Posted on 09/09/2009 4:26:04 AM PDT by myknowledge
WOMEN should be able to serve in all frontline combat units of the Australian Defence Force, including the SAS and commando units, under a controversial plan that could avert a looming recruitment crisis.
The push by Defence Personnel and Science Minister Greg Combet would remove gender as a criterion for selection for specialised categories of military service.
The Rudd government wants to lift the proportion of women serving in the defence force from the current level of 13 per cent, as demographic pressures bear down on defence force recruitment over the next decade.
Removing any gender discrimination for serving in combat roles would put Australia in front of its key allies, including the US and Britain, which continue to carefully restrict where women can serve in the front line.
Mr Combet, a former ACTU national secretary, told parliament yesterday the Defence Science and Technology Organisation would develop a new set of physical employment standards for the army that would accurately measure a person's ability to perform the broad variety of jobs in the modern defence force. "A priority of the government is to improve the recruitment and retention of women in the ADF," he said. "My own view is that all categories should be open to women. The only exceptions should be where the physical demands cannot be met according to criteria that are determined on the basis of scientific analysis, rather than assumptions about gender."
(Excerpt) Read more at theaustralian.news.com.au ...
Would you want to see women soldiers on the battlefields, even women fighter pilots on fast jets?
Soon after Defense Secretary Les Aspin announced in 1993 that women could be placed in US military combat roles, the New York Air National Guard offered Maj. Jackie Parker an F-16 assignment. Throughout her Air Force career, she had been the first female in a number of traditionally male assignments. She was Reese AFB's first T-38 instructor pilot and the first female graduate of the USAF Test Pilot School.
read more here
http://www.wingsoverkansas.com/bonnie/article.asp?id=675
Only menopausal ones should serve as ground troops - they’re more vicious than any other subgroup of either gender ;).
LQ, feeling mighty cranky these days
I think that this issue is now well settled in the Canadian Forces. Women have proven themselves in all capacities in all branches, including combat capacities.
Just as the whole Pat Tillman incident (or any number of times men screwed up on the battle field) destroyed the credibility of men in combat roles? Ridiculous!
It has everything to do with the fact that Navy brass knew she had no business flying that aircraft in the first place. Any man with her performance record would have been flunked out of naval aviation long before they could get into a situation like that.
If anything this makes the case for women: the more mainstream it becomes, the less PC attitudes will come into play
This is insanity.
This is definitely a case of ‘be careful what you wish for’. A draft will no longer be able to exclude women. Maybe there is no draft now but if the Aussies get into a tight situation, the sheilas can’t be excluded.
Interesting point. But let’s be honest here. The only reason we’re seeing this push for women in the armed forces is that more and more nations are coming to RELY on them due to a lack of interest in the military among young men.
But I don't think anyone would have suggested that the pilot of that aircraft wasn't adequately prepared to fly it.
I think giving people the freedom to choose and compete for the jobs of their choice is not only just, it is smart. What business will do better: one who will only hire people who are tall/brown eyed/born in Texas/male/white/whatever...or those who will hire the most qualified candidate regardless of those other attributes?
If women can do the job as well or better, I say, let them.
But the reality is that the issue of women in combat roles is no different than what we've seen with women in many other "traditionally male" roles. You probably couldn't find a single law enforcement agency, fire department, etc. that hasn't instituting "gender norms" that hold women to lower standards than men for identical roles.
“...including the SAS and commando units...”
They can form their own Tactical Women’s Assault Team.
(Nod of the head to Cheech & Chong)
understood, differen’t opinions, but whether or not he was prepared to fly that plane, or that women was prepared to fly her plane, my point was still things can happen and true maybe some women would not fit best in these positions,
Still i believe that anyone can fill these positions and even with years under their belt, things can and truthfully will happen, i really don’t know that it’s based on gender. We each have our own paths to choose and i do pray that male or female that choose to serve our country will make the choice to do so with 100% certainty that this is where they want to be and will do their job with that same 100% attitude.
We have that now.
Do you have any idea how many F-14s were lost in peacetime crashes and accidents? Were they all flown by women?
Right. My concern isn’t with competence, but politics. The issue in the Hultgreen incident was that she was fast-tracked through the naval aviation program simply for political/symbolic value.
Same for every woman since then?
so the fault is with the rules not the practice
The Men of the Navy are ‘whipped by Patricia Schroeder into lowering standards and your conclusion is that women can’t do the job?
Insanity brought about by men who refuse to fight.
And the more feminized the military gets, the less interest men will have in it.
Both the Russians in WW2 and the Israelis in their war of independence used women in combat roles. They stopped. One big reason they stopped is because of how men behave in combat when women are present. They take major risks to protect the women, and become enraged when women are killed. They decided that women in front-line combat was more trouble than they were worth.
Note that the Israelis continue to use women, but not on the front lines. Women do training and support, and they are the final line of defense for the children if the Muslims break through the men.
Colonel (O-6) 
Navy Captain (O-6)
The Israeli Army had women in combat during the 1948-49 Israeli war of independence. What’s wrong with it?
For you not to realize the fact that friendly fire is a fact of modern warfare tells me you know little of it. In one of our armed forces finest hours, WWII, 30+ C-47 transports and gliders were shot down in the invasion of Sicily, killing over 300 paratroops and glidermen. 200+ men were killed and hundreds wounded, to include General Lesly McNair, commander of US Gound Forces, during the saturation bombardment preceding Operation Cobra, the breakout from Normandy. In EVERY war and with EVERY army, friendly fire deaths are commonplace. Your attempts to malign SP/4 Pat Tillman’s comrades is calumny of the worst sort, given the chaos of the battlefield which can affect even the most PROFESSIONAL of troops.. I am speaking as someone who has been there at the sharp end.
Call me whatever but women don’t belong in war and certainly not on the front line.
Unless the gender ratio starts to drop below 85:100 (m:f)
See post #14.
“In EVERY war and with EVERY army, friendly fire deaths are commonplace” If you read my post and the one I replied to, you’d see I agree with you
And based on lessons learned then, they have NEVER used women in front-line combat again. See post #29.
Debunking the Israeli 'women in combat' myth:
It's time to debunk the myth, once and for all, that Israel's experience with allowing women in combat was successful and, therefore, should be duplicated by the Pentagon. It wasn't successful. It was a disaster by Israel's own admission.See also here"History shows that the presence of women has had a devastating impact on the effectiveness of men in battle," wrote John Luddy in July 27, 1994, for the Heritage Foundation backgrounder.
"For example, it is a common misperception that Israel allows women in combat units. In fact, women have been barred from combat in Israel since 1950, when a review of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War showed how harmful their presence could be. The study revealed that men tried to protect and assist women rather than continue their attack. As a result, they not only put their own lives in greater danger, but also jeopardized the survival of the entire unit. The study further revealed that unit morale was damaged when men saw women killed and maimed on the battlefield," Luddy said.
And Heritage Foundation article on women in combat
The only reliable record of women in combat is provided by Israel, a nation whose policy is widely misunderstood. The popular conception is that Israeli women fight alongside men as equals. The truth is that although Israel drafts both women and men for military service, Israel has excluded women from combat units since 1950.To be sure, female soldiers fought alongside male colleagues in Israel's War of Liberation, which ended in 1948. Because of the problems that this created, Israeli women never again were sent into battle. Explains military historian Edward N. Luttwak of the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Strategic and International Studies, who has written a book about the Israeli military: "Men moved to protect the women members of the unit instead of carrying out the mission of the unit." (Telephone interview, June 10, 1991.) Luttwak adds that women are integrated into the Israeli military at many levels, and conduct most of the training. Women also serve in the Mossad, Israel's elite counter-terrorist force. But women are excluded, Luttwak notes, from infantry and other combat positions based on "the pragmatic experience of 40 years." (Ibid.)
Agreed, if what you mean is that women do not belong in combat. They can serve in other ways.
No combat plus I don’t think that Women with kids should be deployed away from them unless they request it.
Civilized societies don’t allow Mothers to be killed in Wars nor take them away from their children.
John
I agree, John.
That’s certainly part of it.
What would be the other part? If there were enough men enlisting, there would be no thought of putting women at the front.
Please see my post #14.
Is it ‘sexist’ to bar women from direct combat roles?
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