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Pseudo-science Attacks Irreducible Complexity (that is, the Temple of Darwin attacks REAL SCIENCE)
ICR ^ | September 10, 2009 | Brian Thomas, M.S.

Posted on 09/10/2009 8:45:31 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts

Molecular biologist Michael Behe described a system made of several interacting parts, whereby the removal of one part would disrupt the functioning of the whole, as being irreducibly complex. Both creation scientists and intelligent design proponents highlight examples of irreducible complexity in their studies, because they argue against evolutionary hypotheses. The very structure of these systems—with their interdependent parts working all together or not at all—demands a non-Darwinian, non-chance, non-piecemeal origin.

A team of evolutionary molecular biologists thinks it may have refuted this concept of irreducible complexity. In a recent study, the researchers focused on a specific cellular machine involved in protein transport and claimed that it was indeed reducible to its component parts. But did they use real science to demonstrate this, or just scientific-sounding phrases?...

(Excerpt) Read more at icr.org ...


TOPICS: Australia/New Zealand; Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; US: Texas; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: antiscienceevos; australia; blogspam; catastrophism; catholic; christian; creation; evolution; evoreligionexposed; godsgravesglyphs; intellligentdesign; science; templeofdarwin
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1 posted on 09/10/2009 8:45:31 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: metmom; DaveLoneRanger; editor-surveyor; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; MrB; GourmetDan; Fichori; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 09/10/2009 8:47:03 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

Thanks for the ping!


3 posted on 09/10/2009 8:50:00 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: GodGunsGuts
Warning!
This is a Meta-article that contains
no peer reviewed site-specific scientific data or research whatsoever.
It is posted by a member of the new Christian Taliban
attempting to pass off his agenda as "conservatave".
They are not posted to provide proof of Creationism, but instead
merely to drag america back to the middle ages.
Buyer Beware!

4 posted on 09/10/2009 8:50:11 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Dr. Behe has already testified, under oath, that intelligent design is no different than astrology.

Is ICR defending astrology as well?


5 posted on 09/10/2009 8:50:28 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: <1/1,000,000th%
Dr. Behe has already testified, under oath, that intelligent design is no different than astrology.

Is "under oath" supposed to mean something here? Perhaps that he isn't lying about what his opinion really is?

If we went to Mars and found a threaded metal bolt, it could be explained as a random natural phenomenon through the application of statistical possibilities, however slight.
(Monkey + Typewriter) X Time = Shakespeare

However, common sense says it can't happen.

6 posted on 09/10/2009 9:02:22 AM PDT by SampleMan (Socialism enslaves you & kills your soul.)
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To: <1/1,000,000th%; GodGunsGuts
"Dr. Behe has already testified, under oath, that intelligent design is no different than astrology. Is ICR defending astrology as well?"

This has been explained to evolutionists ad nauseum, with no effect. They repeat the same misrepresentation even after having the truth explained to them.

If you would actually read Dr. Behe's testimony instead of letting hack evolutionist websites do your thinking for you; you would see that Dr. Behe testified that ID was falsifiable in the same manner that astrology had been falsified.

But hey, don't let the truth get in the way of your beliefs.

7 posted on 09/10/2009 9:02:40 AM PDT by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
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To: xcamel
I see the Temple of Darwin allowed you to keep just enough grey matter to repeat the same mantra over and over and over and over and over...


8 posted on 09/10/2009 9:03:44 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts
And you're trying to tell us that it is not what you do spamming FR with the same drivel every day?


9 posted on 09/10/2009 9:07:13 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: SampleMan

You should never accept a statement by an evolutionist at face value. Their minds don’t work correctly and their statements are likewise false.

Behe actually testified that ID was falsifiable just as astrology had been falsified.

In an evo mind, that translates into the false statement that you saw.


10 posted on 09/10/2009 9:07:35 AM PDT by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
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To: xcamel
I see. You can't refute the contents of the article, so you just post meaningless ridicule.

Your side lost. Deal with it.

11 posted on 09/10/2009 9:10:44 AM PDT by Liberty1970 (Democrats are not in control. God is. And Thank God for that!)
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To: GourmetDan

==But hey, don’t let the truth get in the way of your beliefs.

I wonder if the evos realize that their entire worldview can be summed up by the very last word of your reply.


12 posted on 09/10/2009 9:11:07 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: GourmetDan
My point is simply that those who dismiss ID out of hand as irrational, have no problem accepting the dizzying improbabilities otherwise required.

1 in a billion chance? Acceptable.

1 in a trillion chance? Acceptable.

One trillionth in a trillion chance? No problem.

Such unquestionable acceptance smacks of blind faith to me, which is what they suggest they just can't accept.

13 posted on 09/10/2009 9:16:22 AM PDT by SampleMan (Socialism enslaves you & kills your soul.)
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To: Liberty1970
Your statement would be funny, if it wasn't so incredibly sad.
14 posted on 09/10/2009 9:16:56 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: GourmetDan
One funny thing about this whole debate is how ridiculous the evolutionist/naturalist mindset is in the context of real-world engineering and technology. Even fairly simple man-made artifacts are typically designed and engineered in non-stepwise manner (I'm thinking of the airbag crash modules built where I work, for example). Nor is it conceivable that such simple artifacts (compared to biological systems) could be built in a step-wise fashion as Darwinism requires. Yet it is an article of faith among Darwinists that literally everything in the biological world was produced in step-wise fashion, in total contradiction to our practical technological experience.

Darwinists sometimes naively point to 'evolutionary' iterations in technology without grasping the numerous intelligent decisions and multiple concrete changes in design and manufacturing for even small product upgrades. The reality is, changing most decently-optimized products requires numerous simultaneous changes to maintain function and efficiency such that it is an improvement over the old product design.

A biological example would be the shift from a reptilian lung to an avian lung. What makes a reptilian lung work in its environment is quite different from the optimal design for an avian lung, and requires substantial redesign. Not gradual 'evolution.' The same could be said for innumerable other biological features (such as different eye designs, bones, urea excretory systems, etc.) found in such a proposed transition. Evolutionism has embarassingly become a 19th-century word story unable to cope with the specifics and complexities of modern scientific discovery.

15 posted on 09/10/2009 9:20:33 AM PDT by Liberty1970 (Democrats are not in control. God is. And Thank God for that!)
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To: xcamel
I take it back, the Temple of Darwin has left just enough grey matter in your head to program you to post a few kindergarten caricatures and the same mantra over and over and over and over and over...
16 posted on 09/10/2009 9:21:15 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: xcamel

“This is a Meta-article that contains no peer reviewed site-specific scientific data or research whatsoever.”

It appears that the assumption of your statement is that FreeRepublic “scientists” are not intelligent enough to read an article of this nature and conclude that it is a “Meta-article”. Were you attempting to dissuade others from actually reading the inflammatory material and deciding for themselves? The article itself is not that brilliant, yet you threw up a warning like you were addressing a sixth grade school lab experiment. How incredibility paranoid.


17 posted on 09/10/2009 9:23:53 AM PDT by Leonard210 (Tagline? We don't need no stinkin' tagline.)
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To: SampleMan
If we went to Mars and found a threaded metal bolt,

So we found part of one of the crashed missions. Next!!!

18 posted on 09/10/2009 9:24:11 AM PDT by org.whodat (Vote: Chuck De Vore in 2012.)
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To: GodGunsGuts
same mantra over and over and over and over and over...

You saying this, is priceless. Please continue.

19 posted on 09/10/2009 9:24:20 AM PDT by going hot (Happiness is a Momma Deuce)
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To: xcamel

ROFLOL


20 posted on 09/10/2009 9:24:42 AM PDT by org.whodat (Vote: Chuck De Vore in 2012.)
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To: xcamel; GodGunsGuts

Mr. Thomas just can’t seem to complete the chain of logic in his arguments. He tries to alter the statements of the researchers (note: the researchers did in fact do research and not sit in a room brain storming the ‘what ifs’) to say something completely different than their article clearly states. Thomas implies that that the authors assume that the component parts were static in an unchanging environment and suddenly, magically assembled into mitochondria. That is absolutely not what was said. The researcher identified equivalent function in a very primitive archaebacteria. The components present are functionally the same in energy transport as eukaryotic mitochondria. They state that uptake of archaebacteria and assimilation of their component function would result in an internalization of a membrane function. This is hardly a revelation. The idea of biomass assimilation as a catalyst to subsequent alterations in form and function have been around for decades. Nice to see that they’ve finally modeled this in a properly controlled study.

Ultimately, Mr. Thomas once again has drawn conclusion from an incomplete or misunderstood reading of the source material. At least this time he did not cite himself as a source - although he did double source 1 and 2 (another no no.).

The study authors are:

#
aDepartment of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Monash University, Clayton 3800, Australia;
#
bDepartments of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology and
#
fMicrobiology and Immunology and
#
cBio21 Molecular Science and Biotechnology Institute, University of Melbourne, Parkville 3010 Australia;
#
dDepartment of Molecular, Cellular and Developmental Biology, Yale University, New Haven, CT 06520; and
#
eHoward Hughes Medical Institute, New Haven, CT 06520


21 posted on 09/10/2009 9:30:15 AM PDT by FormerRep
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To: Liberty1970; xcamel

As per usual.


22 posted on 09/10/2009 9:34:06 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: SampleMan

I understand. I just didn’t know if you knew the truth about Behe’s testimony. I’ve seen it misrepresented so many times that I’m sick of it.


23 posted on 09/10/2009 9:46:34 AM PDT by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
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To: GodGunsGuts
A team of evolutionary molecular biologists thinks it may have refuted this concept of irreducible complexity. In a recent study, the researchers focused on a specific cellular machine involved in protein transport and claimed that it was indeed reducible to its component parts. But did they use real science to demonstrate this, or just scientific-sounding phrases?...

I've actually read the article in question from PNAS. It's a joke. They don't actually support the contentions presented in both the abstract, as well as the popular press releases, and one gets the impression that Dr. Lithgow, et al. produced it more for its "gotcha wowsers" effect than anything else. The science in the paper simply doesn't support the claims being made about the paper.

24 posted on 09/10/2009 10:00:43 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (We bury Democrats face down so that when they scratch, they get closer to home.)
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To: FormerRep
Bingo.

Creationists and Obama use the same speechwriters..

25 posted on 09/10/2009 10:02:54 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: FormerRep

I’ve read the article, and it doesn’t support the claims being made about it.


26 posted on 09/10/2009 10:03:32 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (We bury Democrats face down so that when they scratch, they get closer to home.)
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To: xcamel
And you're trying to tell us that it is not what you do spamming FR with the same drivel every day?

Great argument! It sure beats knowing anything about the subject,I'm sure.

27 posted on 09/10/2009 10:04:40 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (We bury Democrats face down so that when they scratch, they get closer to home.)
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To: xcamel; FormerRep

LOL...last I checked, Obama is a Temple of Darwin fanatic. In other words, he’s one of yours. Nice try though :o)


28 posted on 09/10/2009 10:05:13 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: Leonard210
Please cite who [quote] FreeRepublic “scientists” [unquote] might be.

I didn't know JimRob had enough money left over from the freepathons to employ any. (notwithstanding the creationist postings do seem to make the freepathons much longer now)

29 posted on 09/10/2009 10:06:11 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
So what you're saying is that the most prestigious scientific body in the world has prostituted itself on behalf of the Temple of Darwin. I think it's high time we start drawing serious attention to that FACT.
30 posted on 09/10/2009 10:08:35 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: xcamel
Please cite who [quote] FreeRepublic “scientists” [unquote] might be.

Would you care to share with us your scientific credentials?

31 posted on 09/10/2009 10:10:53 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (We bury Democrats face down so that when they scratch, they get closer to home.)
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To: GodGunsGuts
So what you're saying is that the most prestigious scientific body in the world has prostituted itself on behalf of the Temple of Darwin. I think it's high time we start drawing serious attention to that FACT.

We could also start by pointing out that the evodiots on here who like to lecture about "science" don't know the first thing about it.

32 posted on 09/10/2009 10:11:48 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (We bury Democrats face down so that when they scratch, they get closer to home.)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Obama?


33 posted on 09/10/2009 10:14:06 AM PDT by FormerRep
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

Nice try on the diversion... not working though.

How about your bonafdes for a change, or are you one of the FR “secret scientists” ?


34 posted on 09/10/2009 10:15:38 AM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
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To: GodGunsGuts

Behe’s Black Box was refuted long ago. You know it’s bad when the book supposedly got a more rigorous pre-publication peer review than most scientific journals (according to Behe), yet three of the reviews would have resulted in a rejection, and one “reviewer” didn’t even see the book. Interestingly, it was the opinion of that last one that convinced the publisher to publish the book.

I have to hand it to Behe though, the book did force the scientists to defend the current state of science, and forcing such a defense is always good, at least the first time, then rehashing the rejected stuff starts to get old.


35 posted on 09/10/2009 10:18:34 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: GourmetDan
Behe actually testified that ID was falsifiable just as astrology had been falsified.

In an evo mind, that translates into the false statement that you saw.

Wow what a difference when you phrase it that way! I guess words mean things. I'm trying to think of how one could falsify ID though.

36 posted on 09/10/2009 10:19:57 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (I can reach across the aisle without even using my sights.)
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To: SampleMan
Is "under oath" supposed to mean something here? Perhaps that he isn't lying about what his opinion really is?

Ironic. Imagine an evolutionist saying "so help me God".

37 posted on 09/10/2009 10:22:07 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (I can reach across the aisle without even using my sights.)
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To: FormerRep

Yes, Obama...he’s one of your fellow evo co-religionists. Haven’t you heard?


38 posted on 09/10/2009 10:24:08 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: xcamel; GodGunsGuts

For me, ID or creationism seems possible.

But “young earth creationism” that wants us to disregard what we have discovered about the world, is seriously flawed.

And that’s what GGG pitches.

So a loving God created all this, and gave us intelligence just to fool us ? Some great game of “Gotcha” ?

Ridiculous.


39 posted on 09/10/2009 10:27:36 AM PDT by jimt
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To: GodGunsGuts

Sorry, I missed the other comment by x about speechwriters, hence my confusion about your statement.

I have no idea what his beliefs are, nor do I particularly care. On each of your threads I have sought only to provide criticism. I have criticized badly applied articles and supported the statements made by your usual sources where they were correct.

You cannot say that I’ve ever been patently disrespectful in either regard.

Still, I am ever disappointed in Mr. Thomas. He always seems like he has a point to make but never gets around to developing it. Perhaps if he were allowed more than a page to expound?


40 posted on 09/10/2009 10:29:31 AM PDT by FormerRep
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To: DungeonMaster
Ironic. Imagine an evolutionist saying "so help me God".

Nothing ironic about it. There's no contradiction between a belief in God and a belief in evolution.

God could have created the universe to evolve, couldn't He ?

41 posted on 09/10/2009 10:30:15 AM PDT by jimt
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To: jimt

If “creationism seems possible”, how can you turn around and rule out biblical creation in the same breath? Is there some sort of partisan prejudice driving you to seemingly contradict yourself, or do you have evidence that biblical creation is not true?


42 posted on 09/10/2009 10:31:11 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: xcamel
How about your bonafdes for a change, or are you one of the FR “secret scientists” ?

Bachelor of science in chemistry, Truman State University, which included undergraduate research involving the synthesis of N-methylbenzohydroxamates and the subsequent investigation of the effect of substituent variation on their nucleophilicity via the α-effect by electrochemical and NMR methods, and the correlation with single electron characteristics in reaction transition state.

Master of science in chemistry with an emphasis on synthetic organic chemistry, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill; completed my thesis on the synthesis, characterisation, and structural interpretation of novel 1,3,4-oxadiazole bearing bent-core liquid crystals.

Have worked in the pharmaceutical industry since grad school, working on a wide range of research projects that include the synthesis and conjugation of insulin-bearing PEG conjugates; the development and synthesis of novel small molecule pharmaceutical candidates; the development of differential scanning calorimetry methods for the testing of pharmaceutical compounds; and the development of large-scale column chromatographic methods for the purification of proteinaceous vaccine components derived from genetically engineered microorganisms.

And, I am able to spell the phrase "bona fides."

So what are yours?

43 posted on 09/10/2009 10:35:07 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus (We bury Democrats face down so that when they scratch, they get closer to home.)
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To: SampleMan
If we went to Mars and found a threaded metal bolt

Of course that begs the question, "Have we found one?" Common sense runs into reality.

An arch is a beautiful thing, mechanically strong and efficient, and removing any one part of it causes it to collapse. If I were so inclined I would say it was designed upon seeing one, yet we see such arches created by natural processes. My conclusion is that complexity is often in the eye of the beholder.

44 posted on 09/10/2009 10:36:36 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: SampleMan
One trillionth in a trillion chance? No problem.

Would be interesting, except that the theory doesn't put forth evolution as completely random.

45 posted on 09/10/2009 10:40:13 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: GodGunsGuts

LOL. Look in the mirror.


46 posted on 09/10/2009 10:41:36 AM PDT by Wacka
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

And what is your scientific background?


47 posted on 09/10/2009 10:43:56 AM PDT by Wacka
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To: xcamel

“Please cite who [quote] FreeRepublic “scientists” [unquote] might be.”

To who, then, did you address your warning and what was your fear?


48 posted on 09/10/2009 10:44:41 AM PDT by Leonard210 (Tagline? We don't need no stinkin' tagline.)
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To: Wacka; Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus

I believe he did in post#43. Mine is available in my bio page.


49 posted on 09/10/2009 10:46:13 AM PDT by FormerRep
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To: Wacka

Sorry, didn’t read your post above. So your an organic chmist, not a biologist. Just as I don’t know squat about what you work on, you don’t know squat about cell biology.


50 posted on 09/10/2009 10:48:24 AM PDT by Wacka
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