Can't we all just get along?
Posted on 09/18/2009 9:22:24 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
My response to metmom which you were to tpathetic to read or understand apparently.....
Notice the inability of metmom or anyone else to answer?
The construction you seem so enamored of is that if one accepts evolution that they are only “claiming” to be Christian and somehow also reject the notion of God’s miraculous involvement with the world.
Seeings as how Pope Benedict XVI said evolution was a “fact which enriches our understanding of life and being and such” do you think he too is only “claiming” to be a Christian or that he rejects Gods miracles?
It matters not at all that he is the Pope except to illustrate the absurdity of your argument. If another were selected and he said it as Karl Ratzinger, would you assume that “Karl” was only “claiming” to be a Christian, and would you think that he also rejected the virgin birth or the resurrection of Jesus the Christ?
For a long time, I've noticed the unwillingness to answer.
Do you agree that the Founding Fathers were generally Christians who founded America on Judeo-Christian traditions?
YES or NO.
”Some variant of evolutionary theory,” indeed. As a Christian, I have no problem with scientific theories. They serve a vital function. As an outgrowth of the Judeo-Christian tradition, armed with the same rigorous tools of intellectual inquiry that fueled its philosophy and religious disciplines, the fact-finding philosophy of the Scientific Method has proved to be one of the happiest inspirations of Western Civilization. As a powerful liberating force, it ranks right up near “All men are created equal . . .”
Now, what I find more than passing strange is that, of all the laws and theories discovered and developed by Science, it is only the Theory of Evolution that has inspired so many eminent scientists to conclude that; 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent. And, remarkably, all this in blatant defiance of their own rules of scientific methodology.
Then, when Christians rise in protest against this flagrant violation of Science’s own cannons of comportment, we are assailed by frenzied extremists, who accuse us being everything but great humanitarians.
"3. By extension of the above, a lust for power fueled by hatred and an overwhelming sense of entitlement harnessed to a willingness to lie, cheat, steal, slander, murder, etc. to get it."
And why should they not, when they are told by their Darwinian Mullahs that human beings are nothing but a random collection of molecules, propelled by weak electrical charges, and are of no moral significance.
Thanks for the beep, Spirited. Good stuff.
metmom:
So, amd, please explain why the virgin birth and the resurrection are acceptable things to believe in in contradiction to science, but the creation account isn’t.
Thank you, ZC, for putting it so succinctly.
YHAOS:
The Hebrew people knew it back to a time incalculable by me. So, tell me allmendream, how was Mankind Created? The Universe (the heaven and the earth)? Or, even simply, water?
But what were the methods that God used?
Right now a star is forming somewhere due to gravity and nuclear fusion. God created that star just as much as he created ours. Just because physical means were used to create it doesn't mean that God wasn't involved. Discovering the means by which stars form doesn't remove God as their creator.
Right now a new species is branching off from an old. God created that new species just as much as he created our species. Just because physical means were used to create it doesn't mean that God wasn't involved. Discovering the means by which species form doesn't remove God as their creator.
So, if God uses physical means to create...stars...
and...
“Discovering the means by which stars form doesn’t remove God as their creator.”
and...
“Right now a new species is branching off from an old. God created that new species just as much as he created our species. Just because physical means were used to create it doesn’t mean that God wasn’t involved. Discovering the means by which species form doesn’t remove God as their creator.”
then...
Explain to us again why it is so ever important in these scientific matters, to tell a child “God doesn’t belong in science” again?
snip: Now, what I find more than passing strange is that, of all the laws and theories discovered and developed by Science, it is only the Theory of Evolution that has inspired so many eminent scientists to conclude that; 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent. And, remarkably, all this in blatant defiance of their own rules of scientific methodology.
Spirited: Some concepts are better understood when expressed in analogy and symbol. If your points (1-4) were to take the shape of Sauron’s One Ring, the ‘why’s and wherefore’s’ of choices made come into focus.
In fact, Dostoevsky summarized these last days as an ongoing clash between the Man-God (Jesus Christ) and the rebellious god-men—those who have been seduced—and yes, even possessed by-— the (satanic) power of the One Ring. In his summary of the cataclysmic evil that exploded in Russia, he compared it to Gethsemane. The pigs into which the demons went were the revolutionaries.
(Note: It’s in Tolkiens’ ‘Silmarilion’ that Sauron is identified as a second-level fallen angelic being named Melkor. Morgoth is Lucifer.)
I hope this helps.
Science is real and replicable no matter what one believes or doesn't believe about God.
Moreover science is a universal endeavor, accessible to any and all no matter their beliefs, not a sectarian endeavor.
But to those of weak faith, something so powerful as science needs to either prop up their weak faith, or they want it to go away, or (like you and your tagline) they seek to diminish science and its use and applicability.
But during class, it would be difficult to shoe horn God into concepts like the conservation of energy, or the universal gravitational attraction of mass other than as something of a nonsequeter.
Reading the writings of Issac Newton one sees that he must regularly point out that by proposing physical means to explain ‘celestial’ motion - he was not removing God from ‘the equation’. God is not and never could be a measurable factor within the equation.
Science is not a subset of God's creation, it is a methodology that is applicable to ALL of God's physical creation. Yet it can tell us nothing about the much more important and eternal realm of spirit that God has promised to those who confess in the name of our Lord Jesus the Christ.
Morgoth/Melkor could not be conqured by force of arms, and it was the vanity of the rebellious Noldor elves to think they could, Morgoth was only banished to a void beyond the world by the power of the Valar.
The lesson: Not by works is there salvation, but only by the grace of Jesus the Christ, our Lord.
You need to read the Silmarilion, the truth is there.
I am sure you can also find this online if you so wish.
From the index....
Sauron: ‘The Abhorred’; greatest of the servants of Melkor, in his origin a Maia of Aule.
Melkor: The Quenya name for the great rebellious Vala, the beginning of evil, in his origin the mightiest of the Ainur; afterwords named Morgoth, Bauglir, the Dark Lord, the Enemy, etc. ....... (after the rape of the Silmarils usually called Morgoth).
So what?
Neither does scientific study of prayer, string theory, multiverse theory...how many times do you need to see your strawman debunked?
Science is real and replicable no matter what one believes or doesn't believe about God.
Real like algore's hot air cult? Replicable like multiverse theory?
Moreover science is a universal endeavor, accessible to any and all no matter their beliefs, not a sectarian endeavor.
Surprise...more irrelevancy.
But to those of weak faith, something so powerful as science needs to either prop up their weak faith, or they want it to go away, or (like you and your tagline) they seek to diminish science and its use and applicability.
It's not weak faith to understand God is greater than science, or anything in His creation for that matter.
Any Christian would understand that.
What's weak is a cult that has to have lawsuits in order to stand on it's own two feet.
It doesn't diminish science by understanding it's place...and you put it way above God, way out of place.
You put your supposed understanding of scripture above God and the Universe HE created.
You refuse the evidence of God's physical universe in preference to worshiping your own supposed infallibility in interpretation of scripture.
Translation, please, for this tired old literalist. The points are not mine. They are the points (along with the fifth) of William B. Provine, to the wild acclaim of thousands of his fellow scientists (and budding scientists) and of the media.
I take it from your remarks that you view the “last days” (end times?) to be approaching?
What a silly thing to say! OF COURSE God is "within" science! As intricately as imanginable! He permeates all of His creation! He's omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient.
You can no more exclude Him from science or any component of His creation, than you can exclude derangement from liberalism!
Rational people see God within science all the time. From His handiwork to His design to His purpose. We may not understand it all the time, but when we do it's unmistakable. When we don't, there's obviously more for us to do.
It's not about some puzzle or some obscure hide and go seek game between God and science, and no one's trying to measure God via science, that's your ridiculous strawman. We rightly recognize science is His handiwork! If this idea is somehow offensive to you...oh well! No one gave you the keys or appointed you gatekeeper anyway.
I know you get hung up on your obsessions with people including God within science, and your run-away fantasies about automatic fire and brimstone sermons in biology if God is so much as mentioned in science class and so forth, but no one asserts that science can begin to understand Him or His creation, or that this is somehow the purpose of science. That's just more of your silly endless strawmen.
And quite frankly science has it's hands full with the likes of evolution, algore's hot air cult and various other liberal pseudo-science ideas anyway (like multiverse theory). Which aren't even about science as much as they are about liberal ideology; but the obvious energies people expend on determing the difference is exhausting, expensive and dangerous because liberals have no shame or scruples.
God is not measurable, nor can HE be compelled to act replicably.
No one asserted such and this measurable/replicable red herring was debunked too many times to count...just like "peer review". Multiverse theory isn't...study or prayer isn't...string theory isn't...but it's all "science" nonetheless...and there aren't any lawsuits I know of surrounding those ideas. But if you're going to keep demanding to be a hypocrite about "replicable and repeatable", be my guest!
And it occurs to me if God wanted to be "measurable" I'm sure He'd see to it, and even reveal that to us if He'd prefer. So just who are you anyway to presume so much with so little?
You put your supposed understanding of scripture above God and the Universe HE created.
If you run out if strawmen I guess it's time to project eh dreamer?
You refuse the evidence of God's physical universe in preference to worshiping your own supposed infallibility in interpretation of scripture.
You worship liberal materialism to the point of ignoring both the physical evidence all around you and scripture. You attack anyone's interpretation of scripture that threatens your myriad disconnections between Christianity and science. You misrepresent the Pope, you argue with failed strawmen and you're a walking talking projection.
What a silly thing to say! OF COURSE God is "within" science! As intricately as imanginable! He permeates all of His creation! He's omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient.
You can no more exclude Him from science or any component of His creation, than you can exclude derangement from liberalism!
Rational people see God within science all the time. From His handiwork to His design to His purpose. We may not understand it all the time, but when we do it's unmistakable. When we don't, there's obviously more for us to do.
It's not about some puzzle or some obscure hide and go seek game between God and science, and no one's trying to measure God via science, that's your ridiculous strawman. We rightly recognize science is His handiwork! If this idea is somehow offensive to you...oh well! No one gave you the keys or appointed you gatekeeper anyway.
I know you get hung up on your obsessions with people including God within science, and your run-away fantasies about automatic fire and brimstone sermons in biology if God is so much as mentioned in science class and so forth, but no one asserts that science can begin to understand Him or His creation, or that this is somehow the purpose of science. That's just more of your silly endless strawmen.
And quite frankly science has it's hands full with the likes of evolution, algore's hot air cult and various other liberal pseudo-science ideas anyway (like multiverse theory). Which aren't even about science as much as they are about liberal ideology; but the obvious energies people expend on determing the difference is exhausting, expensive and dangerous because liberals have no shame or scruples.
God is not measurable, nor can HE be compelled to act replicably.
No one asserted such and this measurable/replicable red herring was debunked too many times to count...just like "peer review". Multiverse theory isn't...study or prayer isn't...string theory isn't...but it's all "science" nonetheless...and there aren't any lawsuits I know of surrounding those ideas. But if you're going to keep demanding to be a hypocrite about "replicable and repeatable", be my guest!
And it occurs to me if God wanted to be "measurable" I'm sure He'd see to it, and even reveal that to us if He'd prefer. So just who are you anyway to presume so much with so little?
You put your supposed understanding of scripture above God and the Universe HE created.
If you run out if strawmen I guess it's time to project eh dreamer?
You refuse the evidence of God's physical universe in preference to worshiping your own supposed infallibility in interpretation of scripture.
You worship liberal materialism to the point of ignoring both the physical evidence all around you and scripture. You attack anyone's interpretation of scripture that threatens your myriad disconnections between Christianity and science. You misrepresent the Pope, you argue with failed strawmen and you're a walking talking projection.
NEA liberal strawman projection tpathetic.
Can't we all just get along?
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