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Risks of the Swine Flu Vaccine (Experimental adjuvant squalene implicated in autoimmune disorders)
http://www.thenewamerican.com ^ | Thursday, 03 September 2009 | Alex Newman

Posted on 09/03/2009 10:17:06 PM PDT by Maelstorm

The coming swine flu vaccination campaign is expected to begin in October. But with vaccine safety tests being fast-tracked under “public health emergency” rules and the use of some questionable ingredients, many health experts are warning about a myriad of risks associated with the vaccine and the importance of being educated.

“Right now, you need to become educated about vaccination, influenza, vaccine risks and the public health laws in your state,” warned Barbara Loe Fisher, the president of the National Vaccine Information Center. “You need to find out what your rights and options are under new public health laws that may require you — and your children — to be vaccinated or quarantined.”

So what are the risks of the swine flu vaccines? It depends on who you ask.

“There can be no argument that unnecessary mass injection of millions of children with a vaccine containing an adjuvant known to cause a host of debilitating autoimmune diseases is a reckless, dangerous plan,” explained Dr. Joseph Mercola, a health activist, author and strong critic of the swine flu immunization program. He proceeds to provide evidence justifying his concerns.

The adjuvant Mercola is referring to is based on an oil known as squalene. It is used to reduce the amount of viral antigen required in vaccines, which allows companies to produce more vaccines for less money at a faster rate.

But according to countless medical professionals and experts, using it in immunizations is a bad idea. It is also going to be somewhat experimental. There isn’t a single vaccine containing squalene that is approved for use in America, according to Meryl Nass, M.D., who notes that Novartis and GlaxoSmithKline will make use of it as a “novel feature of the H1N1 vaccines.”

Squalene is a naturally occurring oil, found in the human brain, joints, and other places. The problem, according to some experts, comes when it is administered in a vaccine. They claim that in this circumstance, the body creates antibodies to attack the oil. And it is believed by many to be responsible for the wide variety of symptoms that were called collectively "Gulf War Syndrome," a sometimes debilitating set of phenomena present in a large number of U.S. military personnel who served during the first war in Iraq.

“The substantial majority (95%) of overtly ill deployed GWS patients had antibodies to squalene. All (100%) GWS patients immunized for service in Desert Shield/Desert Storm who did not deploy, but had the same signs and symptoms as those who did deploy, had antibodies to squalene,” noted a Tulane Medical School study published in Experimental Molecular Pathology. “In contrast, none (0%) of the deployed Persian Gulf veterans not showing signs and symptoms of GWS have antibodies to squalene.” The study has been challenged, but it is still widely cited.

Another study published in the American Journal of Pathology highlighted problems with the use of the substance as well. One injection of squalene into rats led them to develop what humans know as rheumatoid arthritis, or “chronic, immune-mediated joint-specific inflammation.”

Another potential risk from the vaccine was highlighted by Dr. Wolfgang Wodarg, the chairman of the health committee in the German parliament and the European Council. As reported in an article entitled "German health expert’s flu warning — Does virus vaccine increase risk of cancer?" in the German newspaper Bild, “the nutrient solution for the vaccine consists of cancerous cells from animals,” and according to Wodarg, "we do not know if there could be an allergic reaction.”

Johannes Löwer, the president of the German government’s Paul Ehrlich Institute, also warned that the side effects of the shot could be worse than the actual swine flu, according to the article.

Thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative that will also be used in the swine flu vaccine, has come under fire from a broad array of medical experts. Despite a number of studies that concluded the substance does not cause autism, there are critics of the various studies. Also critics point to widespread concern about other mercury-related complications.

The Food and Drug Administration actually told pharmaceutical companies to stop using the substance in early childhood vaccines. But many still contain it. And the swine flu vaccine will be no exception, though Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease, said that because of concerns over the preservative, there will be some vaccines available without it.

Critics, however, are still not satisfied. "We don't have adequate safety studies on this vaccine before we are moving forward to market," noted Lyn Redwood, the president of a non-profit organization called SafeMinds (Sensible Action For Ending Mercury-Induced Neurological Disorders) dedicated to investigating and raising awareness about the risks associated with mercury in medicinal products. "I'm really not convinced that we know for sure that the risk of the disease outweighs the risk of the vaccine, especially since this is a brand new additive that we have never used before in combination with thimerosal."

But thimerosal, squalene, and cancerous animal cells are far from the only concerns. Among other potentially dangerous chemicals and substances often found in influenza vaccines are formaldehyde, antibiotics, and even ethylene glycol, known as anti-freeze. Various health experts have varying opinions about the effects of all of these additives, but many doctors still warn against them.

Another cause for concern surfaced in the United Kingdom when the government’s Health Protection Agency sent a letter to senior neurologists warning that the new swine flu vaccine is linked to the deadly nerve disease known as Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS), the Daily Mail reported in an article entitled "Swine flu jab link to killer nerve disease: Leaked letter reveals concern of neurologists over 25 deaths in America." The risk of contracting the paralysis-inducing illness was reportedly eight times greater in those who received the infamous government swine flu vaccine of 1976, which killed more people than the actual virus. The leaked letter warned recipients to keep an eye open for GBS and report it immediately.

Many vaccine opponents go much further than highlighting the potential risks, with some making unsubstantiated claims that it will be used as a tool for mass depopulation or eugenics. Some point to anecdotal evidence like comments by Obama’s science czar, who called for drastic population reduction methods in a book called Ecoscience. But what is certain is that the vaccine carries risks — a lot of them according to experts.

The people who seem totally convinced about the inoculations’ safety and efficacy — or who are at least downplaying the potential risks and side effects — appear to be mostly government bureaucrats or people with vested interests. Virtually every medicinal product carries some risk, and these vaccines are no different. To say otherwise is disingenuous.

What is important is that the population be educated about the potential complications and then decide with their families and healthcare providers what approach they would like to take, taking into consideration the risks of the vaccine and of the swine flu. It should be an individual decision without bureaucratic interference or propaganda.


TOPICS: Front Page News; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: adjuvant; experiment; flu; h1n1; influenza; mercola; sourcetitlenoturl; squalene; swin; swineflu; vaccine
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Sometimes the "cure" is more of a risk.
1 posted on 09/03/2009 10:17:06 PM PDT by Maelstorm
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To: Maelstorm

ping


2 posted on 09/03/2009 10:18:29 PM PDT by dit_xi
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To: Maelstorm

Count me out!


3 posted on 09/03/2009 10:19:08 PM PDT by ExTexasRedhead
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To: Maelstorm

mark


4 posted on 09/03/2009 10:21:06 PM PDT by varina davis (Life is not a dress rehearsal)
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To: ExTexasRedhead
Count me out!

Me too. I've never understood why people get flu shots.

5 posted on 09/03/2009 10:22:11 PM PDT by Cobra64
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To: Maelstorm

The entire purpose of an adjuvant is to create an immune response. It does this because your body assumes, correctly, that it is harmful. The risks should be weighed of course but this influenza A is simply not that deadly at this point. IMO of course. Squalene is used to induce arthritis in small mammal studies BTW.


6 posted on 09/03/2009 10:26:13 PM PDT by allmost
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To: ExTexasRedhead

I’m not worried about the swine flue. I figure I and my family have been exposed over and over again since I travel so much. I just don’t understand the hype around this. I understood it when it appeared there is a risk it could manifest differently than the normal flu but it does not appear to be the case at. Most people appear to have been immune or have developed immunity quickly with the vast bulk of cases being very mild to the point of no being noticed. Also for those worry-worts out there if you fly on a plane, you have probably been exposed, if you’ve went to an amusement park or traveled significantly then you have probably been exposed when means you already have immunity.

This thing is being rushed way too quickly and there is no real justification for it. It reminds me of episodes from the Xfiles. Why the rush?


7 posted on 09/03/2009 10:28:10 PM PDT by Maelstorm (Party like it is 1776)
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To: Maelstorm

For what it’s worth, from WIKI: All higher organisms produce squalene, including humans. It is a hydrocarbon and a triterpene. Squalene is a natural and vital part of the synthesis of cholesterol, steroid hormones, and vitamin D in the human body [1]


8 posted on 09/03/2009 10:35:08 PM PDT by matthew fuller (Coming to America- All the Culture, Glory and Beauty of Zimbabwe!)
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To: allmost

Yeah and it was used in the Anthrax vaccine. Our military were the guinea pigs and there were documented adverse reactions. I’m not anti-vaccine, I had my shots as a kid and my kids have had theirs without a problem but I do not like this rushing around setting the stage for vaccination with what are experimental vaccines with a known autoimmune antagonist. This could lead to millions of children and others with chronic autoimmune diseases.

“What Squalene Does to Rats

Oil-based vaccination adjuvants like squalene have been proved to generate concentrated, unremitting immune responses over long periods of time.[vi]

A 2000 study published in the American Journal of Pathology demonstrated a single injection of the adjuvant squalene into rats triggered “chronic, immune-mediated joint-specific inflammation,” also known as rheumatoid arthritis.[vii]

The researchers concluded the study raised questions about the role of adjuvants in chronic inflammatory diseases.”


9 posted on 09/03/2009 10:36:11 PM PDT by Maelstorm (Party like it is 1776)
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To: Maelstorm
I watched a press conference on youtube a few weeks back and the officials weren't even narrowing down squalene. The term was ‘experimental adjuvants’, plural, in regards to these swine flu vaccines. Also plural. No description or allusion to what the other chemicals might be. I'm not anti vaccine either. My kids have had their shots as well, but I agree this rushed hysteria is wrong.
10 posted on 09/03/2009 10:48:17 PM PDT by allmost
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To: Maelstorm
>>Yeah and it was used in the Anthrax vaccine.
 
Correct.

Vaccine A tells a story of betrayal, of medical arrogance flourishing in the absence of public accountability, shielded by an unquestioning deference to national security. Investigative journalist Gary Matsumoto reveals that thousands of young men and women in the U.S. Armed Forces were subjected to medical experiments that were conducted without their knowledge or consent-and that have put them in grave danger. Not only have military scientists performed unethical experiments on U.S. and British soldiers; not only are they refusing to admit either the experiments or the effects they caused; not only are they continuing to use a deadly substance in experimental vaccines-this substance is being developed for use in vaccines intended for mass immunization around the globe. In an alarming narrative, Vaccine A recounts this scientific tragedy-from the U.S. Army's tradition of medical experimentation on soldiers through to the present, where the consequences of these experimental vaccines, if administered to civilians, will be unimaginably devastating.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/046504400X
 
Preview on Google Books:


11 posted on 09/03/2009 10:52:56 PM PDT by LomanBill (Animals! The DemocRats blew up the windmill with an Acorn!)
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To: RepublicanChick

ping


12 posted on 09/03/2009 11:02:12 PM PDT by kara2008 (The Answer to 1984 is 1776 - Restore the Republic)
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To: Maelstorm

Most importantly, a 2006 law gives complete immunity to the pharmaceutical companies for the use of these vaccines under the conditions of “medical emergency” that has been declared for the H1N1/variants.

That’s why it’s being rushed - the “emergency” is used not only to force mass innoculations, but also to invoke the legal immunity law for the vaccine makers.

Which means, of course, that there is zero money put into safety testing. After all, what’s the point if they can’t be sued? Instead, the results of the mass inocculations will BE the “safety testing.”


13 posted on 09/04/2009 12:17:10 AM PDT by Talisker (When you find a turtle on top of a fence post, you can be damn sure it didn't get there on it's own.)
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Comment #14 Removed by Moderator

To: Maelstorm

The sickest I’ve been with a virus was after I had taken the only flu shot I’ve ever taken. I’ll never do it again.


15 posted on 09/04/2009 12:35:15 AM PDT by LucyJo
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To: Cobra64

Autoimmune pancreatitis seems to be a side effect.


16 posted on 09/04/2009 2:00:40 AM PDT by x_plus_one (In Chicago, the dead vote twice, in St. Louis they get elected. Require A Picture ID for voting)
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To: Maelstorm

I am not taking it. I’ll take that risk.


17 posted on 09/04/2009 2:58:58 AM PDT by Sprite518
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To: raygun; Admin Moderator

Your bizarre personal abuse of another Freeper has been reported.


18 posted on 09/04/2009 4:45:48 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: Maelstorm
I'm not anti vaccine, I'm anti Flu Vaccine.
I got two Flu Shots in my life. Both times I got sick.

So if the goobermint is going to make these H1NI shots 'mandatory', and under threat of detention and relocation, they better recall the 101st and 82nd Airborne Divisions from Afghanistan first 'cause I AIN'T gettin' one.

19 posted on 09/04/2009 5:15:44 AM PDT by Condor51 (The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits)
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To: Condor51

Every time I post that I got sick for a month after each of my two flu shots, FReepers tell me I’m nuts.

My husband, my children and myself will skip the shots.

We did the baby shots, but that’s it.


20 posted on 09/04/2009 6:12:50 AM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: Maelstorm

Well, If I have to have an adjuvant, give me ethylene glycol. All I have to do to keep that from hurting me is to stay drunk for a day or so. The others I have no idea what’ll cure me.


21 posted on 09/04/2009 6:59:45 AM PDT by AFPhys ((Praying for our troops, our citizens, that the Bible and Freedom become basis of the US law again))
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To: Maelstorm

From what I understand, the risk of getting Guilliane Barre (sp?) is reduced after getting hte swine flu shot- not increased- someone put hte stats up on another thread, and it appeared that we would actually have less of a chance of getting Barre than if we did nothing


22 posted on 09/04/2009 7:22:48 AM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: Maelstorm

[[This thing is being rushed way too quickly and there is no real justification for it. It reminds me of episodes from the Xfiles. Why the rush?]]

Because it’s estimated that 60,000 more people in the US alone could die from htis flu than regular flu, and the numbers being affected aroudn the world are staggaring- this is a serious flu, and will really start to take off i nthe next couple of weeks, months as kids get back to school


23 posted on 09/04/2009 7:25:43 AM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: AFPhys

I’m not sure about the science behind this. I’ve been looking through the journals and I’m not sure squalene is the culprit but calcium phosphate which is used by Novartis as an adjuvant has been shown to illicit immune responses in tests up to 4 weeks after injection. We have calcium phosphate in our bodies, it is a component of arthritic fluid. The problem is that there is a lot we do not know. A few years back there was a contaminated batch of L-Tryptophan, normally a harmless amino acid led to severe and chronic autoimmune diseases in a number of people. These flu vaccines are marginal at best and I’m concerned especially with the break neck speed this is being put together with China churning out vaccine for the world that we can be certain that short cuts are being taken and for what? There is no evidence suggesting this flu is going to be a “killer flu”. Any doubts about that should have been resolved earlier in the year when the fears and hype turned out to be not true and many of the early reported cases of swine flu deaths turned out not even to be related to the flu.


24 posted on 09/04/2009 7:29:45 AM PDT by Maelstorm (Party like it is 1776)
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For htose saying htey ‘got sick after gettign hte flu shot’- the flu shots do NOT prevent hte flu- they lessen the effects of the flu- you can still get sick fro mthe flu, but mostly it will be ‘mild’ even if you still feel quite ill- you may very well have been much much sicker had you not had hte flu shot-

Now, some people CAN have a reactio nto hte flu shot itself- and for htose people, it’s not advisable to take hte flu shot- but hte overwhelming majority of people have no symptoms from the shots, and the actual flu doesn’t present a problem when they contract it.

Noone is saying you didn’t get sick, but keep an open mind as to why you got sick- was it an actual reaction to hte flu shot? or did you end up getting hte flu, and hte shot didn’t really help? Or did it actually help, but you still got somewhat sick? Again- the flu shot doesn’t prevent hte flu- and people’s reaction to hte flu after gettign hte shot will vary in severity, some barely noticing it, some getting pretty sick despite gettign hte shot, but again, these folks may have been much much sicker had they not got hte shot.

I spose there’s a minority of peopel who are blessed with good immune systems who rarely do get hte lfu every year, but who, after gettign the shoit, do infact get the flu pretty bad- but for htose people to suggest that peopel refrain from takign the shot because they personally got sick after the shot, is to ignore the stats that do infact prove the flu shots, on whoile, help millions of people avoid gettign hte full-blown flu and riskign death- 30,000 people a year die from the regular flu, and htis number would probably be much much hihger IF we all abstained fro mgettign hte flu shot


25 posted on 09/04/2009 7:36:19 AM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: Maelstorm

[[Any doubts about that should have been resolved earlier in the year when the fears and hype turned out to be not true and many of the early reported cases of swine flu deaths turned out not even to be related to the flu.]]

Some may have died from other things- hpowever, it’s beyond dispute now that peopel ARE dying from this flu, and hteir l ungs are showing massive damage because of htis flu- let’s be objective here- give hte whole story- not just those isolated cases that turned out not to be the flu but were mistakenly attributed to hte flu-

I’m not ‘pro-flu-shot’, but I’m also goign to annalyze things objectively, and weigh the benifits with the costs because again, this swine flu is a very serious issue, and if we simply beleive the isolated cases represent the whole story, and refuse the hsots, we could be helping to spread a major pandemic- endangering others who haven’t got access to hte shots- Let’s wait until more and better stats are out htere and take a good honest objective look at the benifits vs the risks


26 posted on 09/04/2009 7:41:40 AM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: netmilsmom
Every time I post that I got sick for a month after each of my two flu shots, FReepers tell me I’m nuts.

You're not nuts. And I'd say THEY never had a Flu Shot.

I had two Flu shots, the 1st when I was 50 and I got the Flu from it. A few years later I got my second one -- I figured the 1st was just a fluke, bad luck, and I was at the Doc's office anyway so what the heck get a 'free' Flu Shot -- I got the Flu again.

And when I got my 2nd shot I worked with a bunch of 'old fogies' like me, 55+ who all got Flu shots. They all said they 'got sick' from the shots too, it lasted about three days: Muscle Aches, Joint Pains & a Fever - THAT'S the Flu.

27 posted on 09/04/2009 8:03:25 AM PDT by Condor51 (The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits)
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To: Condor51

Exactly!!!!

With that, my poor hubby had site injection pain that was unbelievable. He’s a computer guy and had problems working a mouse because of the muscle pain in his upper arm. That lasted two weeks.

Sorry, in my mind that means something is wrong.


28 posted on 09/04/2009 8:30:14 AM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: netmilsmom

Again- the flu shot can’t give someone hte flu

Myth: “”The flu shot can give you the flu.”

Truth: The flu shot cannot cause the flu. Flu vaccine does not protect you from other viruses that sometimes feel like the flu. If you get the flu or get sick after a flu shot, it is because you were actually exposed to someone with the flu virus prior to receiving the shot.

Myth: “Even if I get a flu shot, I can still get a mild case of the flu.”

This can happen, but the flu shot usually protects most people from the flu. However, the flu shot will not protect you from other viruses that can cause illnesses that sometimes feel like the flu.

http://www.immunizenc.com/FluFactsMyths.htm

This is an important point, because each year there are several flus that go around at one time, and IF someoen becomes ill after getting the flu shot- usually hteir immediate reaction is ‘well the lfu shot didn’t prevent me from gettign hte flu’ but the fact is that it may very well be that you ended up with another flu unrelated to the flu that you were protected from with hte flu shot- You CAN get anopther totally unrelated flku at hte very same time that you get the lfu shot

At any one time, there are sebveral flus circulating aroudn the country, and states usually end up with several flus when ‘flu season’ hits- the flu shot usually only protects agaisnt htem ost serious flus- not general flus that peopel don’t usually have a problem with- so it’s quite possible those hwo got ‘the flu’ after gettign the flu shot either got a mild reaction to hte actual flu the shot protected them agaisnt getting full blown, OR they got a wholly different flu for which the vaccine wasn’t meant to protect htem from


29 posted on 09/04/2009 8:43:36 AM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: netmilsmom

[[With that, my poor hubby had site injection pain that was unbelievable. He’s a computer guy and had problems working a mouse because of the muscle pain in his upper arm. That lasted two weeks.]]

Could be a reaction but also could be that the needle itself hit something, tore something or just plain injured something- I’ve had sores from needles takign blood that lasted over 2 weeks- was very sore, and this just shows the needles themselves or improper injection is to blame- just saying


30 posted on 09/04/2009 8:45:57 AM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: LucyJo

Some people get very sick after taking the flu shot. It’s not that they come down with the flu, they just don’t react well to the shot.


31 posted on 09/04/2009 8:47:09 AM PDT by ladyjane
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To: Condor51

[[And when I got my 2nd shot I worked with a bunch of ‘old fogies’ like me, 55+ who all got Flu shots. They all said they ‘got sick’ from the shots too, it lasted about three days: Muscle Aches, Joint Pains & a Fever - THAT’S the Flu.]]

Read my post above- YES you can still get the flu- especially IF you’ve been exposed to hte virus right before gettign hte flu shot- but note that the flu shots are given to prevent full blown flu= not to totally prevent it, and hte flu hsots usually are targetted toward very severe flus, and we can still get hte flu, but have some protection agaisnt getting really really sick, or dying from the flu altogether- Persoanlly, I’d rather suffer mild fever, mild aches, than get full blown flu that causes serious breathign difficulty, high fever, dehydration from throwing up etc.

A friend always used to say ‘Everything’s relative’, and used to joke when I said somethign like “My relative lived to 90 years old ‘because htey took’ vitimins” that ‘Yes, but htye might have lived to 100 had they not’ lol But who knows? Since I’ve been takign hte flu shot, I’ve had a couple of flus, but htey have been mild, and who knows if they were the actual serious flus or osme other flu that the shots weren’t meant to protect against?


32 posted on 09/04/2009 8:52:27 AM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: CottShop

>>Again- the flu shot can’t give someone hte flu<<

Again, then there is some inert ingredient that gives flu like symptoms.

Or perhaps, while building immunity to one type of flu, it exacerbated another. Or, the immune system is so busy fighting the “dead virus” one is exposed to other illnesses.

Any way you swing it, my family will NEVER get another flu shot.


33 posted on 09/04/2009 8:54:25 AM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: Condor51

Check post 29.

Same tired cut and paste.


34 posted on 09/04/2009 8:58:40 AM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: CottShop

>>it’s beyond dispute now that peopel ARE dying from this flu<<

People die of the flu every year. The just ran a story on our Fox2News. 40 children in the southern hemisphere died of this flu this year.

100% of those children had other preexisting conditions.

If you have those, get the flu shot.
If not, then it’s a choice. A choice I will not take.


35 posted on 09/04/2009 9:02:05 AM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: ladyjane

I don’t know, ladyjane, if it wasn’t the flu it was surely the evil twin! lol.


36 posted on 09/04/2009 9:47:37 AM PDT by LucyJo
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To: netmilsmom

[[Again, then there is some inert ingredient that gives flu like symptoms.]]

Perhaps- but they are generally mild IF that is the case- as compared to full blown flu which does kill

[[Or perhaps, while building immunity to one type of flu, it exacerbated another.]]

The point I think is that the flu shots are for them ore dangerous flus- the ones known to kill, while gettign a different flu than the one the lfu shot is for is less dangerous- an annoyance- but not as deadly as the ones the flu shot covers

[[Or, the immune system is so busy fighting the “dead virus” one is exposed to other illnesses.]]

I don’t think that’s necessarily the case- the imune system is designed to handle several foreign attacks at once- it’s not like it’s an ‘all or nothing’ situation where it can only fight one thing at a time

[[Any way you swing it, my family will NEVER get another flu shot.]]

Well that’s your choice, but concidering the relatively minor complaints that hte flu shot might create such as achiness, or low fever, I’d hate to think that my child got hte flu, died, and that there was soemthign I could have done to prevent it- while the chances are small with most flus- this years swine flu is a whole different animals inthat it attacks children much more severely, and the fact is that those that have died from it show massive lung dammage when autopsied- and I can only imagine what hte lungs look like in those who manage to survive it-

I think the claim that 100% had ‘pre-existing conditions’ who died is misleading- true- those with pre-existing conditions are more at risk, however, there are reports now of healthy people dying from this flu as well who had no severe pre-existing conditions, and personally, I think the claims put out by the likes of WHO and CDC are tryign to downplay it to alleviate fear by insinuating only sick people will die from this flu- past flus have proven that even healthy peopel die from less severe flus

[[If not, then it’s a choice. A choice I will not take.]]

Well- good luck then


37 posted on 09/04/2009 12:21:50 PM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: CottShop

Good luck to you too.
I’ll risk flu over paralysis.


38 posted on 09/04/2009 2:22:35 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: Condor51

The Novartis and GlaxoSmithKline rep has come in at the end of the thread to tell us we are crazy.


39 posted on 09/04/2009 2:25:33 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: netmilsmom

lol- Yep- that’s it- I’m an employee- and I never said you were crazy- all I was saying was the chances of negative effects is very small- but whatever


40 posted on 09/04/2009 4:47:01 PM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: netmilsmom

you complained about peopel callign you crazy- but perhaps it’s because you say silly stuff like how I’m suppsoed to be an ‘employee’ or rep? The side effects again, are very rare compared to the side effects from the flu-

Zicam was pulled from the market because of the fact that there were isolated cases of peopel losign hteir sense of smell, and people freaked out about it- but the FACT is that the common cold also causes a loss of smell- but that didn’t matter- people just got all worried about it, and forced the removal of it despite never proving it wasn’t unfact hte colds that caused rthe loss of smell- All I was pointing out was to use caution when evaluating something and weigh th4e risks vs benifits, as well as look at the stats for BOTH takign the shots vs not takign them- common sense is all- but yeah- call me a rep if you want- I don’t wonder now why folks reacted to your previous posts on the issue the way they did if that’s your attitude abotu hte whole issue-


41 posted on 09/04/2009 4:53:03 PM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: CottShop

Well, as I remember, I got the same arguments from the last poster who dismissed those of us who got sick from a flu shot.

Perhaps this was Deja Vu.


42 posted on 09/04/2009 5:41:28 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: netmilsmom

[[Well, as I remember, I got the same arguments from the last poster who dismissed those of us who got sick from a flu shot.]]

I guess I missed that- I certainlywasn’t dismissing you- I can certai ly understand your feelings o nthe issue- but I also think I’ve presented reasonable examples as well-, and think it’s important that we concider the facts when makign a decision one way or the other. It’s kind of like flying- Yes, there are accidents, but hte vast majority of flights are very safe, but it’s easy to become fearful hearing ohrror stories— I certainly understandthat- I have a relative that refuses to fly, but has no problem driving a car, which statistically is much less safe- I don’t understand their fear, but don’t wish to force them to change hteirm ind either- I respect their decision- as I mentioned in an above post, everything is relative- we just need a little perspective sometimes


43 posted on 09/04/2009 8:37:29 PM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: netmilsmom
I don't think that's nuts at all b/c the same thing happened to me. I got my first and only flu shot at work several years ago. Within 48 hours I got the worse flu of my entire life! It also must have totally screwed up my immune system b/c I came down with one illness after another for the next three or four months which was very odd because I'd been in excellent health before getting the shot. Needless to say, I will not take the H1N1 vaccine.
44 posted on 09/04/2009 8:39:27 PM PDT by kara2008 (The Answer to 1984 is 1776 - Restore the Republic)
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To: kara2008

Don’t say it too loud!

People will tell you NO way. It’s funny how for the last few years I have said this on FR and in every thread two or three people come in saying the same thing.


45 posted on 09/05/2009 7:38:47 AM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: CottShop

Sorry, I don’t think you understand.
I said, my family won’t get flu shots.

Personally, I don’t care what you do.

But “reasonable arguments” are not reasonable to those of us who have had adverse reactions. You’re calling this “fear” and I’m telling you it’s like any other drug. There are contraindications in any medication. When you get one, you no longer use that drug.

The people who come into these threads have tried flu shots and had adverse reactions. As a Medical Office Manager, if I got a call from a patient stating an adverse reaction to a med, how stupid would it be to say, “Continue taking it.”

That’s what you are doing.


46 posted on 09/05/2009 7:44:51 AM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: Maelstorm
So what are the risks of the swine flu vaccines? It depends on who you ask.

Yes, it depends on whether you ask a scientist who has studied vaccines and immunology, or if you ask a foaming at the mouth blogger intent on spreading hysterical hyperbole.

The risks of the injected vaccine is GBS at the rate of one case per million doses. There is also the risk of an allergic reaction if you happen to be allergic to albumen (egg white.) It's not recommended that people with such an allergy get the injected vaccine.

From what I've seen in reports, squalene will not be included in all doses of the vaccine. I saw a report yesterday that there are two batches, one in ten dose vials and one in single vials. One of them does not contain it. If you're concerned about that, you can ask for a dose without it.

If you're an anti-vaccine zealot, you also run the risk of having someone post on all your threads that the flu kills 34,000 plus and causes the hospitalization of 200,000 plus in the United States alone. So the benefits of getting vaccinated far outweigh the risks.

The H1N1 is being tested right now and has been for a while. It will be released in mid October.

My advice? If you are really that scared of it, don't get it. I sincerely doubt the stormtroopers are goign to kick in your door and force you to get vaccinated, regardless of what you read on the internet. Also, there's no multi-national corporate conspiracy plotting around a large round oak table in Europe with the single minded goal of giving you GBS for their own fun and profit.

On the other hand, if you want some level of protection against the flu, get the shot.

Much of the mortality of this flu hinges on whether it causes cytokine storms, a serious immune overreaction in a localized area like the lungs that results from certain types of antigens. This is why the 1918 flu killed so many with healthy immune systems. It is still unclear whether prevailing strains of H1N1 cause cytokine storms.

Anyway, good luck and happy blogging.
47 posted on 09/05/2009 8:05:50 AM PDT by mysterio
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To: netmilsmom

[[But “reasonable arguments” are not reasonable to those of us who have had adverse reactions.]]

No that’s not what I said- I specifically said those hwo have had bad reactiosn should not take the shot- I said that several times infact- however, I am also pointign out that people, myself included in past times, tend to look at isolated cases- which can be extreme- no doubt- and might conclude that it’s very risky when the facts are that for the mass majority of peopel it’s very safe- you’re chance of gettign struck by lightening is greater than having a bad reaction- and we can’t let fear keep us indoors everytime there’s a storm forcast- BUT for those hwo have had bad reactions, there is an obvious increased risk that yes, you should avoid

[[There are contraindications in any medication. When you get one, you no longer use that drug.]]

Which is what I’ve said right along- but let’s keep this in perspective- for the majority of people, there aren’t reactions, or very mild reactions which are easily tolorated compared with what the flu can do.

[[That’s what you are doing]]

NO Ma’am- don’t put words in my mouth- you’ve missed my point- I have searched the swine flu quite a bit, and it’;s just incredible the scare monguering that goes on based on what? Isolated cases of bad reactions? When these isolated cases are compared to the amount of help the shots provide for the mass majority, the scare tactics end up hurting people who would have been helped had they not been scared off because soem peopel have adverse reactions- I’m NOT saying that is what you are tryign to do- but I’ve seen several of these threads pop up recently, and I’m willing to bet that a lot of peopel wil lbe influenced and iwll be putting htemselves at risk of hte flu unecessarily because htei mpression is left that it’s a case of russian ruelette if you get hte lfue shot- but the facts don’t bear this out for hte majority of people

Now, this new flu vaccine may be a different story as not much is known yet, and I’m certainly NOT statign that it’s safe- as you mentioend, most meds have a small risk of complications- I had to take anti-cancer drugs which had a ‘low risk of lung infections’ and guess what? I kept getting them- ended up in hospital 3 times fightign to breathe- and hwen I told my doctor about it, he just looked incredulous, and insinuated that he ‘doubted I was getting lung infections as the risk was very low’ and blamed it on my asthma- I’ve had asthma for all my life, and htese infectiosn were much more than asthma- which I’ve NEVER had a fever with, nor spit up gunk like I experienced when I ended up in hospital, AND the antibiotics I was given at hte time cleared the problems up- AFTER coming off the cancer drugs, I have not had another infection-

Let me be clear here- IF you have had reactions, and they were severe- I say stay away fro mthe flu shot- can’t stress that enough, as these reactions could be life threatening- However, for htose that are healthy, and have no had reactions, or had just mild reactions, I beleive the danger from the swine flu far outwiegh the risk of a reaction fro m the shot.

There was another thread here on FR which basically was sayign that peopel should avoid the flu shot because soem people developped Guillian Barre (sp?) after getting the shots- BUT upon further investigation, it was foudn that peopel were LESS likely to get the condition after gettign hte shot- it actually REDUCED the risk- but. hte thread made it look like the shot was far too risky to take-

Let’s just look objectively, and make decisiosn hen- IF people are scared off from the shot unduly, then this virus IS goign to spread much farhter, faster, and more virulently, putting young, old, and people with health problems at greater risk- Worldwide, 200,000 to 500,000 peopel die from the regular flu each year, and htis swine flu could end up killing millions unless we do what we can to prevent it- for htose who CAN take the shot without problems, it wil lhelp slow the virus down- and yes, there WILL be soem that develop problems- but compared to how many people will survive, and not have complications due ot hte flu- I think it’s so far looking ok to take hte shots. That’s all I’m saying at this point- but watch the news- see if the risks fro mthe shot rise i nthe near future,- and act accordingly- So please don’t misrepresent what I’m sayign on the issue


48 posted on 09/05/2009 8:17:29 AM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: mysterio

[[The risks of the injected vaccine is GBS at the rate of one case per million doses.]]

Precisely- Which is hte points I was trying to bring up- we need to keep things in perspective.

I also had a pituitary tumor which caused Acromegally (same hting Andre the Giant had- only mine happened after the growthplates closed, so didn’t get giantism- just got hte negative effects like enlarged soft tissue organs like heart, intestines etc)- and the ‘risk’ of developping acromegally from pit tumor was 1 in 6 million- Yep- I was the ‘lucky’ #1- Can bad thigns happen given huge odds agaisnt it? Sure- but like flying- MOST peopel will never have problems- ever- BUT when peopel start lumping al lthe isolated cases together, it looks much worse than it actually is statistics-wise

Vitimin and herbal companies are famous for using htis practice of anectdotal evidence to bolster sales- they end up scarign people into thinking that if they don’t take their product, they wil lend up with problems that htey can’t even pronounce or have even heard of- and htese companies iwll use tactics like saying “Stuff your doctor doesn’t want you to know” or “Informaiton the govenrment is keeping from you” Then they’ll trot out all manner of ‘testimonials’ from peopel that make claism like “Vitimin B cured my diabetese” or somehtign similar- and the fact is that htere are so many variables in life, there is NO WAY they can know IF the vitimin was the cure, or of they went into remission naturally, or if some unconscious lifestyle change helped etc etc etc-

I also cringe hwen I see peopel advocating that gettign stuff liek Vitimin D is ‘all that you need to protect you from any flu” which is a crock-

you seem to be downplaying hte fact that peopel mention how many people are killed by the flu each year? I happen to think it’s a pretty powerful argument for takign hte shot- because what would htose numbers be IF there were ifnact no shots being given out? Much higher I’m betting- of htose 34,000 that do die- how many were not given shots? But you’re right- again, there’s lots of variables which we just don’t know, howver, I think there’s enough statisdtical evidence to suggest a strong correlatio nbetween protection and geting hte shots, and strong evidence showign not getting hte shot puts you at an unecessary higher risk of dying- especially with htis flu as the lungs that were autopsied showed massive damage (which incidently also happens in peopel who die fro mthe bird flu)

Anyways- long story short- like oyu say- in hte end- if peopel are scared of hte shot- or alergic- don’t get it- but PLEASE DO try to keep from spreadign hte flu IF you end up getting it as htis is goign to be a very deadly flu- especially to people with health conditions


49 posted on 09/05/2009 8:31:51 AM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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To: netmilsmom

[[Don’t say it too loud!

People will tell you NO way.]]

NOONE is sayign that Netmil- please don;’t infer that we are- thanks


50 posted on 09/05/2009 8:33:24 AM PDT by CottShop (Scientific belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge)
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