Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Awesome new(old) engine tech...TURBO COMPOUNDING
Layover.com ^ | 2009-02-24 | ?

Posted on 08/23/2009 7:08:39 PM PDT by mamelukesabre

ARLINGTON, Va. —The Truck Writers of North America (TWNA) announced Detroit Diesel Corporation’s DD15 engine turbo compounding as the winner of its Technical Achievement Award for 2008 during TMC’s 2009 Annual Meeting in Orlando, Fla., Feb. 9-12.

(Excerpt) Read more at layover.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy
KEYWORDS: diesel; efficiency; engine; turbo
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-54 next last
Detroit Diesel has taken a WWII fighter plane technology and applied it to semi truck engines to enhance fuel economy and power.

Here's an explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo-compound_engine

And the link again: http://www.layover.com/news/article/detroit-diesel-dd15-engine-turbo-compounding-wins--15127.html

1 posted on 08/23/2009 7:08:40 PM PDT by mamelukesabre
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: mamelukesabre

Audi used Turbo-diesel technology to win several LeMans races.

Puegot won with turbo-diesel this year.

Nothing new here, except the possible popularity for passenger vehicles in the US big IF the government will allow it.

VW’s Jetta TDI is a 2.0 liter engine, which gives 29 mpg city and 40 mpg highway.


2 posted on 08/23/2009 7:15:52 PM PDT by truth_seeker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: truth_seeker

I don’t think you understand. This is not a typical turbo. Read the wikipedia article on “turbo-compounding”.


3 posted on 08/23/2009 7:21:27 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: mamelukesabre

Does this also help with turbo lag?


4 posted on 08/23/2009 7:22:51 PM PDT by umgud (Look to gov't to solve your everday problems and they'll control your everday life.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: mamelukesabre
Detroit Diesel has taken a WWII fighter plane technology and applied it to semi truck engines

That was my instantaneous thought when I saw the thread title.

5 posted on 08/23/2009 7:29:25 PM PDT by doorgunner69
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: mamelukesabre
The PRTs (Power Recovery Turbines) recovered about 20 percent of the exhaust energy (around 500 HP) that would have otherwise been wasted, but unfortunately had a negative effect on engine reliability, causing many aircraft mechanics of the day to nickname them "Parts Recovery Turbines" (and worse)

Increased complexity often equals increased maintenance.

6 posted on 08/23/2009 7:30:33 PM PDT by Pontiac (Your message here.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: umgud

No idea. But in the case of a semi truck, where engines don’t spin up much more than 2000RPMs, I think turbo lag is a moot point. This is more about fuel efficiency than anything else.

The fascinating thing about it is that a compound-turbo engine is the halfway step before going to a turbine engine. The boys at detroit diesel figured out that adding a compound turbo after the regular turbo increases the effectiveness of the new pollution control equipment required by the new stricter pollution regs.

I can’t wait to see what they come up with in the next 20 years.


7 posted on 08/23/2009 7:33:36 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Pontiac

Computers. they may make the difference between then and now. I guess time will tell.


8 posted on 08/23/2009 7:37:49 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: mamelukesabre

The boys at detroit diesel figured out that adding a compound turbo after the regular turbo increases the effectiveness of the new pollution control equipment required by the new stricter pollution regs.
**********************************************
You could say that but the way I read it this isn’t your typical compound turbo app where you’ve got turbo’s in “series” with the 2nd getting the last bit of power and engine heat and blowing into the intake ,, in this case the second turbo seems to be connected to a hydraulic pump/motor that drives the tranny output shaft .. the same way a/c compressors are remote mounted and hydraulically driven on many busses and the compressor side of the turbo is not mentioned in the article... it could go to the intake or it could go to waste ... the only thing for sure is that exhaust back pressure is greatly increased as EGR recirc is off the charts.


9 posted on 08/23/2009 7:43:57 PM PDT by Neidermeyer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: truth_seeker

“Nothing new here, except the possible popularity for passenger vehicles in the US big IF the government will allow it.”

Why should gov’mt have any say whatsoever in this at all?


10 posted on 08/23/2009 7:44:38 PM PDT by mo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: mamelukesabre

I have always wondered what happened to turbine auto engines. In the late 50’s Chrysler built 50 Turbine powered cars and put them on the road. Also Truck engines were built, not to mention Granitellie’s Indy cars. No auto since that I know of.
barbra ann


11 posted on 08/23/2009 7:47:14 PM PDT by barb-tex (Regardless of what you may have heard Sarah is not gone!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: barb-tex
I have always wondered what happened to turbine auto engines.

Expensive, poor mileage, poor emissions.

12 posted on 08/23/2009 7:48:41 PM PDT by ColdWater
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Neidermeyer

I think you are not understanding what a compound turbo is. A compound turbo doesn’t HAVE a compressor side.


13 posted on 08/23/2009 7:48:55 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: barb-tex
...not to mention Granitellie’s Indy cars.

If I'm not mistaken, the rules were re-written to bar turbines from the race.

14 posted on 08/23/2009 7:51:40 PM PDT by okie01 (THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA: Ignorance on Parade)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Neidermeyer

I agree that the 2nd turbine must be direct connected to the out put shaft as I don’t see how pumping more air into the intake will help any thing, as we don’t use all the output of the first turbo.
barbra ann


15 posted on 08/23/2009 7:58:49 PM PDT by barb-tex (Regardless of what you may have heard Sarah is not gone!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: mamelukesabre
Not a very good explanation.

Truck diesel engines are already "blowdown" type turbochargers, they don't use superchargers driven by the crankshaft as this wiki article suggests.

Apparently this "compound turbocharged engine" is just a method of using several turbochargers to increase pressures without increasing intake air/fuel flow.

Trucks with a single turbocharger are already running boost as high as 30 lbs, and when pulling a heavy load up steep roads engines are getting pretty hot as it is. Adding more boost will only make those combustion chambers and exhaust gases leaner and hotter.

That's probably the reason why Detroit diesel never got past the development stage with them.

16 posted on 08/23/2009 8:02:10 PM PDT by Nathan Zachary
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: mamelukesabre

Maybe by using compound turbochargers provides a way to get rid of some of the heat that single turbochargers create in boost air. The more heat you can get out of the air the better. The engine will run cooler and more efficiently, and have more power because the air density will be higher.


17 posted on 08/23/2009 8:15:38 PM PDT by Nathan Zachary
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Nathan Zachary

I am not understanding why nobody understands what this is.

Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo-compound_engine

The compound turbo DOES NOT ADD BOOST TO THE INTAKE! There is no compressor side to the turbo. The turbo shaft is connected directly to the drivetrain. The turbo is DIRECTLY DRIVING YOUR DRIVE WHEELS!

It’s not charging the intake.


18 posted on 08/23/2009 8:17:39 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: mamelukesabre
An early example: a turbo-compound engine collects all of the exhaust gasses and runs them through a turbine, with all of the power generated going back into the crankshaft and ultimately to the propeller. It differs from a turbo-supercharged engine, which uses exhaust gas energy to increase the pressure of incoming air. Work on this particular engine began in about 1944 and continued until 1946, when Allison asked that it be canceled because turbine engines had greater promise.

Allison V-1710


19 posted on 08/23/2009 8:24:43 PM PDT by Niteflyr ("Just because something is free doesn't mean it's good for you".)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: mamelukesabre

LMAO @connected to the wheels. No it isn’t. Where the heck do you see that?


20 posted on 08/23/2009 8:25:25 PM PDT by Nathan Zachary
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: truth_seeker

They won’t, they don’t want to increase the supply of diesel in the country.

This goes against the strategy of “Energy Denial” that the libs are executing.

Even though it would be more efficient, they will oppose it because it defeats a bigger goal of destroying the average persons’ energy freedom. If you can get better mileage and diesel’s cost stays the same, you will drive more and this is not good. If they make more diesel so you can all drive more diesel cars and thus be freer, and even though pollution will be down because it’s cleaner now, they don’t want us to have all this energy we can use.

They believe we are using too much, and so they oppose cleaner technology because that allows us to use more without harming the environment (control is important, not the environment); they oppose new exploration and development of US sources of oil and coal and gas (because control is important, not energy independence OR energy abundance); and they oppose the cleanest and newest designs in nuclear (because control is important, not the environment, cheap energy, or clean energy).

They are in the process of taking us down as a superpower. They are forcing us to remain dependent on foreign energy, wasting our money on windmills, they are tanking the currency that will ultimately lead to hyperinflation by printing so much of it but there’s nothing backing it.

We have to get the country back fast or it’s all over and global government and national sovereignty are gone. These people are traitors and need to be exposed as such. This isn’t just incompetence, it’s deliberate destruction and takeover.


21 posted on 08/23/2009 8:25:40 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Nathan Zachary

Ok, here’s what’s happening. a turbo increases power by boosting the intake. Doing so increases the required fuel to maintain proper fuel air ratio. A compound turbo boosts power without any increase in fuel demand. How? because a compound turbo doesn’t boost intake pressure. It dumps all it’s energy directly to the crankshaft. More power without more fuel or more heat or more manifold pressure.

I think you should understand it now, right?

In WWII, they gave up on the compound turbo because they realized the output shaft of the turbo was producing more power than the output shaft of the engine. So they decided to get rid of the engine all together and just have the turbo...

That’s what we call a TURBOPROP.


22 posted on 08/23/2009 8:25:42 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: mamelukesabre
Yup...probably the most popular aviation turbo-compound was the Wright-Cyclone 3350..


23 posted on 08/23/2009 8:29:58 PM PDT by Niteflyr ("Just because something is free doesn't mean it's good for you".)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Nathan Zachary

If you are dumping mechanical energy directly to the crankshaft, what are you doing?

Answer: Driving the #$^& wheels. Or if it is a plane, you are driving the prop.

Just read the wiki article like I said.


24 posted on 08/23/2009 8:30:02 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Niteflyr

The last of the turbo compounds were used in the final versions of civilian piston airliners (before the conversion to the turbine technology of today)...and also notably the B-29 Superfortress bomber...


25 posted on 08/23/2009 8:35:38 PM PDT by Niteflyr ("Just because something is free doesn't mean it's good for you".)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Niteflyr

That connection at the crank is NOT turbine power going back to the crankshaft, That’s one stage of this compound turbine POWERED by the crank. you can see the boost side tubing running to the intake side top rear of the engine, as well as the exhaust side pipes running to the back of the unit from both sides of the engine to a “t” joint. The crank drives an secondary turbo charger which compresses the compressed air from the primary turbocharger at the rear.


26 posted on 08/23/2009 8:38:46 PM PDT by Nathan Zachary
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: mamelukesabre
Sorry, your not dumping mechanical energy to the crankshaft with ANY exhaust driven turbocharger.

Your compressing air and dumping into the intake. period.

It's not a jet engine, it's a piston engine.

27 posted on 08/23/2009 8:42:17 PM PDT by Nathan Zachary
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: mamelukesabre

and look at that wiki page, and read it yourself. see the pic? thats a Nomad engine. See that pointy thing after the turbo? thats the air intake for the compressor side of the unit.


28 posted on 08/23/2009 8:44:09 PM PDT by Nathan Zachary
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Nathan Zachary
"Sorry, your not dumping mechanical energy to the crankshaft with ANY exhaust driven turbocharger."

But a lot of diesel mechanics would laugh if you tried.

29 posted on 08/23/2009 8:47:20 PM PDT by Nathan Zachary
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Nathan Zachary

the secondary turbine’s output is hydrodynamically coupled to the engine’s drive gears.

I know what that means. i would think you should be able to read it and understand what it says too.


30 posted on 08/23/2009 8:50:00 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Nathan Zachary

Are you sure it’s not the exhaust outlet?


31 posted on 08/23/2009 8:52:06 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: NVDave

ping


32 posted on 08/23/2009 8:59:43 PM PDT by investigateworld (Abortion stops a beating heart)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Nathan Zachary
Truck diesel engines are already "blowdown" type turbochargers, they don't use superchargers driven by the crankshaft as this wiki article suggests.

Huh? Detroit Diesel engines have a LONG history of using "roots" superchargers, in fact the 4/71 and 6/71 "roots blowers" (which later made their way to hot rods and drag racers) were standard on Detroit Diesels (the 8/71 and larger were aftermarket, rather than GMC manufactured.)

Take another look at the design. The "compound turbocharger" is NOT used to increase the intake charge density. What's happening here that the exhaust gasses from a 2 stroke engine power a turbine whos output shaft is coupled to the engine's output shaft, thereby using some of the wasted power from the exhaust gasses and using that to augment the output of the 2 stroke engine.

Regarding the compound turnbsharger, this has nothing to do with the intake side.

Mark

33 posted on 08/23/2009 9:02:50 PM PDT by MarkL (Do I really look like a guy with a plan?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Nathan Zachary
Here's the direct quote from Wiki-

A Turbo-compound engine is a reciprocating engine that employs a blowdown turbine to recover energy from the exhaust gases.

The turbine is usually mechanically connected to the crankshaft but electric and hydraulic systems have been investigated as well.

The turbine increases the output of the engine without increasing its fuel consumption, thus reducing the specific fuel consumption. The turbine is referred to as a blowdown turbine (or power-recovery turbine), as it recovers the energy developed in the exhaust manifold during blowdown, that is the first period of the exhaust process when the piston still is on its expansion stroke (this is possible since the exhaust valves open before bottom dead center).

When a blowdown turbine is attached to an engine it will not reduce power due to exhaust gas flow restriction,

since a blow down turbine is a velocity turbine not a pressure turbine as is a turbo supercharger.

Mark

34 posted on 08/23/2009 9:12:29 PM PDT by MarkL (Do I really look like a guy with a plan?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Nathan Zachary

You can see at this link:

http://www.pilotfriend.com/aero_engines/images2/40.jpg

The exhaust-driven turbine is not used to drive a compressor for the intake. Instead it is coupled to the output shaft and adds to the torque produced by the “main” engine.


35 posted on 08/23/2009 9:17:49 PM PDT by WayneM (Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: mamelukesabre

Just sounds like the exhaust gases drive a turbine which is hydro-
dynamically connected to the drive gears..using waste energy
to help drive the wheels...decent idea.

I suppose this could work with a gasoline engine also. Anyone know
about that ?

How about using the waste heat to power stirling engines which
help recharge batteries in a hybrid?
I wonder if anyone has ever tried this combination:

Hybrid Car
High pressure(higher than normal diesel in diesel system)
and same in gas engine
Solar cell array on roof,trunklid, engine hood to recharge batteries.
Stirling engines to recover all waste heat(exhaust, cabin temp)
to recharge batteries
Superoverdrive transmission
Low final drive ratio
Super low coefficient of drag
I wonder if they could apply such considerations on the
new Volt.
Anybody here with a car engineering degree who would know
about these things?


36 posted on 08/23/2009 9:28:02 PM PDT by Getready (Wisdom is more valuable than gold and diamonds, and harder to find.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Getready

Turbosteamer. BMW is building them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbosteamer


37 posted on 08/23/2009 9:31:17 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: barb-tex

If I remember correctly, the exhaust melted the asphalt pavement when they came to a stop.


38 posted on 08/23/2009 10:51:51 PM PDT by nightwalker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: WayneM
The exhaust-driven turbine is not used to drive a compressor for the intake. Instead it is coupled to the output shaft and adds to the torque produced by the “main” engine.

Interesting. I wonder if that recovered exhaust energy would be better utilized by dedicating that output shaft to, say, turning a generator in a hybrid application? Sounds like a natural for a large diesel-electric application - public transit buses, perhaps.

Seems like the configuration needed to return that energy directly to the engine's crankshaft (as per your linked image) would be a challenge in an automotive application. You'd likely have to tie it in to the front end of the crank, rather than the rear (as in aircraft applications).

39 posted on 08/24/2009 4:39:21 AM PDT by Charles Martel (NRA Lifetime Member since 1984; TSRA rookie)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Getready

“I suppose this could work with a gasoline engine also. Anyone know about that ?”

When I was a kid we could fire a potato out of the exhaust pipe of my neighbors’ car. Does that count? ;-)


40 posted on 08/24/2009 5:09:37 AM PDT by EEDUDE
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Nathan Zachary
mamelukesabre is correct. You are wrong. They are taking the exhaust gasses to drive a turbine which coverts the exhaust energy to mechanical. It doesn't connect to another compressor to compress the intake air like a turbocharger. The output of the compound turbo is converted mechanically and is effectively added to the mechanical output of the engine.
41 posted on 08/24/2009 8:04:34 AM PDT by Lx
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Nathan Zachary
"The turbine is usually mechanically connected to the crankshaft but electric and hydraulic systems have been investigated as well."....

That is generally the definition of turbo compounding...

42 posted on 08/24/2009 10:02:20 AM PDT by Niteflyr ("Just because something is free doesn't mean it's good for you".)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Lx
They are taking the exhaust gasses to drive a turbine which coverts the exhaust energy to mechanical.

You are correct sir...

43 posted on 08/24/2009 10:03:21 AM PDT by Niteflyr ("Just because something is free doesn't mean it's good for you".)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: okie01
Actually. like the no child left behind act they passed a no offy left behind rule, which restricted the the air intake to make them non competitive. barbra ann
44 posted on 08/24/2009 11:07:07 AM PDT by barb-tex (Regardless of what you may have heard Sarah is not gone!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: mamelukesabre

Ok, but will I get more chicks?


45 posted on 08/24/2009 11:12:13 AM PDT by Pistolshot (Brevity: Saying a lot, while saying very little.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: mamelukesabre
Folks, if you do not know who Paul Lamar is go here....

http://www.rotaryeng.net/

He has been a quest for a while to Turbo-Compound a Rotary (Wankel).

His reasoning is the CW-3350's had issues with the exhaust valves. Rotaries do not have exhaust valves.

Check this page out as well: http://www.rotaryeng.net/turbo-compound.html

Also.....

Check this out, Pratt and Whitney Canada's Application for a Patent...Turbo-Compounded Rotary

http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=EP&NR=1611331&KC=&FT=E


46 posted on 08/24/2009 11:45:48 AM PDT by taildragger (Palin / Mulally 2012)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: taildragger
Also go here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy_Jd5kewbM
47 posted on 08/24/2009 11:50:32 AM PDT by taildragger (Palin / Mulally 2012)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: taildragger

August 2009 Issue of Kitplanes.... Paul Lamar wrote a great article on Turbo-Compounding...


48 posted on 08/24/2009 11:52:11 AM PDT by taildragger (Palin / Mulally 2012)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: nightwalker

Yes, and the throttle response was......lagging.


49 posted on 08/24/2009 12:06:04 PM PDT by Vinnie (You're Nobody 'Til Somebody Jihads You)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: barb-tex

Well put.


50 posted on 08/24/2009 5:03:56 PM PDT by okie01 (THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA: Ignorance on Parade)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-54 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson