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Supreme Court Hears Mojave Cross Case
ABC News ^ | October 7, 2009 | Ariane de Vogue

Posted on 10/07/2009 1:53:57 PM PDT by La Enchiladita

Deep in the heart of the Mojave National Preserve in California stands a five foot cross carefully disguised in a plywood box.

The U.S. Park Service was forced to cover the cross until the Supreme Court decides whether the cross can remain in its place as a monument to fallen soldiers during World War I, or whether it must come down because its presence violates the Constitution.

The case is the latest in a recent flurry of challenges to religious symbols placed on public property.

The cross was constructed more than 70 years ago by the Veterans of Foreign Wars.

...Frank Buono, a retired National Park Service employee, expressed his dismay that the government was showing favoritism of one religious symbol over another.

...In 2003 Congress found a novel way to deal with the situation: it passed legislation to transfer the land to private ownership.

...Lawyers for Buono say that the proposed transfer is merely a sham and an ineffective way to try to get around the constitutional violation. They argue that although the land might be transferred to private hands -- owned by the Veterans of Foreign Wars -- the government still has too close a relationship to the cross. The cross would still be designated as a national memorial and the government will maintain oversight of the property.

...Before even reaching the question of whether Congress acted appropriately, the Supreme Court will first have to decide whether Buono has the right -- or the legal "standing" -- to bring the case against the government.

(Excerpt) Read more at abcnews.go.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Front Page News; News/Current Events; US: California
KEYWORDS: cross; firstamendment; lawsuit; mojave; mojavecross; scotus; vfw
Damn the ACLU, just damn them.
1 posted on 10/07/2009 1:53:57 PM PDT by La Enchiladita
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To: La Enchiladita
Can we put a tarp over -9bama? I mean, just until the US Supreme court determines that he is eligible to be president, of course.


2 posted on 10/07/2009 1:58:18 PM PDT by C210N (A patriot for a Conservative Renaissance!)
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To: La Enchiladita

When they ignore,”...the free exercise thereof...”.
When they ignore, “...shall not be infringed.”.
Their time is up.


3 posted on 10/07/2009 1:58:27 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: La Enchiladita

WWWLD?


4 posted on 10/07/2009 1:59:25 PM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: La Enchiladita

>>Damn the ACLU, just damn them.

I’m fairly certain that they already are.


5 posted on 10/07/2009 2:00:32 PM PDT by Bryanw92 (Question O-thority!)
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To: La Enchiladita
The U.S. Park Service was forced to cover the cross until the Supreme Court decides whether the cross can remain in its place as a monument to fallen soldiers during World War I, or whether it must come down because its presence violates the Constitution.

Because the Constitution says: "Congress shall stamp out all religious expression in public".

Oh wait, it doesn't.

6 posted on 10/07/2009 2:04:08 PM PDT by dan1123 (Gov't Healthcare Plan: Break it and Take it.)
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To: dan1123

Because the no-god God is the official state religion. You can follow another faith, but the official position of the government is that god does NOT exist.


7 posted on 10/07/2009 2:05:27 PM PDT by a fool in paradise (There is no truth in the Pravda Media.)
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To: dan1123

“A monument to fallen soldiers.” It’s not a church.


8 posted on 10/07/2009 2:06:13 PM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: La Enchiladita

I fail to see how this impinges upon the Constitution. A cross neither establishes a Govermental religion, and the Gov’t insisting upon the removal of this landmark certainly falls under the ‘preventing the free exercise thereof’.


9 posted on 10/07/2009 2:06:14 PM PDT by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: La Enchiladita

I fully expect the court to rule that the cross should come down, but not because of “separation of church and state”, which they will assiduously avoid (hey, I think that’s the first time I ever actually used that word!).

I imagine that they will say that the veterans who put up the cross (in 1934, I believe) had no permission to do so, and so it should never have been there in the first place.


10 posted on 10/07/2009 2:08:51 PM PDT by SandWMan ( I'm still trying to find the section in the Constitution that mentions "nation building".......)
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To: Buckeye McFrog

Spell it out. I don’t get the acronym.


11 posted on 10/07/2009 2:10:20 PM PDT by La Enchiladita (GO DODGERS!!! ALL THE WAY!!!)
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To: La Enchiladita
Folks, how long are we going to endure our oppressive Government?
12 posted on 10/07/2009 2:11:29 PM PDT by Ben Mugged (Unions are the storm troopers of socialism.)
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To: La Enchiladita
Funny, we never heard anything from the ACLU when Xlinton took 2 sticks and formed a cross on the beach!

THAT OFFENDED ME!

13 posted on 10/07/2009 2:14:41 PM PDT by unixfox (The 13th Amendment Abolished Slavery, The 16th Amendment Reinstated It !)
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To: La Enchiladita

I’m just guessing....

What
Will
Wise
Latina
Do


14 posted on 10/07/2009 2:16:11 PM PDT by digger48
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To: SandWMan
The question before the court, as I understand it, is whether this individual has standing to bring this case.

The court must decide whether Buono is sufficiently harmed by the matter at hand to be able to bring the case.

He lives in Oregon, several hundred miles away from the remote location of the cross in the CA desert. Yet he claims he must travel to the area 3-4 times per year and somehow try to avoid viewing the cross. Of course, it is now covered up AND it is on private land.

If the Supreme Court finds that Buono has no standing, it may never get to the question of whether Congress succeeded in avoiding the constitutional question by transferring the land.

15 posted on 10/07/2009 2:16:26 PM PDT by La Enchiladita (GO DODGERS!!! ALL THE WAY!!!)
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To: La Enchiladita

The cross is on private land?


16 posted on 10/07/2009 2:18:07 PM PDT by SandWMan ( I'm still trying to find the section in the Constitution that mentions "nation building".......)
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To: La Enchiladita

A cross on church property is okay, but allowing a cross display on public property is “respecting an establishment of religion” and a violation ot the First Amendment.


17 posted on 10/07/2009 2:18:13 PM PDT by OldNavyVet
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To: La Enchiladita

Jesus said there would come a time when the Word would be hidden...people too ashamed of their own actions to confront the Truth of the cross. Go ahead...cover it, or tear it down.

Soon the government will be coming after Christians. There are already courts in Canada when people of religious beliefs are confronted by government bureaucrats and forced to recant their public religious views...or face fines or imprisonment.

It is just a matter of a few years...it will be so here too


18 posted on 10/07/2009 2:19:56 PM PDT by kjo
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To: OldNavyVet

Read the article. Congress voted to transfer the land to private hands.


19 posted on 10/07/2009 2:22:19 PM PDT by La Enchiladita (GO DODGERS!!! ALL THE WAY!!!)
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To: La Enchiladita

This is the aCLU displaying its hatred of Christians and God. It is the Mother of all Hate Crimes. These piggies were offered a piece of land five times bigger in size for this one little piece of land. That wasn’t good enough for the Christian haters. They want God and all Christians gone. They are not compatible with the aCLU’s perverted, communist lifestyle.


20 posted on 10/07/2009 2:22:48 PM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (America! We're spending our grandchildren's inheritance!)
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To: La Enchiladita

Maybe we can claim it isn’t a cross-cross.


21 posted on 10/07/2009 2:24:35 PM PDT by Carley (OBAMA IS A MALEVOLENT FORCE IN THE WORLD)
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To: Carley

You gave me a smile. Just look at how complicated and convoluted this “case” has become. For 60 years, the cross was on display and no one complained until this Buono guy came along. And, oh yeah, he happens to be ACLU. For them, it’s two-fer: nail the Christians and the military. We are no longer a “free country” when we have so-called cases like this going to the Supreme Court.


22 posted on 10/07/2009 2:31:55 PM PDT by La Enchiladita (GO DODGERS!!! ALL THE WAY!!!)
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To: La Enchiladita

Buona was put in place for the specific purpose of attacking the cross.


23 posted on 10/07/2009 2:46:02 PM PDT by Carley (OBAMA IS A MALEVOLENT FORCE IN THE WORLD)
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To: massgopguy
“A monument to fallen soldiers.” It’s not a church.

Hence my use of the term "religious expression".

24 posted on 10/07/2009 2:47:33 PM PDT by dan1123 (Gov't Healthcare Plan: Break it and Take it.)
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To: a fool in paradise
the official position of the government is that god does NOT exist.

Which makes the Free-exercise clause one of the most ignored parts of the Constitution.

25 posted on 10/07/2009 2:49:43 PM PDT by dan1123 (Gov't Healthcare Plan: Break it and Take it.)
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To: tet68

Perfectly said.


26 posted on 10/07/2009 2:59:36 PM PDT by Jacquerie (An elective despotism was not the government we fought for - James Madison)
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To: La Enchiladita
I'm hoping I can get the ACLU to help me. You see, there are two keys on my keyboard that have little crosses on them. One is beside the "Backspace" key and the other is above the "Enter" key on the number pad. These keys offend me and lots of government employees have similar keyboards. Thus, the government is promoting Christianity through its choice of computer equipment. This must stop!!

OK, so is my hypothetical case stronger or weaker than the "offended" malcontent that dislikes an old memorial in the desert? Maybe it isn't a cross but a "plus" sign and they are indicating "VETERANS +1" as a show of support. I can only hope they just call the complaintant an idiot and bill him for wasting years of everyone's time.
27 posted on 10/07/2009 3:00:32 PM PDT by philled (A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.-- GB Shaw)
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To: La Enchiladita
We are no longer a “free country” when we have so-called cases like this going to the Supreme Court.

Yes, the Left has determined the playing field. We can only dance around the edges of this settled, unconstitutional law.

28 posted on 10/07/2009 3:06:16 PM PDT by Jacquerie (An elective despotism was not the government we fought for - James Madison)
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To: Ben Mugged

Exactly. How long will we endure this government oppression? This crap won’t stop until they go to remove it, and are met with too many citizens, too well armed, to deal with without embarrassment.

Dig in a perimeter around that hill and hang a flag. “Come and take it”.


29 posted on 10/07/2009 3:08:20 PM PDT by DesertRhino (Dogs earn thi title of "man's best friend", Muslims hate dogs,,add that up.)
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To: AdmSmith; Berosus; bigheadfred; Convert from ECUSA; dervish; Ernest_at_the_Beach; Fred Nerks; ...
Deep in the heart of the Mojave National Preserve in California stands a five foot cross carefully disguised in a plywood box. The U.S. Park Service was forced to cover the cross until the Supreme Court decides whether the cross can remain in its place as a monument to fallen soldiers during World War I, or whether it must come down because its presence violates the Constitution.

30 posted on 10/07/2009 3:08:45 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/__Since Jan 3, 2004__Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
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To: La Enchiladita

>> Yet he claims he must travel to the area 3-4 times per year and somehow try to avoid viewing the cross.

And yet this POS has managed to force the rest of the Country to suffer and pay for his selfish indignation.


31 posted on 10/07/2009 3:29:54 PM PDT by Gene Eric
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To: La Enchiladita
Before you know it, they are going to ban t's from the alphabet.

The fact that there was an injunction against the land swap that would have put this historical monument on private land, shows this to be pure harassment.

32 posted on 10/07/2009 4:21:42 PM PDT by World'sGoneInsane (LET NO ONE BE FORGOTTEN, LET NO ONE FORGET)
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To: digger48

Got a better idea ... What Would Patton Do?


33 posted on 10/07/2009 5:47:40 PM PDT by Fast Moving Angel (GOP: Stop listening, start doing -- we need new leaders!)
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To: Fast Moving Angel
Got a better idea ... What Would Patton Do?

"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.”

34 posted on 10/07/2009 5:55:31 PM PDT by digger48
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To: La Enchiladita
the aclu seems kinda like a self funded acorn
35 posted on 10/07/2009 6:07:42 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist *DTOM* -ww- I AM JIM THOMPSON!)
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To: La Enchiladita

This case and others like it are just surreal.

This just cannot be my country anymore.

Damn all lawyers, especially the ACLU.

When, how, where......do we stand up and reject this? When how and where can we make a stand against what’s happening in every niche of life? My God, this country is dying.


36 posted on 10/07/2009 6:10:08 PM PDT by bustinchops (Teddy ("The Hiccup") Kennedy - the original water-boarder)
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To: La Enchiladita

bookmark


37 posted on 10/07/2009 6:56:04 PM PDT by massmike (...So this is what happens when OJ's jury elects the president....)
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To: kjo
Jesus said there would come a time when the Word would be hidden...people too ashamed of their own actions to confront the Truth of the cross.

Can you point out where Jesus said anything at all about the cross?

The cross, which today is a ubiquitous symbol of Christianity did not come into use among Christians until the second century...

38 posted on 10/07/2009 7:25:04 PM PDT by CurlyDave
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To: OldNavyVet
So how did they get away with all the references to God on the building and monuments in Washington DC?
39 posted on 10/07/2009 7:48:26 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Romak 7.62X54MM, AK47 7.62X39MM, LARGO 9X23MM, HAPINESS IS A WARM GUN BANG BANG YEA YEA)
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To: a fool in paradise
...the official position of the government is that god does NOT exist.

The Constitutional position is that each American decides for themselves, and Congress stays out of it.

40 posted on 10/07/2009 8:14:18 PM PDT by HKMk23 (In the end, life contains only one tragedy: not to have been a saint.)
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To: HKMk23

Freedom OF Religion is not Freedom FROM Religion.

It imposes Atheism as the official stance (there is no god that can be spoken of except the No God god).

Clearly the founding fathers did not intend this. They made references to God in the Bill of Rights. Had they wanted “no references whatsoever” to God, they would have written that way.

Time was in Europe the populace had to convert from Catholicism to Protestantism to Catholicism to Protestantism depending on who was in power. In the muslim world, non-muslims pay a tax for following a different faith.

You can practice whatever faith with no penalty in this country. But it doesn’t mean that you can’t mention God in any official capacity if in doing so you are not establishing that faith as the Official State Religion.

The same restriction on advocating a faith also prohibits opposing it. The NEA funded art that is antiChristian is likewise prohibited under the “establishment” clause.


41 posted on 10/08/2009 7:23:13 AM PDT by a fool in paradise (There is no truth in the Pravda Media.)
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To: guitarplayer1953

Our forefathers’s thankfulness to, and reliance upon, a transcendental God is a wonderful inheritance for Americans.


42 posted on 10/08/2009 7:52:37 AM PDT by OldNavyVet
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To: Hodar

It’s not as tho any person of a different religious faith has been turned DOWN when they requested to put up an icon of their choice...I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m sure sick and tired of Christianity getting dumped on and restricted...especially since it seems the gov. has no problem looking the other way when various other religions are practicing their faith with nary a negative word from gov. or media...it’s beyond maddening....it is time for Our Lord to return,....I’m sure the patience of God has worn very thin, when it comes to this mixed up gov. of ours.


43 posted on 10/08/2009 10:14:37 AM PDT by Molly T. (Has this administration crossed YOUR line in the sand yet?)
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To: OldNavyVet
Public spaces should be "inclusive" of the religious beliefs of the community, not exclusive of ALL belief. If someone wants to put up a menorah, next to a crucifix, next to a Flying Spaghetti Monster...

I'm good with that.

44 posted on 10/08/2009 10:20:21 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (III)
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To: Dead Corpse

“Public spaces should be “inclusive” of the religious beliefs of the community”

Foolish, because it’s easier said than done.

Beliefs belong in church ...


45 posted on 10/08/2009 11:14:41 AM PDT by OldNavyVet
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To: OldNavyVet

My beliefs go where I do. Are you saying I need to leave them at home?


46 posted on 10/08/2009 11:20:46 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (III)
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To: SandWMan

Well, the Congress voted to transfer the land from public to private ownership, but according to post #32, there is a court injunction against doing so... imagine my surprise... so the land is in a kind of limbo.

Isn’t that some weird symbolism.


47 posted on 10/08/2009 12:00:23 PM PDT by La Enchiladita (GO DODGERS!!! ALL THE WAY!!!)
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To: Dead Corpse

According to the article, the flap started when this Buono guy proposed placing a Buddhist shrine at the memorial and was turned down. I’m not sure who did the turning down.

But, right there the case becomes invalid because instead of saying all and any religion should be removed from public land, they proposed that all or many should be represented.

I believe this is done in our National Cemeteries. Some headstones have crosses, some Stars of David, some a Buddhist symbol, etc.

I feel the court can only rightly say the appellant has no standing, i.e., throw the case out.


48 posted on 10/08/2009 12:04:45 PM PDT by La Enchiladita (GO DODGERS!!! ALL THE WAY!!!)
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To: CurlyDave

I didn’t say Jesus said “cross”...he said “Word”.


49 posted on 10/08/2009 12:39:01 PM PDT by kjo
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To: a fool in paradise

“Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.”

The Northwest Ordinance. It’s the Law.


50 posted on 10/08/2009 1:40:06 PM PDT by SandWMan ( I'm still trying to find the section in the Constitution that mentions "nation building".......)
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