..... - Rush Limbaugh)
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To: Osage Orange
Here, again (AIDS, not CANCER), your sources show problems with the data and the Christian population

Among Muslims in Kigali, Rwanda [42], circumcision was associated with a protective effect (crude RR ˆ 0.18, CI 0.02±1.20). Little association was seen among Christians (crude RR ˆ 0.79, CI 0.50±1.23),

And they go on to say that this non-effect may be because Christians are circumcised post-puberty.

although this could be because, unlike Muslims, most Christians were circumcised post-puberty.

However, they continue on to show a pupulation where post-puberty circumcism has a higher effect!

In contrast, among men in rural Mwanza [22], circumcision before 15 years was associated with an increased risk of HIV (adjusted RR ˆ 1.50, CI 0.57±3.90), whereas circumcision at age 15 years or older was associated with a lower HIV risk (adjusted RR ˆ 0.37, CI 0.18±0.74). The reasons for these discrepant ®ndings are unclear, and further work on the effect of age at circumcision on HIV susceptibility is needed.

They do admit that self-reporting is not reliable.

Circumcision was determined by self-report in 16 studies, and by clinical examination in eight studies. For four further studies [35±38] the method of ascertainment was not clear. Validity of self-reported circumcision was assessed among factory workers in Mwanza [21]. Of the 111 men who had reported they were circumcised, only 69% were found to be so on examination. Among the 91 men who reported themselves as uncircumcised, 94% were found to be uncircumcised on examination. This suggests that selfreported circumcision may overestimate the proportion of men circumcised in this population,

Even though they don't mention such preventive measures as washing and keeping it zipped, they do admit that putting a circumcism program into place may not be the answer and may make the situation worse.

including the possibility that men may increase their risky sexual behaviour if they think circumcision confers a high degree of protection,

136 posted on 08/24/2009 6:42:25 PM PDT by ColdWater
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To: CommerceComet
I don't think that male circumcision is a big deal

What about female circumcision?

137 posted on 08/24/2009 6:43:38 PM PDT by ColdWater
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To: Osage Orange
I did get to the first article by clicking on 'suscriber service'. I didn't go that way earlier because when one sees 'subscriber' one is usually asked for a subscription fee.

The second led me to a message that the fee in $36 dollars a day for access. You are right. We were not talking about Cancer. I just got home and hadn't gone back to see which conversation you were responding to.

138 posted on 08/24/2009 6:54:46 PM PDT by ColdWater
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To: ColdWater
Second time I was right today..........

I must be on a roll.......

139 posted on 08/24/2009 7:27:32 PM PDT by Osage Orange (A community organizer cannot bitch when communities organize..... - Rush Limbaugh)
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To: Gordon Greene

I agree with this addition... the parents have a right to decide as well.


Like female clitoral circumcision?

Do babies (and fetuses) have the right to their own life and intact bodies?


140 posted on 08/24/2009 8:16:56 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Typical "Rightwing Extremist")
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To: Gordon Greene

Well, unnecessary mutilation of genitals to appease a god is pretty backward, however much one might want to spin the barbarity.


141 posted on 08/24/2009 10:22:47 PM PDT by OldSpice
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To: ColdWater
What about female circumcision?

On that, I am absolutely opposed. Male circumcision is a minor modification of the male genitalia which doesn't impede any normal function. Female circumcision truly is genital mutiliation which does impede the normal functioning of the genitalia. There is no medical reason supporting its practice and volumes of research opposing its practice.

I see male circumcision like getting ears pierced and female circumcision as getting an ear cut off. Because of the difference in the severity of the consequences, I think it is reasonable to treat the two situations in a different manner.

142 posted on 08/25/2009 10:06:38 AM PDT by CommerceComet
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To: OldSpice

Spin it how you like, but God was not just looking for a gift of appeasement. The laws and restrictions that were laid down to follow in the scriptures were more obviously related to preserving the people and their health than to appeasing God. The problem here is that the people were backward in the ways of health and self preservation in a lot of respects. The New Testament made it clear that a lot of the restrictions that were given were no longer necessary (like in what we could and could not eat). It’s also true that by then the ability to prepare food, cleanliness and health / medicine had also advanced. This is my own interpretation, but the texts support it.

You’re inability to see or understand a thing does not make it untrue... and a British accent, contrary to Hollywood’s presentation of it, does not prove one’s intelligence.

Just so you know, I have a British accent in my head so when I’m typing it does makes me feel smarter.

And, last night I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express.


143 posted on 08/25/2009 6:16:19 PM PDT by Gordon Greene (www.fracturedrepublic.com - Jesus said, "I am THE way, THE truth and THE life." Any questions?)
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To: earlJam; Cagey; Larry Lucido; Daffynition
I personally have never seen one of those things you guys walk around with that wasn't circumcised, but I'm quite certain I'd recoil in horror at the sight of one. LOL. (I crack myself up sometimes).

But that's just how I roll.

NTTAWWT

I need face. I need personality when it comes to those "things."

BTW, "How do you guys walk around with those things."

:)

Didn't read the full thread (yet) but I'm sure something was posted regarding Lainey.

Yes, Daffynition I know you're one of my kind I still had to ping ya.

144 posted on 08/25/2009 7:58:11 PM PDT by MotleyGirl70
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To: Gordon Greene

In my limited sample

Uncircumsised men make much better lovers.


145 posted on 08/25/2009 8:19:28 PM PDT by Chickensoup (minestra di pollo)
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To: MotleyGirl70
Thanks for the ping Mot ...I haven't had nearly enough coffee yet to be of help ...

Circumcision Peels the Potato; Neutering Juliennes It
Man: We had him circumcised.
Woman: Circumcised?
Man: Yeah, whatever you do with dogs. You know...
Woman: Neutered?
Man: Isn't that the same thing?

--Central Park

Overheard by: Nettle
via Overheard in New York, Aug 21, 2009

146 posted on 08/26/2009 4:04:22 AM PDT by Daffynition ("...... we are about to be czarred and fettered." ~ alterum ictum faciam.)
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To: Gordon Greene
three percent of the population is queer, so make every male pay for their future sins??? please...
147 posted on 09/08/2009 5:56:24 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist -ww- I AM JIM THOMPSON!)
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To: NurdlyPeon
I wonder if they might consider promoting the idea that men should not engage in anal sex.

Especially since there is no evolutionary viaility...

148 posted on 09/08/2009 7:52:12 PM PDT by Sir Francis Dashwood (Arjuna, why have you have dropped your bow???)
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To: the invisib1e hand

OK, here goes.

An old Indian chief notices that when his grandson was born, he was circumcised. The old chief decides he’s going to get circumcised too.

He goes to a doctor and asks what it will cost. The doctor says $500. The old chief says “Ug, too much.” So he goes to a second doctor. He asks the doctor what it will cost, the doctor says $250. The old chief says “Ug, too much.” So he goes to a third doctor. He asks the doctor what it will cost, the doctor says $100. The old chief says “Ug, too much.”

So the old chief decides he’s going to take the matter into his own hands, so to speak. He takes out his dong, puts it on a log, and gives it a mighty whack with his trusty tomahawk. When he looks at the result, he says “Ug, too much”.


149 posted on 09/08/2009 9:44:07 PM PDT by Flash Bazbeaux
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To: Gordon Greene

Circumsize all adult gay males first.


150 posted on 09/08/2009 10:08:08 PM PDT by a fool in paradise (Kennedycare?Recall that "Animal Farm" begins with a Socialist Revolution to honor Big Major's legacy)
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