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Leading Egyptian Daily 'Al-Ahram' Reports: Coins from Era of Biblical Joseph Found in Egypt
MEMRI ^ | September 24, 2009 | Unsigned

Posted on 09/25/2009 9:29:35 AM PDT by TenthAmendmentChampion

According to a report in the Egyptian daily Al-Ahram, by Wajih Al-Saqqar, archeologists have discovered ancient Egyptian coins bearing the name and image of the Biblical Joseph.

Following are excerpts from the article: [1]

"Koranic Verses Indicate Clearly That Coins Were Used in Egypt in the Time of Joseph"

"In an unprecedented find, a group of Egyptian researchers and archeologists has discovered a cache of coins from the time of the Pharaohs. Its importance lies in the fact that it provides decisive scientific evidence disproving the claim by some historians that the ancient Egyptians were unfamiliar with coins and conducted their trade through barter.

"The researchers discovered the coins when they sifted through thousands of small archeological artifacts stored in [the vaults of] the Museum of Egypt. [Initially] they took them for charms, but a thorough examination revealed that the coins bore the year in which they were minted and their value, or effigies of the pharaohs [who ruled] at the time of their minting. Some of the coins are from the time when Joseph lived in Egypt, and bear his name and portrait.

"There used to be a misconception that trade [in Ancient Egypt] was conducted through barter, and that Egyptian wheat, for example, was traded for other goods. But surprisingly, Koranic verses indicate clearly that coins were used in Egypt in the time of Joseph.

"Research team head Dr. Sa'id Muhammad Thabet said that during his archeological research on the Prophet Joseph, he had discovered in the vaults of the [Egyptian] Antiquities Authority and of the National Museum many charms from various eras before and after the period of Joseph, including one that bore his effigy as the minister of the treasury in the Egyptian pharaoh's court…

"Dr. Sa'id Thabet added that he had examined the sarcophagi of many pharaohs in search of coins used as charms or ornaments, and that he had indeed found such ancient Egyptian coins. This [find] prompted researchers to seek and find Koranic verses that speak of coins used in ancient Egypt, [such as]: 'And they sold him [i.e. Joseph] for a low price, a number of silver coins; and they attached no value to him. [Koran 12:20].' [Also,] Qarun [2] says about his money: 'This has been given to me because of a certain knowledge which I have [Koran 28: 78].'"

"Studies... Have Revealed That What Most Archeologists Took For a Kind of Charm, and Others Took For an Ornament... is Actually a Coin"

"According to Dr. Thabet, his studies are based on publications about the Third Dynasty, one of which states that the Egyptian coin of the time was called a deben and was worth one-fourth of a gram of gold. This coin is mentioned in a letter by a man named Thot-Nehet, a royal inspector of the Nile bridges. In letters to his son, he mentioned leasing lands in return for deben-coins and agricultural produce.

"Other texts from the time of the Third Dynasty, the Sixth Dynasty and the Twelfth Dynasty mention a coin named shati or sat, whose value was equal to that of the deben. There is also a picture of an Egyptian market showing trade being conducted through barter, but one of the vendors puts out his hand, asking the buyer for a deben in return for the goods.

"Studies by Dr. Thabet's team have revealed that what most archeologists took for a kind of charm, and others took for an ornament or adornment, is actually a coin. Several [facts led them to this conclusion]: first, [the fact that] many such coins have been found at various [archeological sites], and also [the fact that] they are round or oval in shape, and have two faces: one with an inscription, called the inscribed face, and one with an image, called the engraved face - just like the coins we use today.

"The archeological finding is also based on the fact that the inscribed face bore the name of Egypt, a date, and a value, while the engraved face bore the name and image of one of the ancient Egyptian pharaohs or gods, or else a symbol connected with these. Another telling fact is that the coins come in different sizes and are made of different materials, including ivory, precious stones, copper, silver, gold, etc."

"500 of These Coins Were [Recently] Discovered in the Museum of Egypt - Where They Were [Originally] Classified as Charms and Stored Carelessly in Closed Boxes"

"The researcher also pointed out that the coins made of precious metals or stones usually had a hole in them, like a woman's ornament, allowing them to be [worn] around the neck or on the chest. Some of them, which bore images of gods and texts from various prayers or incantations, were treasured belongings that were placed into the bindings of mummies or placed [on the chest, close to] the heart. The coins were scarab-shaped. What made the discovery possible was the fact that 500 of these coins were [recently] discovered in the Museum of Egypt, where they were [originally] classified as charms and stored carelessly in closed boxes."

"One Coin... [Had] an Image of a Cow Symbolizing Pharaoh's Dream about the Seven Fat Cows and Seven Lean Cows"

"The researcher identified coins from many different periods, including coins that bore special markings identifying them as being from the era of Joseph. Among these, there was one coin that had an inscription on it, and an image of a cow symbolizing Pharaoh's dream about the seven fat cows and seven lean cows, and the seven green stalks of grain and seven dry stalks of grain. It was found that the inscriptions of this early period were usually simple, since writing was still in its early stages, and consequently there was difficulty in deciphering the writing on these coins. But the research team [managed to] translate [the writing on the coin] by comparing it to the earliest known hieroglyphic texts…

"Joseph's name appears twice on this coin, written in hieroglyphs: once the original name, Joseph, and once his Egyptian name, Saba Sabani, which was given to him by Pharaoh when he became treasurer. There is also an image of Joseph, who was part of the Egyptian administration at the time.

"Dr. Sa'id Thabet called on Egypt's Antiquities Council and on the Minister of Culture to intensify efforts in the fields of Ancient Egyptian history and archeology, and to [promote] the research of these coins that bear the name of Egyptian pharaohs and gods. This, he said, would enable the correction of prevalent misconceptions regarding the history of Ancient Egypt."


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Israel; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: ancientegypt; archaeology; godsgravesglyphs; history; israel; joseph
Cool stuff!
1 posted on 09/25/2009 9:29:35 AM PDT by TenthAmendmentChampion
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To: SunkenCiv

Ping


2 posted on 09/25/2009 9:29:52 AM PDT by TenthAmendmentChampion (Be prepared for tough times. FReepmail me to learn about our survival thread!)
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To: TenthAmendmentChampion

Coat of Many Colors had a hole in the pocket?


3 posted on 09/25/2009 9:34:24 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: TenthAmendmentChampion

Super Cool. Any Better Pictures of the Coins? Especially Joseph and the one with the Cows?


4 posted on 09/25/2009 9:43:06 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: TenthAmendmentChampion
So, this was all supposed to be mere representational imagery about broad classes of people, or Hebrew tribes.

Now we find the representational imagery struck coins and spelled his name in two languages.

Hmmmm ~ sounds like at least one of the Patriarchs was a real flesh and blood man.

5 posted on 09/25/2009 9:43:23 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: TenthAmendmentChampion
Hey wait a minute.

Q'uran (please note my attempt at politically correct and sensitive spelling) wasn't on the Amazon shelves until many thousands of years after Joseph and the Pharaohs.

In fact, if Muhammed (May Peace Be Upon Him) had been around when Joseph was, it wouldn't have been Joe coming out of the caravan raid in a coat of many colors, it would have been Moe.

I scent the effluvia of many camels in this report

6 posted on 09/25/2009 9:57:38 AM PDT by Kenny Bunk (Congratulations Obama Voters! You are not prejudiced. Unpatriotic, maybe. Dumb definitely.)
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To: Kenny Bunk
Q'uran (please note my attempt at politically correct and sensitive spelling) wasn't on the Amazon shelves until many thousands of years after Joseph and the Pharaohs.

If everything Mohammed borrowed from Christianity and Judaism were taken out of the Koran, there would be little left.
7 posted on 09/25/2009 10:00:17 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: TenthAmendmentChampion; GodGunsGuts; little jeremiah

pING!


8 posted on 09/25/2009 10:00:56 AM PDT by Red Badger (The Zero has more airtime than Michael Jordan...........)
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To: sr4402
Super Cool. Any Better Pictures of the Coins? Especially Joseph and the one with the Cows?


9 posted on 09/25/2009 10:02:34 AM PDT by Red Badger (The Zero has more airtime than Michael Jordan...........)
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To: Kenny Bunk

They are referencing the Koran in that it states that the ancient Egyptians used coins for trade although many scholars did not believe that coins were used at that time............


10 posted on 09/25/2009 10:04:40 AM PDT by Red Badger (The Zero has more airtime than Michael Jordan...........)
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To: aruanan

Can’t trust anything coming from Islamists.


11 posted on 09/25/2009 10:08:47 AM PDT by WVNan ( (Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.: Sun Tzu))
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To: TenthAmendmentChampion
Where's more proof that the coin shows the name of "Joseph"?

If we can get some corroborating proof, this is an amazing find.

12 posted on 09/25/2009 10:11:44 AM PDT by what's up
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To: Red Badger

Sorry Red Badger, not that Cow.


13 posted on 09/25/2009 10:18:20 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: Red Badger
Come on Badger!

This has gotta be a Muzzie rehash of the old joke about the archaeologist finding Roman Coins dated 100 BC! Of course the ancient Gippos used coins. They even had coin operated devices in their temples. Flipped change to kids holding the horse. Used coins as screwdrivers. Put shiny ones in their loafers.

I do have it on good authority, however, that they did not use them in fuseboxes, as that would be a FIRE HAZARD.

14 posted on 09/25/2009 10:19:52 AM PDT by Kenny Bunk (Congratulations Obama Voters! You are not prejudiced. Unpatriotic, maybe. Dumb definitely.)
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To: what's up
Where's more proof that the coin shows the name of "Joseph"?

Yeah, that's why I want to see a better picture of that and the other coin and to see if they are Not Faked.

15 posted on 09/25/2009 10:19:55 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: sr4402

16 posted on 09/25/2009 10:21:29 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: Red Badger

The earliest coins are believed to have been minted around 600 B.C. in western Asia Minor. Before that gold and silver were considered precious metals but you’d have to weigh pieces of gold or silver in each transaction, and hope they weren’t gold and silver plating over a cheaper metal. 600 B.C. is many centuries after Joseph.


17 posted on 09/25/2009 10:37:11 AM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: Red Badger

RE: Helen Thomas photo; I suspect she could honestly say...

“I knew Joseph. Joseph was a friend of mine.”


18 posted on 09/25/2009 10:44:49 AM PDT by VOA
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To: sr4402

Well, If I HAD A DREAM WITH SEVEN OF THOSE COWS I’D BE ALARMED TOO!...................


19 posted on 09/25/2009 10:46:36 AM PDT by Red Badger (The Zero has more airtime than Michael Jordan...........)
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To: TenthAmendmentChampion
Very interesting.
More evidence the BIBLE is true, and the GOD of Israel is who he says he is, the one and only true God.

PSALM 14:1

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
20 posted on 09/25/2009 10:51:37 AM PDT by American Constitutionalist (There is no civility in the way the Communist/Marxist want to destroy the USA)
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To: WVNan
" Can’t trust anything coming from Islamists. "

AMEN !!!!
21 posted on 09/25/2009 10:54:15 AM PDT by American Constitutionalist (There is no civility in the way the Communist/Marxist want to destroy the USA)
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To: sr4402

Can anyone Enhance and Enlarge the Pictures so we can see somthing?


22 posted on 09/25/2009 10:57:53 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: TenthAmendmentChampion
I was excited about this at first, but I think its too pat. I suspect fraud. I am troubled too by the supposed Egyptian name, "Saba Sabani." I've never heard this name before. I suspect it has some Koranic origin, which would make me even more suspicious of the find. (The earliest possible existence of the Koran is about 2000 years after Joseph.) But even if it isn't Koranic, I'm troubled then by the nonplussed attitude of the author here regarding this name. Joseph does get an Egyptian name in the Bible but it is Zaphenath-paneah, which is just a rendering of the Hebrew in Roman letters, and doesn't appear to me to be at all close to Saba Sabani.

ML/NJ

23 posted on 09/25/2009 11:02:29 AM PDT by ml/nj
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To: sr4402

“The coins come in different sizes and are made of different materials, including ivory, precious stones, copper, silver, gold, etc.”

You can’t stamp or press images on precious stones, can you? Maybe ivory if it was softened in an acid bath.

I do understand how precious stones can be coins.


24 posted on 09/25/2009 11:03:42 AM PDT by bvw
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To: bvw
You can’t stamp or press images on precious stones, can you?

No, they would be carved.

If the stones have been painted or the cuts are fresh in any way - fakes.

25 posted on 09/25/2009 11:15:36 AM PDT by sr4402
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To: TenthAmendmentChampion

re: bore the name of Egypt, a date, and a value

A date? That’s interesting. I wonder how they dated something in those days. I hope it didn’t say something like 1,200 BC.

Seriously, how were dates described that long ago?


26 posted on 09/25/2009 11:54:07 AM PDT by jwparkerjr (God Bless America, and wake us up while you're about it!)
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To: ml/nj

In the Septuagint translation, Joseph’s Egyptian name is rendered Psonthomphanech (with the “e” being an eta rather than an epsilon and both “o”’s being omicrons).


27 posted on 09/25/2009 12:44:50 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: Verginius Rufus
In the Septuagint translation

I'm not sure what your point is. Even if the Greek transliteration is more faithful to the way ancient Hebrew was pronounced than the one I presented, it still is anything remotely close to Saba Sabani.

ML/NJ

28 posted on 09/25/2009 1:08:38 PM PDT by ml/nj
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To: TenthAmendmentChampion

But all that bible stuff is a bunch of myths. /sarcasm


29 posted on 09/25/2009 4:06:48 PM PDT by Rockitz (This isn't rocket science- follow the money and you'll find truth.)
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To: TenthAmendmentChampion

Forgeries.

Coins were an invention of the Lydians c.700 BC, over 700 years later than Joseph, and their use spread from there. Had coins been an earlier invention, their earlier use would have been ubiquitous.

(I have a fair acquaintance with numismatics.)


30 posted on 09/25/2009 4:11:06 PM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Give Them Liberty Or Give Them Death! - IT'S ISLAM, STUPID! - Islam Delenda Est! - Rumble thee forth)
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To: TenthAmendmentChampion
But surprisingly, Koranic verses indicate clearly that coins were used in Egypt in the time of Joseph.

That is because Muhammad was ignorant that coins were an invention of the Lydians 700 years later.
31 posted on 09/25/2009 4:15:32 PM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Give Them Liberty Or Give Them Death! - IT'S ISLAM, STUPID! - Islam Delenda Est! - Rumble thee forth)
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To: Kenny Bunk
Here are two 'splanations. One is theirs ~ God handed down the Koran through an Archangel to Mohammed ~ at roughly a page at a time rate.

They believe a perfect version of the Koran rests in Heaven, and any time it might be lost on Earth (which they don't believe can happen, but who knows) it can be readily copied over for a re-release.

Now, the other explanation ~ the Koran is made up of information derived from many sources, one of which was a Missionary's Handbook (in Aramaic) written in Damascus for the purpose of Chritianizing the Arabs of Mecca. There are also references to pagan traditions found in the book. And even more startling the builders (in Damascus after its conquest by the Arabs from Mecca and Medina, and after Mohammad's death) had in their hands a copy (possibly in Aramaic, but most likely in Hebrew) of a very old but divergent Torah.

As you know Jews bury used and worn Torahs the same way they do human bodies. Out in the desert country around Mecca there are probably still lots of Torahs buried away for the future.

The one that ended up being referenced by the Koran just happened to have a depth of information about Joseph.

Which is why a devout, serious Moslem in Egypt can have faith that the Koran is not going to mislead him regarding the materials discussed in the revealed parts of the text.

Now, for Jews and Christians, we can accept Joseph as a fiction in a religious pagent, or as a real man who went from a hole in the ground ~ abandoned and betrayed by his own kinsmen ~ to the righthand of Pharoah!

This discovery, if true, appears to support the Biblical story.

32 posted on 09/25/2009 6:53:41 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide
Gee whiz, bronze coins were in use in Mesopotamia and down into the Valley of Egypt as early as 2000 BC. Joseph came along about 1700 BCE.

The Lydians supposedly made the first coins made out of Eletrum, a naturally occuring compound of silver, gold, copper and other metals.

Making the "first Electrum coin" is not the same as making the "first coin".

Still, there's a school of thought that wants to argue that Lydian gold buttons actually constitute the world's first coins ~ and they also argue that the small cast copper bulls or ceramic bulls invented in Sumer about 7,000 years ago (even before the first writing) were not really "money" ~ just a way of making accounts ~ even though you could swap a small cast copper or ceramic bull with the tax collector to meet your obligations to the government.

I know, it sounds like coins, and the way we use them, but for some people those items were more like federal reserve notes!

I'd like to propose aneven earlier version of "coinage". This was made simply by tieing down 5 inch logs in the bed of a stream where gold was known to appear. You'd leave them there several years and come back when the logs had become fully waterlogged and were beginning to disintegrate into pulp.

While you were away the logs would have been banging against any dirt drifting downstream and knocking the heavier gold particles loose.

They'd be piled up in the bottom of the stream under the log.

You would simply shovel the pulp and near bottom out, lay it out to dry on a riverbank, and then roll it up and cart it away to be cut into chunks you could "spend" later. That early paper would be full of gold flakes. To get the gold you'd just light up the chunk. Instant value AND hence the expression "burn money".

33 posted on 09/25/2009 7:21:26 PM PDT by muawiyah
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34 posted on 09/25/2009 7:31:43 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/__Since Jan 3, 2004__Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
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To: muawiyah

First, you have to know what a coin is. The numismatic definition, as stated in Webster’s is, “A small piece of metal, usually flat and circular, authorized by a government for use as money.” Another attribute not in Webster’s but usually associated with coins is that they have a standardized value. (and weight when most coins were of precious metal and worth that weight in metal as minted) That distinguishes a coin from medals and other bits of metal or other materials valued strictly by weight or other intrinsic characteristics.

The first coins imprinted with identifying marks by a government to be used as a standard medium of exchange were from Lydia in the 8th Century BC. All other “money” or medium of exchange before that was privately made and the design on it, if any, carried no significance.

That said, there was nothing issued by governments and therefore images glorifying the head of state or other officials would have been completely meaningless and pointless.


35 posted on 09/25/2009 11:10:30 PM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Give Them Liberty Or Give Them Death! - IT'S ISLAM, STUPID! - Islam Delenda Est! - Rumble thee forth)
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide
You're trying to force a modern definition of coins on ancient devices that may well appear to deviate from current standards.

That doesn't mean they weren't coins.

Besides, today's coins are put together out of materials of no significant intrinisc value.

A good match for what we mean by coins today probably first occurred in the Shang dynasty. Those are the guys who developed the first known writing system in China proper.

Try: http://chinesecoins.lyq.dk/History/Coin_history_Shang_to_Warring_States.htm

36 posted on 09/26/2009 1:07:47 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
Besides, today's coins are put together out of materials of no significant intrinisc value.

Wrong again. The metal in cents (98% zinc since 1982 and 95% copper before that) and nickels (25% nickel/75% copper) has been worth more than face value much of the last decade. (Federal law prevents their overt melting.) The metal in quarters (~90% copper/~10% nickel) is worth about 10 cents.
37 posted on 09/26/2009 4:48:08 PM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Give Them Liberty Or Give Them Death! - IT'S ISLAM, STUPID! - Islam Delenda Est! - Rumble thee forth)
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To: rdl6989

· join list or digest · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post a topic · subscribe ·

 
Gods
Graves
Glyphs
Thanks rdl6989. Just adding to the catalog, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
 

·Dogpile · Archaeologica · ArchaeoBlog · Archaeology · Biblical Archaeology Society ·
· Discover · Nat Geographic · Texas AM Anthro News · Yahoo Anthro & Archaeo · Google ·
· The Archaeology Channel · Excerpt, or Link only? · cgk's list of ping lists ·


38 posted on 09/26/2009 8:55:53 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/__Since Jan 3, 2004__Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
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To: Red Badger
"I’D BE ALARMED TOO!..................."

I don't wish to sound like an alarmist or some kind of end-of-time nut but it may well pay to be alarmed now. Ask yourself what could be the meaning behind rediscovery of these coins during a time when many people are storing food in a big way.

Many people will accept this as a sign and intensify their food storage efforts.

39 posted on 09/27/2009 12:00:24 PM PDT by Errant (`)
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